Sadistic parents or happy travellers?

[nh23]

I don't know the definitions or differences. And I don't drag him to bars often, sometimes on vacations or special occations with friends. I don't let him hang around bunches of drunk people or such.

I only have one kid, he'll be 10 next month.

I think the main thing is when you never say "if you.... I'll... " or " do this or...." the child never learns that way of thinking. If they're used to the "if...or..." they will sometimes (or all the time) push until they hear it. I believe that children want to cooperate with their parents. Not always the way we'd prefer, like when they're two and a half, , but still.

If he did something dangerous I'd stop him. I'd hold his hand on the subway platform. I'd grab his arm or put him in the stroller if he'd run around by the road. And I'd explain why it's dangerous.

Spanking has been illegal for 30 years in Sweden. (Of children that is )

Huh..that's interesting.

 

[CutieMouse]

nods lots.
And all it takes is a glance a quarter of a second too long from me or one slightly raised brow to make them stop the nonsense and regain control of their own behavior. It took a long time to get there though.

Yes.

 

[nh23]

Umm... I have the distinction of being the only mother of a child, in an attachment parenting/non-spanking/co-sleeping/ecological breastfeeding/homeschooling support group, who was told by multiple parents that my (2nd) child "needed" corporal punishment to learn to behave/learn boundaries. (from when she was 15 months to 4 years old) - similar to ES's child...

I didy time, I busted my ass to teach her appropriate behavior; I am compassionate, but intolerable of bad behavior in public.

My kids are four and eight. They have ADHD. They are typical kids, and typical kids act out. No they don't misbehave every single time we are at the store, but on occasion they do. And I'll kiss anyone's ass who's kids don't. I'll tell you what I tell their dad. Have them every single day, and you'll see a hell of a lot more than you do only seeing them on weekends.

A lot of times they act better for him. Not because he's a better parent. I could tell you some stories. Because it's new, they don't go there as often and it's not as mundane. They can be totally different in different situations.

 

[rinka]

Huh..that's interesting.

A great book, about how children cooperate:

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Competen...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249960190&sr=1-1

My kids are four and eight. They have ADHD. They are typical kids, and typical kids act out. No they don't misbehave every single time we are at the store, but on occasion they do. And I'll kiss anyone's ass who's kids don't. I'll tell you what I tell their dad. Have them every single day, and you'll see a hell of a lot more than you do only seeing them on weekends.

A lot of times they act better for him. Not because he's a better parent. I could tell you some stories. Because it's new, they don't go there as often and it's not as mundane. They can be totally different in different situations.

ADHD definitely complicates things and demands more structure. I know I have a really easygoing child. They say you get what you can deal with...

A psychologist that held a parental eduacation at my son's daycare center when he was little talked about how your kids acting up and fighting with you is a compliment. It's because they're safe with you.

 

[nh23]

A great book, about how children cooperate:

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Competen...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249960190&sr=1-1



ADHD definitely complicates things and demands more structure. I know I have a really easygoing child. They say you get what you can deal with...

A psychologist that held a parental eduacation at my son's daycare center when he was little talked about how your kids acting up and fighting with you is a compliment. It's because they're safe with you.

Aww..thank you.

I think I'm going to order that book.

 

[Lobo_8]

I have a 2 year old daughter and a 5 month old son. Before my son was born if we were in a restraunt and she started screaming for what ever reason I took about 20-30 seconds to figure out what was wrong and fix it. If it was gona take longer than that either the family left with doggy bags or my wife or I would take her outside. I was raised in a church where if a child cried during the sermon, the priest made an announcement right then that there was a child's play room in the back. Fortunately my wife and I agree on this approach. Due to how often I'm away the only vacations we take as a full family are to the grandparents. My wife has taken my daughter to Colorado before though and there didn't seem to be and issues. It is easier to dress up than down though...

-Burns

 

[Netzach]

My kids are four and eight. They have ADHD. They are typical kids,

But then they're not. Not in like a woooo bad way, but they're not typical. They're probably far more interesting than that.

It makes your job a hell of a lot harder, or at least requires different expertise.

(H's son is ADHD, I'm not merely pulling from my ass on this but many a long conversation)

You've got more things to monitor, like the actual duration of attention spans, what things are overwhelming, caffeine levels, what kinds of things are demoralizingly frustrating, what kinds of things bring out that eye for detail hyperfocus and your kids can feel super successful at.

I live with an ADD adult and these things *still* are issues in simply relating well. I'm not saying this for the sake of Walmart shoppers, but your ADHD kid isn't typical at all. They're more interesting, probably gifted in some totally fascinating ways, and driven totally crazy by things that people with typical brain chemistry aren't fazed by.

M once was telling me "this is what the inside of my head sounds like."

And I looked at him and I was completely blown away. If the inside of my head sounded like that I'd probably have a nervous breakdown in a week. Not like ooo I hear voices, but VAST amounts of information at once without any editing. ADHD people who cope are doing more with twice the workload.

The cool part, is that he sees detail that normals miss all the time. You'd want him going over a police lineup.

 

[LifelongCyn]

I have a very active son with mild ADHD. When he was 2.5, we had an opportunity to go to Disney World with family members, and I used a harness for him there even though I didn't use it at home. There were five very attentive adults to his one toddler, and I'm still glad that we had that leash. As Gracie said, it's the difference between letting him walk a bit and have some freedom and all of us having a rotten time. We still held hands and enforced our normal crowded place protocols, but there are so many distractions there and so many more people. The peace of mind was priceless to me, and he didn't mind the harness after a few trial runs at home. (Now if I could only get something similar for his dad... lol)

Oh, and Netz, I think that harnesses were around when you were a kid. My oldest brother still talks about my mom's attempt to use one on him and another brother when we were stationed in Japan in the 1960's. It didn't go over well with them, but he still got a little backpack-style harness for his 2yr old when we went to Vegas. It's shaped like a stuffed animal and the parent holds the tail.

 

[Keroin]

Interesting thread. Thoughtful replies. Thanks everyone!

For me, there are places I expect to see kids and to deal with them. In such places - grocery stores, family restaurants, parks, etc - my tolerance level is at 8.5.

I've been a step mom to two young kids. They were well behaved kids, I was much younger, (ie. energetic), and the longest I ever had them for was five weeks consecutively, but, wow, kids are freaking work. And I don't think parents should have to give up vacations and fun time just for the sake of not potentially bothering others, but a smidge of planning and common sense doesn't hurt.

To get to this island is no easy task. You will take a minimum of two flights and pay at least $1800 for them. (If you get an airfare special). Once you get here, you have limited choices of accommodation. Only four resorts have A/C. Two of those do not allow children. In the other two, well, your cheapest room will be $800 per night. Finding a budget place isn't a piece of cake either. Most are owned and run by locals, who know next to nothing about the internet. They think nothing of waiting three weeks or longer to reply to an email...no exaggeration. No one gets here by accident, no one travels to Wannahockalugee on a whim, (unless they have a ton of cash).

My point is this, a vacation here is not a trip to the grocery store; it requires thought and planning. In the case of the people with the screaming, heat frustrated infant, I'm sorry but they were warned. "Oops" just doesn't cut it. In that situation, if I was one of the guests kept awake, every night, by the howling baby, my tolerance level would have been 1.2.

Parents need to go to the grocery store. Parents don't need to travel half way around the world to a remote island for a vacation.

 

[MisterSir]

I haven't had time to read most of the thread, so for my two cents - any parent who doesn't consider the wellbeing of their child when thinking about where to go for holiday and ends up going to a place where hundred-degree weather is marked by the locals saying to one another "It's a bit warm, eh?" is either very ignorant or mind-bogglingly selfish. I'm not saying don't go away, I'm saying either have some common sense about the climates children can realistically endure without melting down or pack them off to Grandma's for a bit.

 

[Keroin]

I haven't had time to read most of the thread, so for my two cents - any parent who doesn't consider the wellbeing of their child when thinking about where to go for holiday and ends up going to a place where hundred-degree weather is marked by the locals saying to one another "It's a bit warm, eh?" is either very ignorant or mind-bogglingly selfish. I'm not saying don't go away, I'm saying either have some common sense about the climates children can realistically endure without melting down or pack them off to Grandma's for a bit.

LOL to the bold.

It's "winter" here now. We locals are wearing fleece jumpers and long pants in the mornings. The tourists, in their shorts and tank tops, sweating, look at us like we're insane. Yep, I've been here too long.

(p.s. totally off topic but did you see the Griffin/Silva fight?? I need info.)

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I haven't got any kids but my friends have and I've travelled with them. I also haven't read the whole thread, so apologies.

I think one of the main problems (in the UK at least) is the 6 week school vacation in July/August. Families with school age kids have to travel in that time, when temperatures are high and infants are dragged along with them. European holiday companies and travel agents shamelessly rip off families during peak season, so in addition to travelling in August, when most of Europe is scorching, they have to pay through the nose to do so. Families generally save all year for this vacation so they want to be guaranteed sunshine and this means booking places that are hotter than is comfortable. It also means crowded resorts heaving with children. I've seen my friends put themselves through all of this and they're more frazzled on their return home than they were before they left.

I don't think they're selfish as such, but I often wonder why they do it.

 

[MisterSir]

(p.s. totally off topic but did you see the Griffin/Silva fight?? I need info.)

No, but I'm told it was one of those really short, really explosive fights that ended with Silva winning by KO in the first round, 3:23. Won him KO and Fight of the Night. I was more interested in the Lightweight championship match, and I did not see KenFlo losing. I thought he had a damn good opening, and if it went the distance I'd have picked him over Penn.

Incidentally, is there a badder man in MMA than Silva right now? You'd think he'd have some teething pains stepping up to light heavyweight again, but no. I would not want to be Dan Henderson right now.

 

[intothewoods]

I really don't know why anyone would voluntarily go somewhere that's over 100 degrees on vacation! There are nice beach places that are cooler. And if you're loaded, bring a freaking nanny who stays in the air-conditioned hotel room.

Now, in defense of kids who act up every now and again...I have never spanked my child, I use gentle discipline, I enforce limits - yada yada yada ... and sometimes he still acts like a stinker. Why? Usually because he's tired. But sometimes he just wants to test me. No, I don't give in, and yet he still tests me. We have very similar stubborn as all hell personalities. And he HATES change in his routine. Kids all have different personalities and sometimes you can do everything right and they will misbehave from time to time. I realize that's not the point of the thread but I wanted to say it anway. To bring it back on topic, you have to know your kid. I wouldn't take my kid to the symphony right now, or anywhere that involved sitting still and being extremely quiet late at night. I do try and find a middle ground though, like a big museum during the day where we do a relatively quick walk through.

 

[graceanne]

Parents need to go to the grocery store. Parents don't need to travel half way around the world to a remote island for a vacation.

Agreed.

I really don't know why anyone would voluntarily go somewhere that's over 100 degrees on vacation!

Seriously.

But then, I hate the heat.

 

[Homburg]

Rather active thread...

How about this:

Diminishing returns.

Every parent knows about this moment, the tipping point where you know it's not going to get better. If you remember being a kid, you remember it too.

You can be in denial about it. But it's tangible. It's there to be picked up on by everyone around.

It's a change in the static in the air that says "this ain't gonna improve in here."

This is a point that many people, and many parents especially, seem to miss. I can usually tell if one of my kids is heading towards complete meltdown. Nothing is going to help, and the child simply needs to be removed from the situation.

In non-meltdown situations, I usually just tell whichever child is being a pill that they can go and sit in the car with me if they want, but that continuing to act out in wherever we are needs to cease now. Interestingly, not once have I actually had to sit in the car with any of them. I have scooped up each of them when they were infants and walked outside, but I don't count that. Crying tired hungry whatever baby is a different story. You don't reason with them. You fix the problem, or remove them from whatever situation they're in so as to cool them off and not bother other people. Letting them scream does them no good.

--

39C? So what - that's the temperature of a very hot summer in Germany. Do you expect all German mothers to flee when the child was born in October?

Wow, I have a tough time imagining that. I spent seven years total in Germany. It got sorta hot, but never that fierce. (Not calling you out, just saying "Wow" at that temp.)

That said, when it got really hot, people would still take steps to help their little kids cope. Taking them to a tropical island where those same steps really can't be taken is pretty irresponsible IMO.

--

Are the pubs there the same as bars here? Because here if you take your kid in bar you go to jail, and children's services take your kid.

My experience with pubs in various parts of western Europe is that they are often closer to restaurants than what we consider bars. Not restaurants per se, but you can sit at a table and have a reasonable meal. They're not family-friendly, but more so than bars here.

 

[Primalex]

How long are people expected to listen to/watch/ignore the annoyance of a child who's patience is out and they're melting down.

a) Your use of prerequisites is getting tiresome.

b) How fast should parents leave a restaurant when the child makes some noise to just get his way?

 

[FurryFury]

When my kids were little I dragged them to things that were for me sometimes, like role playing games. These games would typically start at noon and run until well past midnight.

I brought a travel crib along with me and two monitors. The kids always went to bed at bedtime. They were always fed and had toys with them. I expected them to behave. I expected them to entertain themselves for a good deal of the time. I expected them to sleep even when people were noisy.

I took the damage of staying up to play and missing out on sleep because I'm an adult.

Strangely, my kids looked forward to gaming days. They got to play with things at other people's houses or enjoyed people coming to our house.

They enjoyed it right up until some of our friends had kids with whom they didn't enforce rules. In the brat era, things went downhill.

Some of the nicest people I know have some of the worst kids.

 

[WriterDom]

It is hot as hell here. That never kept us inside as kids. Times have changed I guess.

 

[graceanne]

When my kids were little I dragged them to things that were for me sometimes, like role playing games. These games would typically start at noon and run until well past midnight.

I brought a travel crib along with me and two monitors. The kids always went to bed at bedtime. They were always fed and had toys with them. I expected them to behave. I expected them to entertain themselves for a good deal of the time. I expected them to sleep even when people were noisy.

I took the damage of staying up to play and missing out on sleep because I'm an adult.

Strangely, my kids looked forward to gaming days. They got to play with things at other people's houses or enjoyed people coming to our house.

They enjoyed it right up until some of our friends had kids with whom they didn't enforce rules. In the brat era, things went downhill.

Some of the nicest people I know have some of the worst kids.

This sort of thing worked with the girls; heck, we'd spend the whole night at my mom's or my dad's routinely. And all my kids could sleep through a freight train (I'm not a quiet person). D can't GO to sleep unless he's in his bed, in his room, in his house. He couldn't even as an infant (which should have been a warning sign). It's too stimulating, and he goes into overdrive. And I envy parents who I see walking, holding a sleeping child. None of my kids, EVER, went to sleep in me or K's arms while we were doing . . . whatever (the fair, the grocery store, etc).

That said, I loved the play pen. We'd take it with us to the river so we could take little ones who were to small to get in the river. What was funny is after the first or second time we did that, suddenly, all the other parents at the river had play pens for their kids. LOL Honestly, I never put my kids in play pens unless we were at the river, or K wasn't home and I was trying to make dinner. But when you're working near an open fire trying to cook you DO NOT want a child on your hip.

 

[intothewoods]

It is hot as hell here. That never kept us inside as kids. Times have changed I guess.

First of all, and this is to Primalex too, there's a difference between being used to certain heat and choosing a vacation in a place that's a heck of a lot hotter than what you're used to. Also, babies can't always tolerate heat as well as little kids, especially active outdoorsy kids who don't care what the outdoor conditions are. Some babies are fine. Some aren't. It sounded like the ones Keroin observed were not.

Rather active thread...



This is a point that many people, and many parents especially, seem to miss. I can usually tell if one of my kids is heading towards complete meltdown. Nothing is going to help, and the child simply needs to be removed from the situation.

In non-meltdown situations, I usually just tell whichever child is being a pill that they can go and sit in the car with me if they want, but that continuing to act out in wherever we are needs to cease now. Interestingly, not once have I actually had to sit in the car with any of them. I have scooped up each of them when they were infants and walked outside, but I don't count that. Crying tired hungry whatever baby is a different story. You don't reason with them. You fix the problem, or remove them from whatever situation they're in so as to cool them off and not bother other people. Letting them scream does them no good.

What - no mideast peace talks with infants? Har.

I agree with you, but the meltdown point can sometimes be a thin line. The trap I have fallen into is that I would (as a first time mom with a baby - much much less so now that he's older) always leave way before meltdown point. Sticking to a schedule made me calm and him calm. Well, fine, but every once in a while you think, well, maybe we can stick it out for a bit. And I think it is good to test these things just a wee bit because you don't want your kid to get too rigid. But go too far with it and everyone suffers.

I dunno, I'm just reminded of - ES or Fury's point (I forget! Sorry guys!) that the parent suffering through the meltdown may not be so thrilled. There are times when I don't have it all figured out and I don't have anyone to go to for support. The worst of those times are thankfully behind me, but shit still occasionally happens. The other day we were in this tight space (long story) and kidlet threw a brief little fit, catching this lady more or less in the middle. I apologized and had kidlet apologize, and let me tell you, I was so relieved when she said, oh, I think he did fine. Phewwwww. I hate when my kid misbehaves more than anyone else there and understanding people are a gift from the universe.

Some of this thread is somewhat prickly to me right now because kidlet has had some behavioral struggles lately. Nothing major really but I have stayed up late worrying about it, read everything I could get my hands on and I just feel like parenting is the hardest job I have ever done. And of course it is the most worthwhile too. But I don't have it all figured out. I remember reading Dr. Fucking Sears cover to cover when kidlet was an infant and thinking that I had it all figured out. But it very soon became abundantly clear that while I could choke on the amount of information out there, these little people do not come with a fucking manual.

I worry and I cry and I agonize and then worry that I'm a neurotic Jewish mother who will worry her child to death (or therapy, more likely ), and then there are those amazing conversations and moments you have with them that make it all worth it. Sorry for the rant...

 

[Keroin]

First of all, and this is to Primalex too, there's a difference between being used to certain heat and choosing a vacation in a place that's a heck of a lot hotter than what you're used to. Also, babies can't always tolerate heat as well as little kids, especially active outdoorsy kids who don't care what the outdoor conditions are. Some babies are fine. Some aren't. It sounded like the ones Keroin observed were not.

Exactly. What's funny is that if I wrote about a parent leaving their baby in locked car, in the middle of summer, with the windows rolled up, everyone would universally agree it was cruel and abusive but that is exactly what the heat here is like in January, February, March, when you're inside a small hut with a tin roof and no A/C.

What - no mideast peace talks with infants? Har.

I agree with you, but the meltdown point can sometimes be a thin line. The trap I have fallen into is that I would (as a first time mom with a baby - much much less so now that he's older) always leave way before meltdown point. Sticking to a schedule made me calm and him calm. Well, fine, but every once in a while you think, well, maybe we can stick it out for a bit. And I think it is good to test these things just a wee bit because you don't want your kid to get too rigid. But go too far with it and everyone suffers.

I dunno, I'm just reminded of - ES or Fury's point (I forget! Sorry guys!) that the parent suffering through the meltdown may not be so thrilled. There are times when I don't have it all figured out and I don't have anyone to go to for support. The worst of those times are thankfully behind me, but shit still occasionally happens. The other day we were in this tight space (long story) and kidlet threw a brief little fit, catching this lady more or less in the middle. I apologized and had kidlet apologize, and let me tell you, I was so relieved when she said, oh, I think he did fine. Phewwwww. I hate when my kid misbehaves more than anyone else there and understanding people are a gift from the universe.

Some of this thread is somewhat prickly to me right now because kidlet has had some behavioral struggles lately. Nothing major really but I have stayed up late worrying about it, read everything I could get my hands on and I just feel like parenting is the hardest job I have ever done. And of course it is the most worthwhile too. But I don't have it all figured out. I remember reading Dr. Fucking Sears cover to cover when kidlet was an infant and thinking that I had it all figured out. But it very soon became abundantly clear that while I could choke on the amount of information out there, these little people do not come with a fucking manual.

I worry and I cry and I agonize and then worry that I'm a neurotic Jewish mother who will worry her child to death (or therapy, more likely ), and then there are those amazing conversations and moments you have with them that make it all worth it. Sorry for the rant...

No please, rant away. I'm sure you're not the only parent out there who feels that way. I can't imagine it. My hat is off. I have about a 6-8 hour limit with kids, even the really good, quiet ones. How parents do it without copious amounts of rope and duct tape is beyond me. I find cats too much work sometimes.

If I had a child, I think I'd have to construct a giant hamster cage contraption for him/her, with a giant hamster ball for exercise, and keep the little monster in there permanently. Either that or nanny/boarding school and let me know when he/she is nineteen thankyouverymuch.

 

[Primalex]

Exactly. What's funny is that if I wrote about a parent leaving their baby in locked car, in the middle of summer, with the windows rolled up, everyone would universally agree it was cruel and abusive

The temperature inside a car raises to 70C.


Women and sciences *sighs*

 

[intothewoods]

No please, rant away.

Maybe it's the lack of carbs.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm like D, so I wanted to be sure my kids could sleep through anything and not be like me.

I see people walking and holding a sleeping child and I think aww! Then I think, "Run go get a nap while the kid is asleep dummies!"

LOL

I am big on creating a world that has few but very strong barriers. My kids always had a lot of freedom within those few but strong rules we had. I rarely put them in a play pen but safety was high on my list of concerns so at the river and around a fire, yep, I sure would.

What I did at home was put gates on rooms I didn't want them in unsupervised. The rest of the house was fair game and even those areas were okay as long as an adult watched over them.

People often misuse play pens and barriers or worse, don't use them at all and assume their kids will remain safe and watched. If I prayed, I'd pray for them. As it is I chalk it up to Darwinism in practice.

This sort of thing worked with the girls; heck, we'd spend the whole night at my mom's or my dad's routinely. And all my kids could sleep through a freight train (I'm not a quiet person). D can't GO to sleep unless he's in his bed, in his room, in his house. He couldn't even as an infant (which should have been a warning sign). It's too stimulating, and he goes into overdrive. And I envy parents who I see walking, holding a sleeping child. None of my kids, EVER, went to sleep in me or K's arms while we were doing . . . whatever (the fair, the grocery store, etc).

That said, I loved the play pen. We'd take it with us to the river so we could take little ones who were to small to get in the river. What was funny is after the first or second time we did that, suddenly, all the other parents at the river had play pens for their kids. LOL Honestly, I never put my kids in play pens unless we were at the river, or K wasn't home and I was trying to make dinner. But when you're working near an open fire trying to cook you DO NOT want a child on your hip.