Rest In Peace Mr. Heston.

[HB1965]

The Columbine massacre took place on April 20, 1999.

Charlton Heston's comments in Denver that year did *not* include the cold, dead hands line. That defiant remark (paraphrasing an NRA bumper sticker) was first shouted by Heston at the NRA convention on May 20, 2000. The NYT obituary confirms this to be true.

In making Bowling for Columbine in 2002, Michael Moore ran the 2000 clip of Heston while discussing the 1999 event in his film, making it seem as if Heston shouted the cold, dead hands line in Denver - even though he did not.

Fine, thank you for that information.

He still should not have agreed to hold the convention in Denver. He was asked by the mayor not to come, and he and his organization did anyway.

 

[Etoile]

Did they get the gun out of his cold dead hands yet?

I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

And I'm not pardoning Reagan for his sins even though HE died of Alzheimer's, why would I pardon Heston? The man was a right-wing gun nut, no friend of mine.

My grandmother died of Alzheimer's, so don't think I don't understand - I just don't think the manner in which someone died is reason to excuse them for the horrible things they did in life.

 

[HB1965]

Richard Dreyfuss:It has become fashionable to characterize his politics; almost as if his politics were a separate thing, like Diana's popularity. People are either defensive or patronizing (if not contemptuous). I can only say I wish all the liberals and all the conservatives I knew had the class and forbearance he has. Would I be as patient or serene when so many had showed me such contempt, or tried to make me feel stupid or small? I doubt it, truly I do. This is dignity, simply and completely. A much more important quality than political passion at the end of the day, and far more lacking, don't you think?

......

Thanks perhaps Mr. Dreyfuss hasn't read this speech...
"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I'll tell you why: Cultural warfare."
-----Excerpt from Charlton Heston's Speech to the Free Congress Foundation, December 7, 1997

A speech that was praised by David Dukes, admitted racist politician

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html

Reactions to this speech from
Julian Bond, Board Chairman, NAACP
Eleanor Smeal, President, Feminist Majority Foundation
Nancy McDonald, President, Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians & Gays (PFLAG)
Gloria Steinem, feminist author
Marcia Gillespie, Ms. Magazine
Joan M. Garry, Executive Director, Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/statements.html

 

[intothewoods]

Thanks perhaps Mr. Dreyfuss hasn't read this speech...
"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I'll tell you why: Cultural warfare."
-----Excerpt from Charlton Heston's Speech to the Free Congress Foundation, December 7, 1997

Wellll, I don't think those are horrible questions, even if I have a different point of view. And I would like to read the rest of the speech before judging that excerpt. Context is everything.

My personal opinion is that it's in poor taste to speak ill of the dead so close to their passing. It's something I wouldn't do.

I'm in favor of gun control, but I think we need to enforce the rules we have as well. As for the second amendment, I think we need to look more closely at the drafters' intent. There's some evidence that the amendment was included to appease southerners who wanted to control slave rebellions. I don't think there is this sacred individual American right to own a gun. It's part of the culture in some places. And in others, it's not.

 

[EmpressFi]

Thanks perhaps Mr. Dreyfuss hasn't read this speech...
"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I'll tell you why: Cultural warfare."
-----Excerpt from Charlton Heston's Speech to the Free Congress Foundation, December 7, 1997

A speech that was praised by David Dukes, admitted racist politician

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html

Reactions to this speech from
Julian Bond, Board Chairman, NAACP
Eleanor Smeal, President, Feminist Majority Foundation
Nancy McDonald, President, Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians & Gays (PFLAG)
Gloria Steinem, feminist author
Marcia Gillespie, Ms. Magazine
Joan M. Garry, Executive Director, Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/statements.html

They are valid questions. Some of them questions I've asked myself. Every race on earth can place the word "pride" next to it and yet "white pride" brings to mind images of hateful, ignorant people who want to stomp on the rights of others. Why is that?

Again, I didnt want my comment to melt down into a gun control, or racial pride debate.

You know what.. I apologize. I withdrawl my statement. You had the right to attempt at a bit of comedic sarcasm and you have the right to be disgusted with the late Mr Heston's politics. Just as I had the right to be discouraged and disgusted by your lack of respect at the death of a human being. I'm not saying anyone has to tout his praises. All I said was show a little respect for the family.

But go on.. say whatever you want. You have that right. We all do.

 

[intothewoods]

They are valid questions. Some of them questions I've asked myself. Every race on earth can place the word "pride" next to it and yet "white pride" brings to mind images of hateful, ignorant people who want to stomp on the rights of others. Why is that?

Again, I didnt want my comment to melt down into a gun control, or racial pride debate.

You know what.. I apologize. I withdrawl my statement. You had the right to attempt at a bit of comedic sarcasm and you have the right to be disgusted with the late Mr Heston's politics. Just as I had the right to be discouraged and disgusted by your lack of respect at the death of a human being. I'm not saying anyone has to tout his praises. All I said was show a little respect for the family.

But go on.. say whatever you want. You have that right. We all do.

Because whites hold the power. What does it even mean to be "white"? I'm white, but I'm a woman. I'm white, but I'm a Jew. It's ridiculously complicated and can't be reduced to, but I want white pride too! At any rate, the excerpt above includes provocative questions, but that alone doesn't make him evil incarnate in my book.

 

[Etoile]

My personal opinion is that it's in poor taste to speak ill of the dead so close to their passing. It's something I wouldn't do.

I can totally respect that you wouldn't do it. But can I ask, sincerely: what does "so close to their passing" have to do with it? I don't understand that.

(I also don't feel HB spoke ill...I thought it was an amusing riff on Heston's own comments from the past. I didn't find it derogatory in the slightest.)

 

[Etoile]

I'm not saying anyone has to tout his praises. All I said was show a little respect for the family.

I don't understand this either. Charlton Heston's family most likely doesn't read Literotica forums. Doesn't venue matter? I would never ever ever crack HB's joke to Heston's family, that would be so far beyond insensitive I can't even imagine it. Beyond cruel. But why is it disrespectful here, on Lit? (Again, this is a serious question...I'm trying to understand the objection.)

 

[intothewoods]

I can totally respect that you wouldn't do it. But can I ask, sincerely: what does "so close to their passing" have to do with it? I don't understand that.

(I also don't feel HB spoke ill...I thought it was an amusing riff on Heston's own comments from the past. I didn't find it derogatory in the slightest.)

I don't know - it must have been something drilled into my head as a kid. There just seems to be a period of mourning when you don't crack jokes that are digs at the deceased. It's fresh and raw to some people, so it seems respectful to me for there to be some period of time when if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I don't understand this either. Charlton Heston's family most likely doesn't read Literotica forums. Doesn't venue matter? I would never ever ever crack HB's joke to Heston's family, that would be so far beyond insensitive I can't even imagine it. Beyond cruel. But why is it disrespectful here, on Lit? (Again, this is a serious question...I'm trying to understand the objection.)

I hear ya on this, although I don't think it's about Heston's family reading a Lit board. People who do respect him may be reading. And again, it's just the principle of thing.

 

[cherokee_dove]

I don't understand this either. Charlton Heston's family most likely doesn't read Literotica forums. Doesn't venue matter? I would never ever ever crack HB's joke to Heston's family, that would be so far beyond insensitive I can't even imagine it. Beyond cruel. But why is it disrespectful here, on Lit? (Again, this is a serious question...I'm trying to understand the objection.)

Just a thought, but maybe there are some on here that think (or thought) of him as being a terrific actor, they agree with his thoughts, dying of Alzheimers issue; many different things that may connect them in some way or other to him or his issues?

And also, he just died yesterday. Personally, growing up; we were always made aware of the fact that no matter what problems you had with someone; you waited at least 3 or 4 days before talking bad about them. Common courtesy, i guess.

Hope that helps, Etoile.

 

[Etoile]

Okay, I think I get the picture now. Thanks, dove and ITW.

 

[HB1965]

Ok I give up. You all want to brand me has some kind of disrespectful bitch go ahead.

I suggest you read the rest of that speech Serjules which I linked. He belittles the Holocaust. I'm sure you will enjoy that. He also speaks against the gay pride movement. Another thing I'm sure that will be amusing to you.

I can tell you all that this respectful period thing you are bringing up. I see how convienient it is for you to say something now when it's someone you respect and admire. I don't think you'd hold the same restraint for anyone else that you didn't

 

[iceburg1]

Ok I give up. You all want to brand me has some kind of disrespectful bitch go ahead.

I suggest you read the rest of that speech Serjules which I linked. He belittles the Holocaust. I'm sure you will enjoy that. He also speaks against the gay pride movement. Another thing I'm sure that will be amusing to you.

I can tell you all that this respectful period thing you are bringing up. I see how convienient it is for you to say something now when it's someone you respect and admire. I don't think you'd hold the same restraint for anyone else that you didn't

Well spoken !!

 

[JMohegan]

Thanks perhaps Mr. Dreyfuss hasn't read this speech...
"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I'll tell you why: Cultural warfare."
-----Excerpt from Charlton Heston's Speech to the Free Congress Foundation, December 7, 1997

A speech that was praised by David Dukes, admitted racist politician

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html

Reactions to this speech from
Julian Bond, Board Chairman, NAACP
Eleanor Smeal, President, Feminist Majority Foundation
Nancy McDonald, President, Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians & Gays (PFLAG)
Gloria Steinem, feminist author
Marcia Gillespie, Ms. Magazine
Joan M. Garry, Executive Director, Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/statements.html

Those reactions to Heston's speech proved his point entirely.

Ok I give up. You all want to brand me has some kind of disrespectful bitch go ahead.

I suggest you read the rest of that speech Serjules which I linked. He belittles the Holocaust. I'm sure you will enjoy that. He also speaks against the gay pride movement. Another thing I'm sure that will be amusing to you.

I can tell you all that this respectful period thing you are bringing up. I see how convienient it is for you to say something now when it's someone you respect and admire. I don't think you'd hold the same restraint for anyone else that you didn't

I don't think you are a disrespectful bitch. But I do think you are distorting Heston's views, in a way that is unfair and ultimately unproductive. I would be writing the same responses had he died 5 minutes or 50 years ago, or indeed if he were still living.

For the record, I am a life-long Liberal, and proudly so. Though I disagree with Heston's views on many issues, I understand what he is trying to say in the speech you quoted. He argued for equality, not supremacy. He was no David Duke.

Note the date of his speech. December 1997. In branding people like Heston as nuts, at best, and homophobic bigots, at worst, the Left bears a big chunk of responsibility for 8 years of George W. Bush.

 

[JMohegan]

Fine, thank you for that information.

You're welcome.

 

[naxalite0906]

Ok I give up. You all want to brand me has some kind of disrespectful bitch go ahead.

I suggest you read the rest of that speech Serjules which I linked. He belittles the Holocaust. I'm sure you will enjoy that. He also speaks against the gay pride movement. Another thing I'm sure that will be amusing to you.

I can tell you all that this respectful period thing you are bringing up. I see how convienient it is for you to say something now when it's someone you respect and admire. I don't think you'd hold the same restraint for anyone else that you didn't

If you had said the same things a week or two ago, no one would of said a word. I understand where you are coming from. Ok, maybe it might be very close to when he passed, but that does not excuse someone for actions that they did during life. Its like saying because you died, you are forgiven from your sins etc. Yes, his passing is a shame, just like any life, but that should never change opinion of the person providing you can justify your reasons for doing so. (and I think you have done so HB). Plus, the columbine thing wasnt because of the "cold dead hands" line, it was mainly due to the fact he took an NRA rally there so soon after the deaths in the school. That to me is bad taste.

As for the stuff I said, I was just trying to clear up the Michael Moore BS factor with people who know more about US politics and laws than me. I know saying the klan being illegal is against the right to free speech, but they had a number of things outlawed in 1871 due to it being considered terrorist activity or something. Their activity declined up to 1871 and then the civil rights act of 1871 put a stop to a number of things. It wasnt until the early 1900s where it became more active again.
But, in relation to the NRA being founded in 1871, the fact it was founded on the other side of the US makes Moore's theory now appear a lot more invalid, and that is what I was trying to find out.

 

[JMohegan]

As for the stuff I said, I was just trying to clear up the Michael Moore BS factor with people who know more about US politics and laws than me. I know saying the klan being illegal is against the right to free speech, but they had a number of things outlawed in 1871 due to it being considered terrorist activity or something. Their activity declined up to 1871 and then the civil rights act of 1871 put a stop to a number of things. It wasnt until the early 1900s where it became more active again.
But, in relation to the NRA being founded in 1871, the fact it was founded on the other side of the US makes Moore's theory now appear a lot more invalid, and that is what I was trying to find out.

Michael Moore is not a credible source.

His work is deliberately obfuscatory, and as such is representative of what's wrong with the media in America today.

 

[naxalite0906]

Michael Moore is not a credible source.

His work is deliberately obfuscatory, and as such is representative of what's wrong with the media in America today.

That is why I asked my original question
I will admit to being quite naive in my knowledge of american laws, history and politics, so I wanted to ask about it just so I wasn't called a liar etc.

What was said made me think about the theory he tried to push with the KKK and NRA etc, and most people on here are more credible than he is! lol.

 

[HB1965]

Those reactions to Heston's speech proved his point entirely.


I don't think you are a disrespectful bitch. But I do think you are distorting Heston's views, in a way that is unfair and ultimately unproductive. I would be writing the same responses had he died 5 minutes or 50 years ago, or indeed if he were still living.

For the record, I am a life-long Liberal, and proudly so. Though I disagree with Heston's views on many issues, I understand what he is trying to say in the speech you quoted. He argued for equality, not supremacy. He was no David Duke.

Note the date of his speech. December 1997. In branding people like Heston as nuts, at best, and homophobic bigots, at worst, the Left bears a big chunk of responsibility for 8 years of George W. Bush.

Yes I noted that date. What I was pointing out is that these statements were made prior to his using Alzheimer's as a means of explaining his behavior. Long before Alzheimer's would have effected his judgement. I don't believe that I am distorting these remarks in anyway and am taking them in the way that he intended them. I found them inflamatory and counter productive to the things that are trying to be accomplished by the groups that he offended. He was pushing a conservative agenda which is both one of saying that they want equality but they don't feel that anyone needs "special" rights. What conservatives fail to understand is that people in those groups aren't asking for "special" rights they are asking for equal rights. They are asking to be given all the things that White Americans take for granted. They are still asking for this despite the Civil Rights movement and despite the gay pride movement because in truth we are still not completely there. Gay people asking to be able to marry is not asking for "special" rights, it's asking for equal rights.

You say that you are a liberal JM, but some how you fail to see this? I think in this case you haven't liked me from the beginning so you used this as an opportunity to be able to show me up. I'm sorry for that. I think it petty, and it's a long time to hold a grudge.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes I noted that date. What I was pointing out is that these statements were made prior to his using Alzheimer's as a means of explaining his behavior. Long before Alzheimer's would have effected his judgement. I don't believe that I am distorting these remarks in anyway and am taking them in the way that he intended them. I found them inflamatory and counter productive to the things that are trying to be accomplished by the groups that he offended. He was pushing a conservative agenda which is both one of saying that they want equality but they don't feel that anyone needs "special" rights. What conservatives fail to understand is that people in those groups aren't asking for "special" rights they are asking for equal rights. They are asking to be given all the things that White Americans take for granted. They are still asking for this despite the Civil Rights movement and despite the gay pride movement because in truth we are still not completely there. Gay people asking to be able to marry is not asking for "special" rights, it's asking for equal rights.

You say that you are a liberal JM, but some how you fail to see this? I think in this case you haven't liked me from the beginning so you used this as an opportunity to be able to show me up. I'm sorry for that. I think it petty, and it's a long time to hold a grudge.

I do not fail to see your point. Believe it or not, I see both yours and Heston's as well.

As for me not liking you, that's nuts. I don't even know you!

 

[JMohegan]

A few words from the man who gets my money, my time, and my vote. The entire speech was brilliant, but the excerpt below is particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.


"Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

Barack Obama, March 18, 2008.

 

[HB1965]

I do not fail to see your point. Believe it or not, I see both yours and Heston's as well.

As for me not liking you, that's nuts. I don't even know you!

Interesting because every interaction we've had is one where you challenge me in some way and try to show me up.

As for seeing my point, this comment would suggest otherwise...

But I do think you are distorting Heston's views, in a way that is unfair and ultimately unproductive.

I think Mr. Heston was the one with distorted views.

While I don't agree with what Michael Moore did to Heston, I think one thing needs to be made clear in this. I've worked with people with Alzheimer's and one of the things that happens is the PC filter on their thoughts is no longer there after a point. Heston was only saying what he thought. It is unfortunate that people are left with the impression from that conversation that Heston was a racist, but as it happens that impression was already there. In truth I don't blame Michael Moore for that situation, I blame the people that were supposed to be looking out for Mr. Heston. They obviously weren't doing their job on that day which makes this a double tragedy for him and his family.

 

[HB1965]

A few words from the man who gets my money, my time, and my vote. The entire speech was brilliant, but the excerpt below is particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.

At least we can agree on something. However, I think Mr. Obama has a better way of putting things he places the blame for however things are on both sides of the fence. I am not disputing that black or gay anger may have fueled these fights, but I also see speeches like Heston's as being part of the problem as well.

 

[JMohegan]

Interesting because every interaction we've had is one where you challenge me in some way and try to show me up.

Put down the violin, HornyBabe. This attempt to avoid a productive exchange is not a tactic that I respect.

If I disagree with you, I disagree with you, period. Nothing personal about it.

As for seeing my point, this comment would suggest otherwise...

I understood the points you made in post #69.

I disagree with the characterizations of Heston's speech that you made in post #53, in which you implicitly aligned him with David Duke, and in post #62, in which you (inaccurately) wrote: "He belittles the Holocaust. ... He also speaks against the gay pride movement."

 

[JMohegan]

At least we can agree on something. However, I think Mr. Obama has a better way of putting things he places the blame for however things are on both sides of the fence. I am not disputing that black or gay anger may have fueled these fights, but I also see speeches like Heston's as being part of the problem as well.

I see people like *you* as part of the problem. *Your* failure to see both sides. *Your* unwillingness to acknowledge any portion of Heston's speech as valid, or based on anything other than the ranting of an homophobic bigot.


"And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

Senator Obama's conclusion applies to *you*.