On Breastfeeding, Rights, and Good Manners

[sweetnpetite]

Ha, well, I suppose so. I don't disagree. Breast feeding is natural, and its good, and it healthy, and all that other junk. But, it still makes me uncomfortable when a woman brings out her breasts in the middle of a public place, and just starts going at it.

I have to all of a sudden overt my eyes.

I don't have a problem with allowing the right for women to breast feed in public. It seems like the right thing to do, the logical thing to do.

I find nothing wrong with breast feeding, but that doesn't mean I have to be comfortable with it. Some people are uncomfortable, and that's why there's so much controversy. If no one found it uncomfortable, there wouldn't be a problem. Everyone would agree it's ok, and we'd go on with life.

You don't have to be comfortable with it no. We are saying that your discomfort is not *our* problem, nor should it be. Averting your eyes will not cause lasting damage. No one is forcing you to watch, and it is quite easy to look at something else.

On the other hand, the more often you see it around you, the more 'natural' it will seem and the more comfortable you will eventually become. That's why some of us are so millitant about it. Seeing a woman breastfeeding *should* be a naturally occuring event. IN time, everyone will get used to seeing it (just like they got used to seeing woman wearing pants) and there will be *no controversy *no discomfort, and *no problem.

NEW situations are nearly always uncomfortable. Sometimes we need to expand our comfort zones. Public breastfeeding is such an area. We as a society, *can* get past this. And I suspect that the fear is not that we can't, but that we will. and that will lead to people wanting to marry their chickens!

 

[sweetnpetite]

You make very valid points.

In our society we tend to be uncomfortable when confronted with things that are new or different.

Example - we were out at dinner the other evening at a family restaurant and witnessed several special adults from a group home also dining.

My children were fascinated, as one young man was shouting, another was loudly singing, and others were creating quite a mess at their table.

When they left there was pandemonium, of course, as some had difficulty walking, and there was additional loud conversation.

This group made many people at the restaurant very uncomfortable and you could tell some people were very relieved when they were gone.

Should they be banned? Not allowed to dine because of their special needs?

It isn't a fashion statement nursing moms are making. It isn't a fight for free speech. They are feeding their children.

I think this should be acceptable. I think society has to learn to accept it.

I misread this and thought you said 'It isn't a fashion statement nursing homes are making. It isn't a fight for free speech. They are feeding their children.' (meaning adult nursing homes)

Funny how accurate both statements are. Perfect story to illistrate the point.

 

[sweetnpetite]

That's very true. And actually, I haven't encountered tons and tons of mommies feeding their babies in public. Hmm. Wonder where they're hiding? lol.

The numbers of mothers who breastfeed *at all* in the US are dismally low. After about 6 weeks even lower.

Possibly they were to worried about nursing in public and decided to play it safe with the bottle. (True there are other reasons and considerations, but this one is a fairly common reason to choose formula) or maybe they figure that if they breastfeed they will miss out on everything while they are tucked into a nice quiet corner for about 1 hour out of every two. (breastfed babies eat *a lot*)

On the other hand, here's a little secret about mom's b/f in public- there are lots of times that she can nurse (without a blanket and a corner) and no*one*will*ever*know. I've nursed right next to my babies father and he was none the wiser!!!! BUT this depends a lot on the temperment of the child being fed at the time of his feeding. Sometimes it's possible and sometimes it's really not!

 

[sweetnpetite]

I suppose a summation out of me isn't entirely inappropriate. Simply put, we as a society need to define better the grounds for unacceptable and acceptable. The reasons being that if something is justified only as far as "I know it when I see it", that leads to insubstantial arguments and unfair policies ranging from "art museums can't have naked people" to "women have primary claim to the kids in divorce". Without clear demarcation, there can be no real justification.

I have no idea whether breastfeeding in public is acceptable or not. I haven't argued acceptability, only personal comfort. It could be that it is natural, and therefore perfectly acceptable. Then again, pissing is natural... so is sex... so is nudity... so is, arguably, violence. Natural does not equate, it seems, to acceptable. Careful work must be done, careful arguments must be build, and careful justifications must be maintained to turn society's conception of breastfeeding away from "keep it private".

It is surely possible to do that, but like any social problem with legal complications... its going to be reason that holds the solution, not dogma.

If I rubbed people the wrong way, I was only stating the obvious. I am not unique, my opinion isn't either. That, alone, makes it worth a study--not a backlash. If enough people believe something, finding out why is a good start. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and not all opinions are correct--some are vibrantly wrong or harmful. It is neither a sin nor a crime to show someone the error in their opinion... but doing so is an act of patience and reason, question and analysis. Diplomacy has its merits, and as long as all parties are open to the possibility of being wrong, it may be the most effective communication tool across opinion-gaps we have.

Concerning breastfeeding, specifically. Like it or not, its far from univerally acceptable a practice in public. The rub comes in that very few people, I think, are willing to say "the government should be able to make a private store allow it"... but given that public places are "privately owned by the people", they (collectively) shouldn't be made to endure it either. Such is the nature of voting, I suppose.

Should work be done to change enough minds that its publicly allowable? I don't know. I would say, honestly, that if the demarcation between unacceptable and acceptable were rational and clear enough to allow "breastfeeding" and disallow things like "sex, smoking, urinating, etc." then that could be a good idea. Simply "its natural" is going to cause legal complications with other "unacceptable" things.

People can rail against me about demanding too much out of definitions or assertions, about overanalysing meanings and the like. But, rest assured, that's exactly what's going to happen with issues like these if we expect them to actually undergo any change or serious legal, political, social discussion.

The style of this post is perfect, and has nothing objectionable. It is reasonable (rather than infuriatingly 'logical')

I think that a misunderstanding arose in the way you stated your feelings.

I appologize for over-reacting. (and not reading threw the thread before posting)

Sweet.

 

[SensualCealy]

Id rather see or hear a multitude of babies nestled into their mothers breast , then have a multitude of babies screaming their heads off because they are hungry, or just need comfort.

So many feel discomfort in seeing a woman breast feed yet they also cant stand a baby cry, which do you want? hmmmm
SC

 

[oggbashan]

So many feel discomfort in seeing a woman breast feed yet they also cant stand a baby cry, which do you want? hmmmm
SC

Some feel 'Ahh!' - male and female. It is a natural thing to do and can be attractive to see without any sexual connotation attached.

Og

 

[Guest]

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite
I am completely confused.

YOu fully support a woman's right to breastfeed in public, but she should do it in private?

I feel you shouldn't be shortsighted and irrational about things... but I can still support your right to an opinion.

Same construct.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

MOm's are Butt fucking in PUBLIC!!!???

wow!

see? now THAT arrouses me TOO...yet i TRY not to stare.

of course in these instances no one is being "fed" (except for carnal desires)

and can be agrued that THIS b/fing act isn't as "natural" as the other (the one intended to be referenced above)

LMAO!!!

THAT was good for a drink spew, thank you very much!





(You know, upon rereading your post, seems to me the whole butt-fucking thing is just wishful thinking on your part.)

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

maybe.

i like to watch.

I like to participate.

you know...it would be a good thing if we became desensitized (by that i mean "not shocked") to seeing breastfeeding in public.

Yes - that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

I would HATe to be desensitized to sex...public or private.

thanks

Yes. Sex should be many different things - wild, interesting, safe, calm, silly, intense - but certainly never something with which we're ho-hum.

 

[Pure]

I don't think the problem Joe mentioned is that difficult to get a handle on, regarding what's 'natural' and what's illegally shown in public.

There are lots of natural acts that are viewed as against 'public decency, if carried out in public. Shitting, fucking, and so on. Urination (by men) is on the borderline, but would get you arrested in Times Square at noon.

All of these involve exposure of the genital and/or anal areas.

The breasts are not in these areas, so for a start--this was litigated in Canada-- it's arguable a woman, on a hot summer day-- has a right to go bare breasted. Part of the supporting argument is the ubiquity of bare breasts, their use in advertising.
She argued, 'why me going to jail, and not a stripper a few blocks away. is it only permitted to show breasts for male entertainment?'

So 'topless' is in some areas already a NON-offense or borderline 'gray area' offense against decency, though it's discouraged on our downtown streets (but not inside some restaurants).

So I'd propose any other 'natural' acts involving breast exposure fall into the same category: NON offenses.

I think the social mores allow 'nude beaches' and areas permitting genital anal exposure where there isn't sexual activity, but that's as far as 'public decency' goes in North America, on average.

Already, of course, some Canadian and European cities allow full nudity on stage, and in some cases sexual activity--'sex shows'--indeed I saw one in NYC some decades back. This is still at the edge of or beyond bounds of ''public decency" in most American cities.

Of course, all these issues depend on what a majority find 'offensive' or indecent, not just tacky. (And there is the question of which indecencies should there be laws against.) That will change by place and time of history, etc. Myself I don't care who walks naked, though I suppose I don't want fucking in the parks I take my kid to.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I don't think the problem Joe mentioned is that difficult to get a handle on, regarding what's 'natural' and what's illegally shown in public.

There are lots of natural acts that are viewed as against 'public decency, if carried out in public. Shitting, fucking, and so on. Urination (by men) is on the borderline, but would get you arrested in Times Square at noon.

Your a bit behind the curve- most of those points have been made.

I think we can drop the 'it's natural' defence- if it was ever brought up in the first place. (I think it was mentioned, and taken way out of context.) The question of weather it is natural really only applies to people who are seem uncomfortable with the idea of breastfeeding at all.

A better point would be that it's *food* Women who chooose to feed there babies this way should be allowed (ha! like you could stop me!) to feed their babies anywhere else that a non-breastfeeding mother would be allowed feed her baby. (and most mothers are gonna feed their baby when their hungry, if at all possible, whereever they may be)

 

[Pure]

Hi sweet,
Sorry if i'm behind: It appears to me, you made the 'natural' argument just yesterday.

What do I tell my kids - Tell them that she is feeding her baby, that it's perfectly natural and healthy and it's fine to be curious but it's not polite to stare! For crying out loud, how hard is that?

At some point I hope it becomes so common, that no one will think to wonder. (Then we will have a positive model for doing what is natural and healthy, maybe less mothers will choose *not* to breastfeed (out of social discomfort) because of it seeming odd, or *obscene* or unfamiliar)

The food/feeding arguments seem to depend on the 'natural arguments. After all, it's quite odd--if you think about it-- to have a law saying, 'parts to do with feeding may be exposed publicly.' I realize some laws attempt that, but that approach seems limited. After all, suppose the little tyke is anxious and wants to suck a tit, and there's no milk, and she lets him. Then there's no actual 'feeding.'

I think one has to get into the murky area of what parts of the body should be out in public: in some areas, it's the ankle (and etc.), in modern developed countries, its the genitals and anus.

Note that your first para would apply equally if the woman was masturbating in public:

What do I tell my kids - Tell them that she is [stroking her genitals], that it's perfectly natural and healthy and it's fine to be curious but it's not polite to stare! For crying out loud, how hard is that?

In general, I don't favor legislating morals or mores, in the absence of signficant demonstrable harm to others. Though as I said, I'd rather not see fucking in the parks and blowjobs in the theatres I frequent.

 

[Guest]

I wonder -

if a passerby has ever really taken the time to watch a mother getting ready to nurse?

Most avert their eyes, yes, but I imagine some have watched the entire process from start to finish.

Mom sits, unbuttons or lifts her shirt, and probably does some bra shuffling (no one can see tits yet).

Then she lifts baby as she opens shirt (I see it - there's a nipple!) and baby latches on. Nipple disappears and most of the offending breast is covered by the baby's head.

Mom covers up a bit, perhaps, and then continues conversation with friends or coos to her happy baby.

Now baby is finished with lunch. Detach child (there's that pesky nipple again!) and close shirt. Any other adjustments happen under cover.

During the entire process there will only be a brief moment to catch a glimpse of bare flesh. There is only a slight possibility of an innocent bystander actually witnessing an exposed breast.

So what bothers people the most, I suppose, is noticing that a woman is nearly exposing herself.

It's amazing that some people in the U.S. (and elsewhere) can be such hypocrites about something such as this.

 

[Pure]

Only in America, and a few 'traditionalist' Muslim countries.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

I find it very awkward if a woman breast feeds without a blanket or some other form of covering. If there's a cover over the child and the breast, it's not awkward at all.

I don't think it's too much to ask to simply place a cover over the child/breast while breast feeding, is it?

 

[Guest]

I find it very awkward if a woman breast feeds without a blanket or some other form of covering. If there's a cover over the child and the breast, it's not awkward at all.

I don't think it's too much to ask to simply place a cover over the child/breast while breast feeding, is it?

I think most moms prefer to drape with something because they don't wish to expose themselves. However:

- babies do not enjoy having their heads covered while they are trying to eat. Would you?

- if it is too warm, babies are miserable having their heads covered.

- AND, once my children got a little older they loved to play with the material covering them. They'd pull it down to have something to hold on to while nursing and once they realized I wanted it to stay up they'd grin and tug really hard. It became quite the game. (Little shits.)



(But even when a mom is nursing openly you can't see any more of the breast than you would if she were wearing a bikini.)

I understand the awkwardness, truly I do. I think if more moms breast fed in the U.S. it wouldn't be that way.

 

[Guest]

To those who are uncomfortable about seeing a woman breastfeed, it can only be awkward for a moment, right? Don't you just look away and ignore it? I truly do not understand the problem.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

To those who are uncomfortable about seeing a woman breastfeed, it can only be awkward for a moment, right? Don't you just look away and ignore it? I truly do not understand the problem.

Perdita

There isn't a problem in most developed countries (except in a few parts of the US).

The only problem is the perception that it is a problem.

Og

 

[Guest]

Ogg, I agree with you. My question was for those here who have made a point of saying they have a problem with it and want women to either not breastfeed in public or be especially discreet.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

ok.everybody get a pat on the back.
now....
BuuuRRRRPPP!
feel better?

I am pretty sure we are all done here.

just have to wait 20-50 years (hopefully less)

Um, you've got some baby spit-up on your back.

(Just thought I'd point that out.)

 

[SlickTony]

As one who nursed her 2 kids for 4 1/2 years, all told (1 year for the first, 3 1/2 for the second) I acquired lots of practice in being able to do this without flashing my tits all over the place.

As for the people who say that mothers should go to the bathroom to feed their children--let them eat in the bathroom.