My Gift To Mike - by Victoria14xs - A Review

[EmilyMiller]

The advice you gave me on the story you proof-read for me was phenomenal. Do not sell yourself short.

Thank you

However, in my opinion there is a big difference between offering critique and advice on a story that is still 'cooking' versus one that is complete, finalized, and posted to the website already. Especially since I am unlikely to make edits to something that's already up there, and I know that applies to many other authors as well.

See, I’m an anally retentive [insert cream-pie joke here]. I’ve posted edits with two words changed. Poor Laurel.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Come on... Anyone that can pull flibbertigibbet out and use it in perfect context has talent.

For playing Jeopardy maybe…

Em

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Anyway. Tired of banging my head against a brick wall. Flogging a dead horse. And so on…

I’ll let someone else take a shot. Or - most likely - complain that no one else does.

Going to do some writing.

Em

If we compare writing on Literotica as being similar to woodworking, we find that we have the garage hobbyist alongside retired carpenters, and even some legendary furniture builders.

One "woodworker" will see a piece crafted by someone else and admire their "joints" so much that they decide to emulate them. The problem frequently is, that the "joints" used on one woodworking project may not be the best for another. Without the knowledge of which "joints" work best in which types of projects, the woodwork might get completed, but not with the least amount of effort or quality of work to make it function as intended.

Just as in woodworking, writing employs elements, techniques, and devices that contribute to how a project is "built". As this thread and the example of Victoria's story shows us, literary review of another writers skills is not going to be appreciated by those who do not understand what they are looking at beyond the story itself.

This doesn't have to be "English Composition 101" for us to have polite conversations of what works in certain stories and what could work better. I know that I would welcome that sort of feedback on any of my stories here.

That side table might be pretty to look at, but is it constructed well enough to hold the weight of a lamp?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The advice you gave me on the story you proof-read for me was phenomenal. Do not sell yourself short.

However, in my opinion there is a big difference between offering critique and advice on a story that is still 'cooking' versus one that is complete, finalized, and posted to the website already. Especially since I am unlikely to make edits to something that's already up there, and I know that applies to many other authors as well.

If we compare writing on Literotica as being similar to woodworking, we find that we have the garage hobbyist alongside retired carpenters, and even some legendary furniture builders.

One "woodworker" will see a piece crafted by someone else and admire their "joints" so much that they decide to emulate them. The problem frequently is, that the "joints" used on one woodworking project may not be the best for another. Without the knowledge of which "joints" work best in which types of projects, the woodwork might get completed, but not with the least amount of effort or quality of work to make it function as intended.

Just as in woodworking, writing employs elements, techniques, and devices that contribute to how a project is "built". As this thread and the example of Victoria's story shows us, literary review of another writers skills is not going to be appreciated by those who do not understand what they are looking at beyond the story itself.

This doesn't have to be "English Composition 101" for us to have polite conversations of what works in certain stories and what could work better. I know that I would welcome that sort of feedback on any of my stories here.

That side table might be pretty to look at, but is it constructed well enough to hold the weight of a lamp?

Totally agree with the single caveat that sometimes the side table is built only to be admired and not to hold any weight at all...

It's the joy, the magic of the trip that entices me.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Totally agree with the single caveat that sometimes the side table is built only to be admired and not to hold any weight at all...

It's the joy, the magic of the trip that entices me.

...and that's a perfectly fine piece to build.
I just don't think that anyone should be criticized for attempting to improve their skill and to share that effort with others.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

...and that's a perfectly fine piece to build.
I just don't think that anyone should be criticized for attempting to improve their skill and to share that effort with others.

They we agree...

BTW, I have a wood shop, too.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Almost three full pages on this topic, but two of those at least are about why this is a touchy subject, why authors in general steer away from things like this, and if this thread should be in this or that forum
I guess my reply to @AG31 's question took the discussion in a certain direction.

My point was and still is that this is a good thread and that we need more threads discussing writing and stories. Even though there weren't many participants who talked about the actual story, there is useful feedback here and some good tips as well.

 

[Victoria14xs]

Couple things…
First, I would like to thank @EmilyMiller for thinking my story worthy of her “well-intentioned experiment.” Also, I’m thankful for the feedback that’s been offered. Thoughtful and constructive, it’s valuable stuff. Particularly given that it’s come from you all…people I‘ve come to respect as I largely lurk in the AH shadows.

I understand and respect the debate over the wheres and whethers and appropriateness of true literary criticism on Literotica. But, yeah, I’m BobbyBrandt’s hobbyist. 100%. I’m reminded of something my Grandpa used to say which applies: “…like a pig lookin’ at a wristwatch…” (me contemplating Harold Bloom).

I’m no author - at least not as I’ve come to self-define what it means to be a “real” author. It’s not that I’m uninterested in real literary criticism - quite the opposite. I’m just admitting that I’m not particularly well-equipped to receive it, having never really played in that world…

I wrote my ”Mike” story with something in mind though. As I try and digest the content of this thread I find myself wandering off in another direction. In terms of feedback there’s a range of possible types. From “hey, what did you think of my story?” to “please give me the full/dispassionate literary criticism treatment.” In between, is something that might appeal and it is this: “I intended to do X. Did I? How could I have better achieved X?”

I suspect this thread is running on fumes at this point but I’ll press on. Why not?

My intent (my X in this case) was simple and limited. I desperately wanted to communicate those moments - what it felt like to fall in love in the span of a single conversation. To go from perfectly fine to utterly, stupidly twitterpated, but constrained within a dead end, with no hope of a future. I wept as I wrote those tiny few moments, remembering them. I honestly had no idea the act of writing it down could bring it back that forcefully - that aspect crept up on me.

Freshly affected, my struggle was to find the words. Unrealistic as it may have been, I wanted the reader to feel/understand what I felt in those moments, some 20 years ago.**

In an ideal world I‘d now like to know whether I succeeded. Star ratings are nice, but they don’t explicitly answer the specific question, X. Maybe there’s a “lane” for this sort of thing on Lit? Maybe it’s already happening… Obviously, there’s no barrier to an author simply asking but I wonder if it could or should be encouraged as a routine thing for those not ready for the full-throated literary criticism treatment.

Enough. Back to lying low. Thanks again to Ms. Miller and all of you…

———————

**Lest anyone ask, yes, I’m aware of separate threads that warn of the dangers of hewing too closely to real-life experiences. Perhaps my story should be pulled. That would be ok really (Laurel, if you’re listening…). I did change the usual things.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Couple things…
First, I would like to thank @EmilyMiller for thinking my story worthy of her “well-intentioned experiment.” Also, I’m thankful for the feedback that’s been offered. Thoughtful and constructive, it’s valuable stuff. Particularly given that it’s come from you all…people I‘ve come to respect as I largely lurk in the AH shadows.

I understand and respect the debate over the wheres and whethers and appropriateness of true literary criticism on Literotica. But, yeah, I’m BobbyBrandt’s hobbyist. 100%. I’m reminded of something my Grandpa used to say which applies: “…like a pig lookin’ at a wristwatch…” (me contemplating Harold Bloom).

I’m no author - at least not as I’ve come to self-define what it means to be a “real” author. It’s not that I’m uninterested in real literary criticism - quite the opposite. I’m just admitting that I’m not particularly well-equipped to receive it, having never really played in that world…

I wrote my ”Mike” story with something in mind though. As I try and digest the content of this thread I find myself wandering off in another direction. In terms of feedback there’s a range of possible types. From “hey, what did you think of my story?” to “please give me the full/dispassionate literary criticism treatment.” In between, is something that might appeal and it is this: “I intended to do X. Did I? How could I have better achieved X?”

I suspect this thread is running on fumes at this point but I’ll press on. Why not?

My intent (my X in this case) was simple and limited. I desperately wanted to communicate those moments - what it felt like to fall in love in the span of a single conversation. To go from perfectly fine to utterly, stupidly twitterpated, but constrained within a dead end, with no hope of a future. I wept as I wrote those tiny few moments, remembering them. I honestly had no idea the act of writing it down could bring it back that forcefully - that aspect crept up on me.

Freshly affected, my struggle was to find the words. Unrealistic as it may have been, I wanted the reader to feel/understand what I felt in those moments, some 20 years ago.**

In an ideal world I‘d now like to know whether I succeeded. Star ratings are nice, but they don’t explicitly answer the specific question, X. Maybe there’s a “lane” for this sort of thing on Lit? Maybe it’s already happening… Obviously, there’s no barrier to an author simply asking but I wonder if it could or should be encouraged as a routine thing for those not ready for the full-throated literary criticism treatment.

Enough. Back to lying low. Thanks again to Ms. Miller and all of you…

———————

**Lest anyone ask, yes, I’m aware of separate threads that warn of the dangers of hewing too closely to real-life experiences. Perhaps my story should be pulled. That would be ok really (Laurel, if you’re listening…). I did change the usual things.

Sorry to drag you out of the shadows. As you know I think it’s a beautiful short story. And the emotion shines through.

Em

 

[Devinter]

My intent (my X in this case) was simple and limited. I desperately wanted to communicate those moments - what it felt like to fall in love in the span of a single conversation. To go from perfectly fine to utterly, stupidly twitterpated, but constrained within a dead end, with no hope of a future.

You definitely did that. You painted that scene in particular very vividly.

I also found your work educational because before reading it I had no idea that a woman displaying her feet in a certain way could be almost like a woman walking into a room topless to a foot fetishist, among a few other examples. I thought the way you painted that up was extremely valuable to the story and helped those of us who didn't share in the fetish understand it better and clearer, which is something I actually wrote down in my "helpful tips" notepad after finishing your work. Explaining a fetish in a way that doesn't feel at all patronizing, and that actually moves the story forward, to get a greater reader inclusion. Magnificently done.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Couple things…
First, I would like to thank @EmilyMiller for thinking my story worthy of her “well-intentioned experiment.” Also, I’m thankful for the feedback that’s been offered. Thoughtful and constructive, it’s valuable stuff. Particularly given that it’s come from you all…people I‘ve come to respect as I largely lurk in the AH shadows.

I understand and respect the debate over the wheres and whethers and appropriateness of true literary criticism on Literotica. But, yeah, I’m BobbyBrandt’s hobbyist. 100%. I’m reminded of something my Grandpa used to say which applies: “…like a pig lookin’ at a wristwatch…” (me contemplating Harold Bloom).

I’m no author - at least not as I’ve come to self-define what it means to be a “real” author. It’s not that I’m uninterested in real literary criticism - quite the opposite. I’m just admitting that I’m not particularly well-equipped to receive it, having never really played in that world…

I wrote my ”Mike” story with something in mind though. As I try and digest the content of this thread I find myself wandering off in another direction. In terms of feedback there’s a range of possible types. From “hey, what did you think of my story?” to “please give me the full/dispassionate literary criticism treatment.” In between, is something that might appeal and it is this: “I intended to do X. Did I? How could I have better achieved X?”

I suspect this thread is running on fumes at this point but I’ll press on. Why not?

My intent (my X in this case) was simple and limited. I desperately wanted to communicate those moments - what it felt like to fall in love in the span of a single conversation. To go from perfectly fine to utterly, stupidly twitterpated, but constrained within a dead end, with no hope of a future. I wept as I wrote those tiny few moments, remembering them. I honestly had no idea the act of writing it down could bring it back that forcefully - that aspect crept up on me.

Freshly affected, my struggle was to find the words. Unrealistic as it may have been, I wanted the reader to feel/understand what I felt in those moments, some 20 years ago.**

In an ideal world I‘d now like to know whether I succeeded. Star ratings are nice, but they don’t explicitly answer the specific question, X. Maybe there’s a “lane” for this sort of thing on Lit? Maybe it’s already happening… Obviously, there’s no barrier to an author simply asking but I wonder if it could or should be encouraged as a routine thing for those not ready for the full-throated literary criticism treatment.

Enough. Back to lying low. Thanks again to Ms. Miller and all of you…

———————

**Lest anyone ask, yes, I’m aware of separate threads that warn of the dangers of hewing too closely to real-life experiences. Perhaps my story should be pulled. That would be ok really (Laurel, if you’re listening…). I did change the usual things.

I think it's great that you chimed in as well and I applaud your courage and enthusiasm, truly. Since you were so honest here, I feel I should return the favor. The story is very emotional and personal. And that is the problem in a certain way. It is hard to be brutally honest about something so emotional and personal, especially since it comes from someone whom I perceive as a nice and kind person.
What I mean by that is that I have plenty of criticism to offer that would make me feel like an asshole, to be completely honest with you. It could be that the problem is in my mind only and that you would be very receptive to such honest criticism, but my own experiences tell me that is rarely the case, so I hope you can understand the reluctance. If you hadn't made that long and honest post, I would have probably kept my silence, but your honesty resonated with me, so I offered some in return.

 

[Victoria14xs]

I think it's great that you chimed in as well and I applaud your courage and enthusiasm, truly. Since you were so honest here, I feel I should return the favor. The story is very emotional and personal. And that is the problem in a certain way. It is hard to be brutally honest about something so emotional and personal, especially since it comes from someone whom I perceive as a nice and kind person.
What I mean by that is that I have plenty of criticism to offer that would make me feel like an asshole, to be completely honest with you. It could be that the problem is in my mind only and that you would be very receptive to such honest criticism, but my own experiences tell me that is rarely the case, so I hope you can understand the reluctance. If you hadn't made that long and honest post, I would have probably kept my silence, but your honesty resonated with me, so I offered some in return.

Um…I realize “the move” here would be to say, yes, hit me with it! I’m a courageous woman who can take it!! But we’re being honest (thank you for that btw) and I’m frankly a little unsure having never been the object of this sort of thing (the dispassionate criticism treatment). I’ve more than a little ‘field mouse‘ in me…

 

[Devinter]

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Um…I realize “the move” here would be to say, yes, hit me with it! I’m a courageous woman who can take it!! But we’re being honest (thank you for that btw) and I’m frankly a little unsure having never been the object of this sort of thing (the dispassionate criticism treatment). I’ve more than a little ‘field mouse‘ in me…

I understand, believe me. I also want you to know that I didn't hate your story, if that was the impression you got.
By the way, I am a footguy myself, and I want you to know I recognized myself immediately in the reflex you described - the way we make a quick glance down when we see an attractive woman. Spot on

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Couple things…
First, I would like to thank @EmilyMiller for thinking my story worthy of her “well-intentioned experiment.” Also, I’m thankful for the feedback that’s been offered. Thoughtful and constructive, it’s valuable stuff. Particularly given that it’s come from you all…people I‘ve come to respect as I largely lurk in the AH shadows.

I understand and respect the debate over the wheres and whethers and appropriateness of true literary criticism on Literotica. But, yeah, I’m BobbyBrandt’s hobbyist. 100%. I’m reminded of something my Grandpa used to say which applies: “…like a pig lookin’ at a wristwatch…” (me contemplating Harold Bloom).

I’m no author - at least not as I’ve come to self-define what it means to be a “real” author. It’s not that I’m uninterested in real literary criticism - quite the opposite. I’m just admitting that I’m not particularly well-equipped to receive it, having never really played in that world…

I wrote my ”Mike” story with something in mind though. As I try and digest the content of this thread I find myself wandering off in another direction. In terms of feedback there’s a range of possible types. From “hey, what did you think of my story?” to “please give me the full/dispassionate literary criticism treatment.” In between, is something that might appeal and it is this: “I intended to do X. Did I? How could I have better achieved X?”

I suspect this thread is running on fumes at this point but I’ll press on. Why not?

My intent (my X in this case) was simple and limited. I desperately wanted to communicate those moments - what it felt like to fall in love in the span of a single conversation. To go from perfectly fine to utterly, stupidly twitterpated, but constrained within a dead end, with no hope of a future. I wept as I wrote those tiny few moments, remembering them. I honestly had no idea the act of writing it down could bring it back that forcefully - that aspect crept up on me.

Freshly affected, my struggle was to find the words. Unrealistic as it may have been, I wanted the reader to feel/understand what I felt in those moments, some 20 years ago.**

In an ideal world I‘d now like to know whether I succeeded. Star ratings are nice, but they don’t explicitly answer the specific question, X. Maybe there’s a “lane” for this sort of thing on Lit? Maybe it’s already happening… Obviously, there’s no barrier to an author simply asking but I wonder if it could or should be encouraged as a routine thing for those not ready for the full-throated literary criticism treatment.

Enough. Back to lying low. Thanks again to Ms. Miller and all of you…

———————

**Lest anyone ask, yes, I’m aware of separate threads that warn of the dangers of hewing too closely to real-life experiences. Perhaps my story should be pulled. That would be ok really (Laurel, if you’re listening…). I did change the usual things.

I mentioned in my earlier post that your story was not "my cup of tea", but I was able enjoy it due to the way you constructed it so skillfully. You may be a novice at writing, but you are demonstrating literary abilities far beyond those of a "hobbyist", even if you're not aware of doing so. You have my permission to write a story about my feet anytime.

Threads such as this will be most beneficial when there is an accepted distinction between a review of what a story was about versus discussions on how a story was written.

 

[AG31]

The second is about the transition scene, where Mike makes his confession to the narrator. I think it could have benefitted from making the dialogue a little choppier. Maybe some more pauses, or otherwise "His words came out in a rush, as if he'd rehearsed them". It's all a bit too smooth, which paradoxically makes the scene a bit awkward, and it stands out because everywhere else the story reads very naturally.

As for the dialogue, it didn't strike me as "off," but neither did it have that ring of authenticity that a few authors can generate.

I thought about Mike's "voice" a bit more and I'm grateful to StillStunned for coming up with concrete suggestions. It was striking to me how just a little bit of dialogue could represent a slight drop in the tension of the story. There was certainly nothing "bad" about his phrasing. I certainly wouldn't lay the "no ear for dialogue" criticism on it. But I kept thinking, "Is this really exactly what he said?" If it is then it's an interesting learning experience for writers. Real people may not talk in really convincing ways. If any of you out there think you could improve on this little bit to make the story a perfect gem, how about posting your suggestions here?

 

[AG31]

To review the review, I don’t see what is so authorly about this that it couldn’t be in story feedback forum. “Well written,” “I thought that this was hot and I don’t usually,” and “I wish there was more” are maybe the top three positive comment types on Lit in general. If it was “see how cleverly this framing device is used here” or something then yeah, maybe, perhaps, but… it wasn’t.

It seems to me there are more substantive comments here. Perhaps they came in after you posted this?

 

[AG31]

This should respect the story for what it is. No comments like "I hate strokers" or "if it isn't at least six pages it's not a proper story" or "I don't like I/T. It should be about technical aspects: whether a piece of imagery worked, whether a particular scene is believable or not, whether the characters are consistent.

I heartily endorse this. Well said.

But I would really like to get reactions/suggestions from multiple people about my stories. Even very negative reviews have resulted in little tweeks that have got me up to version 9 for one of my books on Smashwords. (I don't update here so as not to clog the pipeline).

 

[AG31]

Do what you will, it’s not up to me anyway. I don’t see how this beginning was discussing the craft but maybe some other ones will.

I thought this was sort of crafty...

 

[AG31]

Please don’t deprive her of her agency.

Well said!!!!

 

[AG31]

First, and foremost, thank you for starting this thread. I, for one, would like to see more serious discussions on literary aspects of stories versus simple "reviews", which typically address the story more than how it was constructed.

I believe that the exposition was a bit "choppy" because it combined background plot information with a sort of author's note/disclaimer.

There were also a couple of typos (as instead of am, when instead of went) that caused me pause, but these were not insurmountable.

Of particular note for me was Victoria's use of allusion, both directly and indirectly. The story's setting was well established, the characterization was well executed, the recurring use of the word "perfect as a motif worked well, the use of symbolism was skillful and appropriate, and the lack of denouement left me wanting more. Even though it's not "my cup of tea", both the tone of the story and the theme fit well with the particular kink.

All in all, I think that this story sits as a good example of literary skill which other writers should attempt to emulate.

Thanks for this. It's the sort of critique I'd be looking for, even though I don't agree with some of your opinions. That's fine. One thing one learns if they're fortunate enough to collect multiple reviews is that some things just hit some people one way and other people another way and that will never change.

 

[AG31]

I’m undecided. Part of me mostly agrees with omenainen, there’s already a board for that. The name here, “authors hangout” implies a recreational setting, talk about whatever, amongst authors, whereas the name “story feedback” implies a more specific and focused sub-topic.

So, metaphorically, the book club meeting happens in the story feedback board, and the authors hangout is the bar we may go to before or afterwards. For socializing, joviality, barroom brawls, etc. (We even have a patron who starts fights and gets beaten up outside bars in real life! But I digress. ;-)

The other part of me says, any topic is fine. It’s authors, hanging out. Let freedom reign, rain, and be unreined and unrestrained.

I'd be happy to have this sort of thread take off in Feedback. The unfortunate fact, as far as I can tell, is that you're more likely to get replies here than in Feedback. I wonder if the description of the forum has something to do with that, since it sounds like it's for people to post opinions, not for authors to request feedback. Here it is:
https://forum.literotica.com/forums/story-feedback.1/post-thread
"Post your feedback about Literotica stories you love or hate!"

I was happy to discover the @AwkwardMD/@Omenainen thread, although I think I've joined @EmilyMiller on their "naughty" list.

 

[AG31]

There was a sub-thread here having to do with authors' feelings about being criticized. I had toyed with the idea of saying that once you publish a story, you've opened yourself up to any and all reactions. But I guess here in AH we could establish expectations, if not rules. And one is, don't initiate a discussion of a story unless the author agrees to it, (as this author very definitely did... Remember @EmilyMiller's reminder that @Victoria14xs has agency.

But I hope the existence of people who are more "field mousey" than I am won't keep us from creating a structure where authors can say, "Tell me whatever you think! It's all interesting to me!"

On average, authors don't take criticism well, that is my experience at least.

But most of us here are vain creatures and many would interpret criticism as a form of rivalry or a jab at our writing,

It's one thing to put your own story into the spotlight, accepting that it will come under fire in one way or another. It's a completely different thing if someone else just throws my story up there and then people start throwing their 2 cent coins at my face.

so if I show up with a "Great story, but have you considered X.." I'd probably just get a "Who the fuck are you?"

The main problem I see with this is that it is not the author of the story who has put it forward. Even when Emily asked for a permission to review it, it’s still throwing somebody else out in the open with “come everybody and scrutinize this piece of writing,” which could go well or then not.

 

[AG31]

It is. That’s what he said as best as I can remember after all this time. It was a like a speech. And while I never asked him, I’m pretty certain how it came to pass.
He had been rolling around words in his head for weeks before he spoke them to me. Or maybe fragments or phrases, certainly images. I’m certain he had zero intent to share it. He just wasn’t that guy. Why polish up a speech you never intend to give?

But the gut punch of discovering his wife’s emotional infidelity turned his world upside down. I think his decision to unburden himself was an impulsive one— as in, i really doubt he drove to work that morning thinking, ‘I’ll tell Victoria how I feel today…” It just happened - after we’d held one another, for the first time. Or maybe it was extemporaneous. I just kinda doubt it. Again, I think he’d been having thoughts.

And so this otherwise very articulate man stumbled through it, baring his soul, dumping it all in one halting go.
If his little speech came off as awkward, that’s me failing to rise to the task…

So now we have our answer. Real people don't talk like authors want them to. BTW, the problem is not at all awkwardness. Awkwardness is true! And it's not a big problem. And it may only be a problem in my and @StillStunned's minds. Interesting authorial problem, though.

 

[AG31]

Sorry to drag you out of the shadows. As you know I think it’s a beautiful short story. And the emotion shines through.

Em

Don't be sorry! She didn't sound sorry, and she wasn't dragged. As you said, she has agency.