Noticed a nasty trend with the loving wives catagory

[IWroteThis]

#3 on your list is a feature, not a bug. If you put the muck-dwellers aside, the comments and scoring from LW are more truthful and balanced than any of the 'everybody gets a prize' categories.

Actually, nothing on my list is a bug. They are simply facts that are detrimental in one manner or another. I certainly didn't mean to imply that honesty was a bad thing. You don't improve as a writer by basking in the warmth of the smoke being blown up your ass.

I don't want to hold the category too high on the pedestal - it can be frustrating and some of the comments are ridiculous. @PennyThompson and I have both written about the reactions to our recent effort there and I won't bore people too much with that again, but the elements of moralizing and misogyny are very clearly there amongst a whole bunch of engaged and constructive comments. Our story included an abortion and some readers couldn't see past that to consider the circumstances around it - mind you, given we that set our story in the USA, that's reasonably representative of abortion being a matter of social debate over there. On the other hand, the voting and vast majority of comments on the story did clearly show that readers engaged well with it despite that element.

Oh, I agree that there are some doozies in there, but that's true to a certain extent in any category. The one that I find most interesting is that despite the popularity of a "life well lived" type of revenge, it's only accepted if he ends up with one woman. Replace his PA with twins, and the scores drop.

The 'know your audience' point (thank you @IWroteThis ) leads to another point that I should have made earlier. We should respect our audience. They aren't paying for the story, but they are giving us their time. If 50000 people are giving us an hour of their time to read something that took us 50 hours to write, we owe them, not the other way around. We can do them the courtesy of making the story worth it. I'm sure that everybody here has re-read something they wrote earlier and winced when they've seen something that could have been improved. There are certainly a couple of stories that I've considered taking down completely after thinking about how I could have written them better, and I know other authors here have done that. If LW readers are the ones giving us the message, they're not necessarily at fault for pointing out things that we should have known ourselves.

That's a good point. I'd never really thought about separating knowing and respecting, as they are integral to each other in my mind.

I've thought about rewriting or even deleting my lowest rated story, but I keep it around as a reminder of how I failed my readers when I rushed to meet a deadline (750 Word Project) instead of treating it to proper editing.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Not only does the site allow for it, creativity allows for it. Inspiration allows for it. Existing conventions of writing, separately from Lit's category system, allow for it. I see enforcing the N/N category AND enforcing a N/N format as dictating some kind of "right way to write" to authors who might not want to write that way.

As I've stated on other threads on the topic, my perspective is admittedly drawn from mainstream publishing. There is no way that I could, or would, send a synopsis or query letter to an agent or a publisher that said that "Chapter one is in the romance genre, Chapter two through eight are in the adventure genre, and all the rest except Chapter 16 are in the fantasy genre."

Using the OP's story as an example, these were individual chapters that are previous chapter dependent. That is not the same as an episodic series. Coming in at chapter 6 was like starting to watch a soap opera on TV that has been on the air for years. You don't know who any of the characters are, their background, or what has occurred in the story to this point. Compared to a episodic TV program, such as NCIS, where the same characters and similar plots repeat, but the stories are self-contained.

Writers here can do what they want within the confines of Lit's system and policy conditions. If they want to be appreciated, as the OP was lamenting about, then they should endeavor to reign in their "creativity" to a certain degree and provide what the readers expect more than what they as writers find to be the most convenient for them.

 

[IWroteThis]

I guess.

A awful lot of these aren't serialized novels or novellas, though. They're more like episodic tales or story collections.

But... I guess.

If they are independent stories in a collection, then posting them in different categories will not create the issue you asked how to solve.

Now, as for the episodic ones, it depends on how you're differentiating serialized and episodic. By definition, serialized submissions are episodic. It may be an oversimplification, but I'd suggest the following test:

Can you read the collection in any order, or do you need to read every episode in order?

If you can read it in any order, then category hopping is fine. In fact, it's probably the best approach because you present each independent episode to the most receptive audience.

However, if you have it has to be read in its ordered entirety, then category hopping is a bad idea.

 

[IWroteThis]

Seriously, this is pretty cut-and-dried.

Yes, it is, which is why I don't understand you going stompy-foot over me stating a fact.

You tell him to put it there because that is THE place to put such a story.

Once again, for the underage and illiterate, I told them that was an appropriate solution to the issue that they asked how to solve. I didn't say they HAD to do anything.

Then you double-down by taking my example out of context to avoid the broad issue.

No. I laughed at a pathetic attempt to divert the discussion to a strawman argument you thought you could win.

 

[TheLobster]

There is no way that I could, or would, send a synopsis or query letter to an agent or a publisher that said that "Chapter one is in the romance genre, Chapter two through eight are in the adventure genre, and all the rest except Chapter 16 are in the fantasy genre."

Come on, you know how this isn’t a fair comparison at all.

Lit’s categories aren’t separated by nearly as wide chasms as literary genres are. The vast majority of stories here, no matter how much they category-hop, would fit into the umbrella of romance, spicy romance, romantasy, or whatever is the genre label that smut hides under in the current day and age.

The two general categories — EC and N&N — are basically these kinds of broad umbrellas. Others, like SF&F, are narrower genre buckets.

But the rest are essentially kink tags, as PSG likes to say, which are not nearly broad enough to be literarily different. “Hopping” between them over the course of a longer story is nowhere near the same as putting a lightsaber duel in 19th century historical romance novel.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Come on, you know how this isn’t a fair comparison at all.

Lit’s categories aren’t separated by nearly as wide chasms as literary genres are. The vast majority of stories here, no matter how much they category-hop, would fit into the umbrella of romance, spicy romance, romantasy, or whatever is the genre label that smut hides under in the current day and age.

The two general categories — EC and N&N — are basically these kinds of broad umbrellas. Others, like SF&F, are narrower genre buckets.

But the rest are essentially kink tags, as PSG likes to say, which are not nearly broad enough to be literarily different. “Hopping” between them over the course of a longer story is nowhere near the same as putting a lightsaber duel in 19th century historical romance novel.

I don't view Literotica as any type of publishing trend setter.

Few of the readers here came to the site with no prior literary reading experience, and they likely bring with them expectations for certain conventions to be followed. They may tolerate deviations and accept the quality of the free product here, but should that give writers an excuse to ignore readers' expectations entirely just because it's easy to do so here?

Considering a chapter story a "series" is also something that gets way over used here. They are not the same thing, but the site, and too many authors treat them as such.

You can do what you want, but just because you can do it doesn't mean that you should.

 

[Britva415]

Considering a chapter story a "series" is also something that gets way over used here. They are not the same thing, but the site, and too many authors treat them as such.

The site uses "series" to name the software feature. I can see how that could be projected onto what kinds of writing people use the feature for. But it doesn't define what kinds of writing people have to use it for.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Well you accuse me of renaming the category for selfish reasons, yet you refuse to fix a clearly broken section of the site (it was not intended to foster and nurture a community of misogyny) for your own personal reasons.

The only thing that I'm asking for here is a simple name change, although I would support separating the category since it is very large and covers many aspects that could easily be subdivided making it easier for readers to find such stories. Just as I would support separating several categories that are too broad in that way at this time.

WHO SAYS it was not done to attract the community of misogyny?

If you don't want the comments of misogynists, then what better way than to draw them away from the rest of the overly sensitive authors?

 

[Ianus4]

The term misogyny occasionally pops up in the comments.
I think that talking about misogyny is, at the very least, a strong generalization, but more likely a missing the point. Obviously, there are some negative commenters who feel this way, but I don't think that's true of the majority. The hatred here is not directed at the gender of the cheater, but at the act of cheating itself, as a betrayal or, if you will, a breach of a contract. Two people agreed on something, which one of them broke in order to satisfy their own desires. What's more, it was the most personal, most intimate contract. This is traumatic regardless of gender: half the world felt sorry for the character played by Emma Thompson in Love Actually, not just for Colin Firth's character, right?
What's more, in LW, even in many BTB stories, there is a female character (for example, a smart lawyer) with whom the cheated husband later experiences HEA. She is just as much a woman, only she is faithful. A usual story in LW is that two cheated people fall in love with each other, who understand each other's pain perfectly. Yet they still get good ratings if they are well written.
The rating of stories about reconciliation is usually not influenced by the fact of reconciliation itself, but by how much readers feel that the reconciliation is spiritually and morally justified. Is it believable that the cheater sincerely regrets their actions and not just the consequences of their actions? Is it believable that it won't happen again? Is it believable that trust can be restored? These are fundamental questions that elicit a strong emotional response from readers, regardless of gender.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

^^ Neither of those is always true in LW stories.

Many times it's just people having fun.

 

[Actingup]

The term misogyny occasionally pops up in the comments.
I think that talking about misogyny is, at the very least, a strong generalization, but more likely a missing the point. Obviously, there are some negative commenters who feel this way, but I don't think that's true of the majority. The hatred here is not directed at the gender of the cheater, but at the act of cheating itself, as a betrayal or, if you will, a breach of a contract. Two people agreed on something, which one of them broke in order to satisfy their own desires. What's more, it was the most personal, most intimate contract. This is traumatic regardless of gender: half the world felt sorry for the character played by Emma Thompson in Love Actually, not just for Colin Firth's character, right?
What's more, in LW, even in many BTB stories, there is a female character (for example, a smart lawyer) with whom the cheated husband later experiences HEA. She is just as much a woman, only she is faithful. A usual story in LW is that two cheated people fall in love with each other, who understand each other's pain perfectly. Yet they still get good ratings if they are well written.
The rating of stories about reconciliation is usually not influenced by the fact of reconciliation itself, but by how much readers feel that the reconciliation is spiritually and morally justified. Is it believable that the cheater sincerely regrets their actions and not just the consequences of their actions? Is it believable that it won't happen again? Is it believable that trust can be restored? These are fundamental questions that elicit a strong emotional response from readers, regardless of gender.

I don’t believe that it’s true of the majority. I’ve commented many times on the strong sense of justice of readers as a dominant theme. But it is unmistakably there for some commentators, who treat women as their property rather than their partner, or who are obviously uncomfortable with stories that feature intelligent, educated or powerful women.

 

[SoftTouch99]

I didn't critique the spelling or grammar. Those are tolerable. The lack of dialogue tags (who is speaking) is where I saw the challenge. An easy fix and there are some good "how-to" articles to assist you.

This is an ineffective and questionable strategy. Even though the site allows for it, if you as the author couldn't figure out what your entire story is about as a whole body of work, why should the readers even attempt to? It is one of the consequences faced by writers who insist on taking a piecemeal approach to writing their stories instead of completing the entire thing prior to publishing any part of it.

I give you credit for taking a read, but i found the comment about Dialogue tags intresting.

one of the key hits as writers is to avoid dialogue tags where possable, so I am trying to hit the middle ground here. pretty much if I put more, people complain I have too many, and just like the whole show vs tell, it becomes is quagmire of uselessnes.

Still i will take a re look to check if I missed any inportant ones, but it should be simple to know who is talking either by chr actions surrounding the dialogue or the tone of the person speaking as I do try to keep chrs distinct in this way.


as to the 2nd statemnet... ah, it is more a case of me having planned out most of the story and not having the time to write it. Also I am kind of using this site as means of pushing my self to release regluarly and push past my blocks on certain stories.

there is also diffrent types. for instance I have some that are completed works, but I just cutting out chapters (5-8k) and pasting them in, thus like with MOC, thus yes, if you don't read the prevous chapters of the completed work then you won't grasp the earler ones.

then there are some like my MNFH, which is a self contained eposode, that is effectly stand alone, but can be conintued. (doing so in other 20-30k chunk).

I hear you with story drift, it is the exact same mentialy I have with my actual real writing in Sci-fi, thus I am waiting till I have 3 books fully written and the skeltons of the rest in place before even bothering to release book one, and it has been good as working on book 4-5 has helped me flesh out things in book 2-3, but eventualy we have to accept the story as solid and release them.


anyway, I am at fualt here for not doing my research into the LW area, and learning the dangers of posting in there, but again, I stand by my statment we should have a new cat added for cheating to at least split the Loyalty based stories vs betyral stories.

now I am aware of it, that is absolutly apualing fo the readers to have to be all squized into a place where they are forced to read things they hate, just to see some of the stuff they like. I could understand why resentment would build over time.

maybe it is time the admins did somthing, if only to prevent new writers from getting burned from the exprence and deciding not to continue writing. sad as it may seem writers are not all as thick skined as we would like when we are first starting out, and we are genuneinly looking for feedback for our work.

I shuder to think how I would have been if I had posted MNFH into LW and it get anliated. might not even have bothered to continue... Like I say in my stories, my motorvation to keep writing comes from the feedback and engagement i get.

I do have a day job after all...

 

[BobbyBrandt]

The site uses "series" to name the software feature. I can see how that could be projected onto what kinds of writing people use the feature for. But it doesn't define what kinds of writing people have to use it for.

Even before the series manager feature was added, people wrote piecemeal because it is easier to do. Not that it is a better way to write, or that it tells a story better.

It is done primarily as a quest to receive quicker gratification for what readers think about what they are writing.

I write chapter stories, and I once published them in pieces before the series manager was available. While the stories were submitted as pieces, the work was complete before any part of it was published here. I also write series stories and those are still open for more episodes if I want them, but what has already been published are all complete episodes.

Readers here pay for the stories that they read. They pay for it with their time. Respect for their time dictates that a writer not expect them to invest their time on incomplete work just because it's easy to do.

Writers don't have to agree with that, but then they shouldn't gripe when readers respond with unfavorable ratings or comments.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Yes, it is, which is why I don't understand you going stompy-foot over me stating a fact.

'Story of conditions x y and z must go here' is not a fact.

So you call this a fact after all. I call it out as you calling a cut-and-0died situation. You rail againjst me all kinds of bullshit, call my argument straw man, call my argument misinterpreted, laugh at my arguments. Now you confirm what I argued all along.

Yea, we're done here.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

WHO SAYS it was not done to attract the community of misogyny?

It wasn't intended to but it did. When it became clear that that was the phenomenon that developed, nothing was done. A blind eye was turned. That;s what I'm saying.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

one of the key hits as writers is to avoid dialogue tags where possable,

That is debatable, since employing a diverse selection of dialogue tags can significantly enhance the quality of your erotic writing. It can make the scenes more engaging and enjoyable for your readers, evoking visceral feelings that leave them wanting to read more of your works. It's not just about who is speaking, but their emotions, their tone, and their actions can also be conveyed more effectively with the right dialogue tags.

However, to the point I was making where your latest chapter is concerned, it is only a chunk of the whole story. You know what came before and which character is speaking when. Someone like myself coming in mid stream doesn't have that same perspective. It's something that I think you should consider going forward.

 

[Lifestyle66]

It wasn't intended to but it did. When it became clear that that was the phenomenon that developed, nothing was done. A blind eye was turned. That;s what I'm saying.

And when that category was attracting MORE clicks than others ,... why should the Admins want to change that?

... because YOU don't like their reactions?

 

[IWroteThis]

'Story of conditions x y and z must go here' is not a fact.

It's also not what I said. THAT is a fact.

So you call this a fact after all. I call it out as you calling a cut-and-0died situation. You rail againjst me all kinds of bullshit, call my argument straw man, call my argument misinterpreted, laugh at my arguments. Now you confirm what I argued all along.

No, but go right ahead and keep lying like a politician. They sure do like their strawman arguments too.

Yea, we're done here.

Best thing I've ever heard you say!


Oh, by the way, you misspelled illiterate in your title.

 

[RetroFan]

It's always amusing to read some of the comments you get on Loving Wives stories.

For example I wrote a LW story set on the Titanic and got a comment that historical fiction stories do not belong in Loving Wives. There was little more to the comment than this, but the way it was written sounded like the commenter was a cross English high school teacher and I was the student who had misunderstood the assignment.

 

[YmaOHyd]

There should be a historical category, damnit.

 

[Voboy]

And when that category was attracting MORE clicks than others ,... why should the Admins want to change that?

... because YOU don't like their reactions?

Perhaps, then, she should change the category description so that it more closely suits the reality of that part of the site.

I'd suggest that would have solved the OP's problem before it began (which, I think, is the whole point of the thread, rather than the pissing contest it has predictably turned into). The issue isn't what the category has become, nor what the writers' preferences are; the issue is that the site itself continues to encourage submissions that they know cause divisiveness there.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Perhaps, then, she should change the category description so that it more closely suits the reality of that part of the site.

Eight months ago I would have said it's pointless to talk about, given that the categories are the categories and have been that way forever. But now that they've split transgender and crossdressing and renamed a few of the others... who knows? I don't think anything will happen, but the door's cracked at least.

 

[Actingup]

I absolutely agree with this. In fact I'll go one further. Everyone wants feedback from the readers. This feedback is often very valuable. Any feedback that goes much deeper than 'loved it 5 stars' is helping the writer understand how the story made it's connection to the reader. This is exactly the kind of stuff that writers pay editors to do. Yet the comments that readers leave on our stories is just as free as the story that we give them.

And we have writers here (again, won't name names) that strut around here saying, "I put in this effort, the least they could do is not comment anonymously,," or "the least they can do is ... blahblahblah." No, the least that the readers can do is fucking nothing! You put it out there for free. The readers do not owe us a goddamn thing! And when I say this, these writers (all high and mighty and chest beating) "Oh, I don't ask for anything. All I ask for is some common courtesy."

Stop right there ... "I don't ask for anything. All I ask for is ..." <- that is something.

You put it out there for free. If you want something back, then don't put it out there for free. If you're that fucking special, go behind a fucking paywall and stop bitching about the downvotes and anonymous negative comments on a ... wait for it ... FREE PORN SITE! Hel-lo?? Also notice that no one (and I mean not once EVER!) has anyone ever complained about anonymous positive feedback.

There are a handful of writers here that have absolutely no respect for their readers. They're here for the scores and adulation that they deserve - that the readers owe them for their gift efforts. Yea, get real, man. Get the fuck over yourself.

We agree on something - it must be Christmas! I want to add that I'm as susceptible to praise and reactive to criticism as the next person, and I don't like rude anonymous comments. But negative comments and votes are not always rude - they are simply negative, and they carry a message for us.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Perhaps, then, she should change the category description so that it more closely suits the reality of that part of the site.

I'd suggest that would have solved the OP's problem before it began (which, I think, is the whole point of the thread, rather than the pissing contest it has predictably turned into). The issue isn't what the category has become, nor what the writers' preferences are; the issue is that the site itself continues to encourage submissions that they know cause divisiveness there.

Okay.

In case you failed to read my other posts in this thread, I'll reiterate it here: WHY should the Admins change anything to a category which has INCREASED their readership, merely to appease a few offended authors?

As authors, YOU can choose to post your stories elsewhere!


DO IT!

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[YmaOHyd]

Okay.

In case you failed to read my other posts in this thread, I'll reiterate it here: WHY should the Admins change anything to a category which has INCREASED their readership, merely to appease a few offended authors?

As authors, YOU can choose to post your stories elsewhere!


DO IT!

What's so hard to understand about that?

Because maybe splitting the category up to separate the cuckoldry stories from the swinging stories from the violent-cheating stories would increase readership further...? I mean, why change the status quo ever?