Noticed a nasty trend with the loving wives catagory

[pink_silk_glove]

Excuse me, but I write the majority of my stories to post there, so I do stand up for the status quo!

Well you accuse me of renaming the category for selfish reasons, yet you refuse to fix a clearly broken section of the site (it was not intended to foster and nurture a community of misogyny) for your own personal reasons.

The only thing that I'm asking for here is a simple name change, although I would support separating the category since it is very large and covers many aspects that could easily be subdivided making it easier for readers to find such stories. Just as I would support separating several categories that are too broad in that way at this time.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't think that "just don't write them that way" is a defensible position. This is a real issue. I'm not saying that that is your position, but it is one I have seen before and can anticipate someone offering again.

I agree and I said so above.

Some people will try to tell you that you need to post a certain way and others will tell you that you need to post a different way. My advice is to post your work wherever you feel that it best fits.

As BobbyBrandt said above, YES, category jumping with a series is wrong!

I completely disagree. I might advise that category hopping will likely damage your score to some degree, so bear that in mind, but it is not at all wrong.

My current work in progress is 7 chapters to be posted in 7 different categories. I'm having a ton of fun with it and I'm sure a handful of people will like it and the rest will hate it, especially all the category hopping, but then again, that's the same for all of my stories, so fuck 'em.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Basically, YOU are tasking the audience to WORK for you and your feelings.

Only if your primary motivation is applause and approval over storytelling.

 

[lc69hunter]

This conversation has tweaked my inquisitive mind to do a little research as to anonymous participation in other categories, as they drive the disgust and vileness in LW.

 

[SouthernCrossfire]

LW is a hard nut to crack but a good story can end up with a decent or even good score. However, as some have said, it may be somewhat lower than it would have been in a different category, at least in part due to the factions in the category and their very different expectations.

I might advise that category hopping will likely damage your score to some degree, so bear that in mind, but it is not at all wrong.

That's often the case but a category shift can sometimes result in higher scores and, occasionally, higher numbers of views due to the increased exposure and better meeting the expectations of the readers of the category. My recent Annie Rocks series is an example where the final part of the trilogy shifted from EC (in Parts 1 and 2) to Romance and received a slightly better score and about 10-20% more votes than the earlier parts as a result.

 

[IWroteThis]

How do you solve, then, for different chapters or episodes featuring different category content?

I don't think that "just don't write them that way" is a defensible position. This is a real issue. I'm not saying that that is your position, but it is one I have seen before and can anticipate someone offering again.

It's simple, really. You put it in Novels and Novellas, which is for "Erotic fiction with a broader scope."

In other words, it's the category for category-hopping stories.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You can mix plenty of other elements in a story and not have to change categories. In one of my stories the FMC makes a video of herself masturbating for the MMC. I suppose technically I could have put that in EV. It was the main sex in that episode, but it's still part of an over arching story that belongs elsewhere.
Your characters can have anal without putting that chapter in anal, for example.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I wish there was a way to submit an essentially identical story to LW and a couple of other categories to see what happens. Change the character names and title maybe, but even that might not get past the filters. They'd really have to go up on the same day though to get an accurate test.

Wonder if a question to L might get permission?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

the final part of the trilogy shifted from EC (in Parts 1 and 2) to Romance and received a slightly better score and about 10-20% more votes than the earlier parts as a result.

Romance has a far higher readership than EC (almost every category has a higher readership than EC) and Romance might be the easiest crowd to please so in that special case that would make sense, but that would be a separate discussion.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In other words, it's the category for category-hopping stories.

Not really. It's the category for generally longer works with more developed plot.

The kink writers have it easy - just plunk your story into the appropriate kink category - and usually this means that they have little to no understanding of how to categorize plot heavy stories that don't center on a kink. They seem to think that every story is cut-and-dried and has one place that it must go. "No! Your story with multiple kinks HAS to go in N&N." Or "Your romance doesn't have an HEA so it HAS to go in EC." Of course that's really a bunch of eyerolling bullshit, especially when there are several kinks that lit does not even bother to provide a category for.

 

[IWroteThis]

LW is a hard nut to crack

Not really. The problem is that too many readers feel entitled to demand that readers adapt to them rather than them adapting to readers. Back in the days before the Internet and cheap self-publishing, the mantra of "Know your audience!" was hammered into every writer who wanted more than a bunch of rejection notices. Sadly, that focus on readers has been lost. Instead, we have egos like [name redacted] who has publicly stated that it is impossible for somebody to legitimately hate something they wrote. Instead, all 1* and 2* ratings they receive must be vindictive and fraudulent. I suspect that a lot of you know exactly who I'm talking about…

That said, Loving Wives suffers from several failings, but I'll only mention a few.

1) The name seems to have been meant as a sarcastic oxymoron, but in reality it's just a misnomer that confuses both readers and writers.

2) If you remove the marital drama, there is nothing left in Loving Wives that doesn't fit in one of the better defined categories. It defeats the purpose of having multiple categories when the mere presence of a wedding ring dumps everything together in a singular category.

3) The readers in Loving Wives are the most truthful on the site. If they hate it, they still rate it. Other categories lack this honesty.

Of course, it's not the end of the world, as many writers excel in Loving Wives. If you actually get to know the audience in Loving Wives, you will find that there is a lot of middle ground that does not completely alienate large portions of the audience. If you write decent stories in that sweet spot that is what the readers have declared Loving Wives to be, you will do well.

If you can't/won't do that, ignore the wedding rings and put your fetish stories in Fetish, your group sex stories in Group Sex, etc. You and the readers of Loving Wives will be much happier for it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Instead, we have egos like [name redacted] who has publicly stated that it is impossible for somebody to legitimately hate something they wrote. Instead, all 1* and 2* ratings they receive must be vindictive and fraudulent. I suspect that a lot of you know exactly who I'm talking about…

Oh, there are more than one. ; )

 

[IWroteThis]

Not really. It's the category for generally longer works with more developed plot.

The kink writers have it easy - just plunk your story into the appropriate kink category - and usually this means that they have little to no understanding of how to categorize plot heavy stories that don't center on a kink. They seem to think that every story is cut-and-dried and has one place that it must go. "No! Your story with multiple kinks HAS to go in N&N." Or "Your romance doesn't have an HEA so it HAS to go in EC." Of course that's really a bunch of eyerolling bullshit, especially when there are several kinks that lit does not even bother to provide a category for.

Well, if you're posting it as multiple chapters, one would hope that it is "generally longer". If it successfully retains cohesion as it goes through multiple categories, it's probably has a "more developed plot."

So, are you arguing that I'm wrong or that I'm right? You seem to be confused.

As to the strawman argument you threw out, the fact that the category was designed for such stories does not mean you are forced to use it. However, you probably shouldn't be surprised by the lack of stew when you put each ingredient in its own pot.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Well, if you're posting it as multiple chapters, one would hope that it is "generally longer". If it successfully retains cohesion as it goes through multiple categories, it's probably has a "more developed plot."

So, are you arguing that I'm wrong or that I'm right? You seem to be confused.

As to the strawman argument you threw out, the fact that the category was designed for such stories does not mean you are forced to use it. However, you probably shouldn't be surprised by the lack of stew when you put each ingredient in its own pot.

I'm saying that you are wrong. Also there is no strawman and you seem to be the one who is confused. Either that or you are just deflecting. I'm talking about the issue of category placement and you are focusing on my one example. You are wrong to state that a story must go anywhere. Certainly a longer multi-chaptered story could/u] go in N&N or it could go somewhere else. There are no length limits on any category. In fact it is perfectly okay to post a 5k story in N&N (although there might be a little push back from some of the readers there but I doubt that there would be much). If you insist that a longer story with no single central kink has to go into N&N (which is what you obviously seem to be doing) then you are 100% wrong.

 

[IWroteThis]

I'm saying that you are wrong. Also there is no strawman and you seem to be the one who is confused. Either that or you are just deflecting. I'm talking about the issue of category placement and you are focusing on my one example. You are wrong to state that a story must go anywhere. Certainly a longer multi-chaptered story could/u] go in N&N or it could go somewhere else. There are no length limits on any category. In fact it is perfectly okay to post a 5k story in N&N (although there might be a little push back from some of the readers there but I doubt that there would be much). If you insist that a longer story with no single central kink has to go into N&N (which is what you obviously seem to be doing) then you are 100% wrong.

Oh, I know that you meant to say that I was wrong, but I was laughing at your failure to do so. Thus the smiley face to let you know I was laughing and not asking an actual question.

As for the strawman argument you refuse to acknowledge, I was referring to your bogus claim that I am insisting on the use of Novels and Novellas. If you go back up the thread, you will find that my mention of Novels and Novellas was in response to this specific question.

How do you solve, then, for different chapters or episodes featuring different category content?

So, when I pointed to Novels and Novellas, I wasn't insisting that it had to be used. I was answering Britva415's question by giving them a viable solution to that issue. Thus, you attacking a misrepresentation of what I said constitutes a strawman argument.

 

[Actingup]

Not really. The problem is that too many readers feel entitled to demand that readers adapt to them rather than them adapting to readers. Back in the days before the Internet and cheap self-publishing, the mantra of "Know your audience!" was hammered into every writer who wanted more than a bunch of rejection notices. Sadly, that focus on readers has been lost. Instead, we have egos like [name redacted] who has publicly stated that it is impossible for somebody to legitimately hate something they wrote. Instead, all 1* and 2* ratings they receive must be vindictive and fraudulent. I suspect that a lot of you know exactly who I'm talking about…

That said, Loving Wives suffers from several failings, but I'll only mention a few.

1) The name seems to have been meant as a sarcastic oxymoron, but in reality it's just a misnomer that confuses both readers and writers.

2) If you remove the marital drama, there is nothing left in Loving Wives that doesn't fit in one of the better defined categories. It defeats the purpose of having multiple categories when the mere presence of a wedding ring dumps everything together in a singular category.

3) The readers in Loving Wives are the most truthful on the site. If they hate it, they still rate it. Other categories lack this honesty.

Of course, it's not the end of the world, as many writers excel in Loving Wives. If you actually get to know the audience in Loving Wives, you will find that there is a lot of middle ground that does not completely alienate large portions of the audience. If you write decent stories in that sweet spot that is what the readers have declared Loving Wives to be, you will do well.

If you can't/won't do that, ignore the wedding rings and put your fetish stories in Fetish, your group sex stories in Group Sex, etc. You and the readers of Loving Wives will be much happier for it.

#3 on your list is a feature, not a bug. If you put the muck-dwellers aside, the comments and scoring from LW are more truthful and balanced than any of the 'everybody gets a prize' categories.

I don't want to hold the category too high on the pedestal - it can be frustrating and some of the comments are ridiculous. @PennyThompson and I have both written about the reactions to our recent effort there and I won't bore people too much with that again, but the elements of moralizing and misogyny are very clearly there amongst a whole bunch of engaged and constructive comments. Our story included an abortion and some readers couldn't see past that to consider the circumstances around it - mind you, given we that set our story in the USA, that's reasonably representative of abortion being a matter of social debate over there. On the other hand, the voting and vast majority of comments on the story did clearly show that readers engaged well with it despite that element.

The 'know your audience' point (thank you @IWroteThis ) leads to another point that I should have made earlier. We should respect our audience. They aren't paying for the story, but they are giving us their time. If 50000 people are giving us an hour of their time to read something that took us 50 hours to write, we owe them, not the other way around. We can do them the courtesy of making the story worth it. I'm sure that everybody here has re-read something they wrote earlier and winced when they've seen something that could have been improved. There are certainly a couple of stories that I've considered taking down completely after thinking about how I could have written them better, and I know other authors here have done that. If LW readers are the ones giving us the message, they're not necessarily at fault for pointing out things that we should have known ourselves.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

How do you solve, then, for different chapters or episodes featuring different category content?

I don't think that "just don't write them that way" is a defensible position. This is a real issue. I'm not saying that that is your position, but it is one I have seen before and can anticipate someone offering again.

I don't advocate for taking a piecemeal approach to publishing here, even though the site allows for it. Finish the whole story and then determine which category that it best fits into. If that is a challenge, then write a synopsis for the entire story to helps identify the correct genre.

If you had a book in a mainstream bookstore, you would only get one spot on one shelf. Many other online sites also make you choose a single genre for chapter stories (if they allow you to post individual chapters to begin with)

From what I have seen from threads here, category jumping occurs primarily when a writer publishes his or her chapters as they finish them. That is a poor habit to get into because it takes control of the entire story away from the author. If something in chapter three comes to the author that would make the story better but to make it work would require a change to an already published chapter one, what are the options then?

 

[lc69hunter]

A brief, and not scientific view of all the stories on the front page of Reader Feedback tells me the following: Their were absolutely zero (0) anonymous comments on any story not in Loving Wives. In the LW category, often 20-40% of the comments were from anonymous.

To dig a little deeper, many of the LW stories over two years old, with a lot of comments, had zero anonymous comments. I know that letting anonymous posters comment drives the numbers for the site, but they are the bane of LW, disgusting vile little creatures, and they are a fairly recent plague. Without them, there still be the same factions, but if they have to put their name to it, the comments are far more respectful. The top five commenters all time on the site hate infidelity of any kind, and make their opinions known

 

[BobbyBrandt]

spelling yes, I have thoses issues, not going to lie, but as much as you want to shame me for that, it dose not matter as it won't change without high priced editors which I can't afford for this sort of hobby. so yes is what it is.

I didn't critique the spelling or grammar. Those are tolerable. The lack of dialogue tags (who is speaking) is where I saw the challenge. An easy fix and there are some good "how-to" articles to assist you.

I also see what your talking about posting in diffrent feilds, but again I post baised on content of the story chunk, is that wrong?

This is an ineffective and questionable strategy. Even though the site allows for it, if you as the author couldn't figure out what your entire story is about as a whole body of work, why should the readers even attempt to? It is one of the consequences faced by writers who insist on taking a piecemeal approach to writing their stories instead of completing the entire thing prior to publishing any part of it.

 

[Britva415]

It's simple, really. You put it in Novels and Novellas, which is for "Erotic fiction with a broader scope."

I guess.

A awful lot of these aren't serialized novels or novellas, though. They're more like episodic tales or story collections.

But... I guess.

 

[Britva415]

Even though the site allows for it, if you as the author couldn't figure out what your entire story is about as a whole body of work, why should the readers even attempt to?

They don't have to. They can either read the installment or not, based on the specified category.

As far as the author figuring it out, maybe there's nothing to figure out, because they're writing one episode at a time rather than starting with a novel outline or a start-to-finish story arc.

Not only does the site allow for it, creativity allows for it. Inspiration allows for it. Existing conventions of writing, separately from Lit's category system, allow for it. I see enforcing the N/N category AND enforcing a N/N format as dictating some kind of "right way to write" to authors who might not want to write that way.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

As for the strawman argument you refuse to acknowledge, I was referring to your bogus claim that I am insisting on the use of Novels and Novellas. If you go back up the thread, you will find that my mention of Novels and Novellas was in response to this specific question.

Seriously, this is pretty cut-and-dried.

It's simple, really. You put it in Novels and Novellas, which is for "Erotic fiction with a broader scope."

In other words, it's the category for category-hopping stories.

You tell him to put it there because that is THE place to put such a story.

Then you double-down by taking my example out of context to avoid the broad issue.

There is no strawman here. Laugh all you like.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

#3 on your list is a feature, not a bug. If you put the muck-dwellers aside, the comments and scoring from LW are more truthful and balanced than any of the 'everybody gets a prize' categories.

But they are the least accurate pertaining to the craft and quality of writing/storytelling as they are so heavily skewed by factors that have absolutely nothing to do with writing/storytelling.

In fact, since there is no category that really does score in a balanced way, the vast majority of readers seem to give a 5 or don't vote at all, LW only appears balanced because there are enough 1s to bring down the 5s. The 2s 3s and 4s are still just as few and far between as anywhere else, so there is no accurately balanced voting scale.

 

[metropolinational]

New-ish LW writer here - got started around the middle of 2025. Have absolutely loved the experience, warts and all. Love the comments section in LW, love the anon drama, love the excitement of seeing my stories start out with sub-2 scores and then rise up, sometimes all the way into the 4s. And yeah, my scores are absolutely shit. The LW raters hate me and hate my writing. It is what it is. I'm still having a blast and my only regret is that I didn't start writing here ten years ago.

That said, I have some strong opinions about what is being discussed here.

First, the idea that all category hopping stories "should have been placed" in Novellas is absurd. There is no guidance, no rule, no indication anywhere for a writer to come up with that hard and fast rule being suggested by some of you. It's just your opinion, not universally shared, now being proposed to a confused writer as something they should have known all along. Ridiculous.

Second, I don't see a single viable defense of he scoring system status quo in LW. What I see are people (like me) saying we don't care. Others say just ignore it. Others have offered reinterpretations (for example, I go by the rule that the most fun stories in that genre are found between ratings of 3 and 4). But no rating system is meant to be used that way. All rating systems are created with the intention that it be used, that it means something, and that more stars are better than less stars. The widespread knowledge that the system is broken beyond all recognition and site admins simply don't care is unacceptable. They should at least show up in the many threads I have seen complaining about it and say something. Maybe at least an apology.

The snarky replies to OP are not helpful and not acceptable.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We should respect our audience. They aren't paying for the story, but they are giving us their time. If 50000 people are giving us an hour of their time to read something that took us 50 hours to write, we owe them, not the other way around. We can do them the courtesy of making the story worth it. I'm sure that everybody here has re-read something they wrote earlier and winced when they've seen something that could have been improved. There are certainly a couple of stories that I've considered taking down completely after thinking about how I could have written them better, and I know other authors here have done that. If LW readers are the ones giving us the message, they're not necessarily at fault for pointing out things that we should have known ourselves.

I absolutely agree with this. In fact I'll go one further. Everyone wants feedback from the readers. This feedback is often very valuable. Any feedback that goes much deeper than 'loved it 5 stars' is helping the writer understand how the story made it's connection to the reader. This is exactly the kind of stuff that writers pay editors to do. Yet the comments that readers leave on our stories is just as free as the story that we give them.

And we have writers here (again, won't name names) that strut around here saying, "I put in this effort, the least they could do is not comment anonymously,," or "the least they can do is ... blahblahblah." No, the least that the readers can do is fucking nothing! You put it out there for free. The readers do not owe us a goddamn thing! And when I say this, these writers (all high and mighty and chest beating) "Oh, I don't ask for anything. All I ask for is some common courtesy."

Stop right there ... "I don't ask for anything. All I ask for is ..." <- that is something.

You put it out there for free. If you want something back, then don't put it out there for free. If you're that fucking special, go behind a fucking paywall and stop bitching about the downvotes and anonymous negative comments on a ... wait for it ... FREE PORN SITE! Hel-lo?? Also notice that no one (and I mean not once EVER!) has anyone ever complained about anonymous positive feedback.

There are a handful of writers here that have absolutely no respect for their readers. They're here for the scores and adulation that they deserve - that the readers owe them for their gift efforts. Yea, get real, man. Get the fuck over yourself.