Science vs Religion

[Stella_Omega]

Evil people use any excuse to do evil things. I don't think that's a reason to hate things like religion...religion didn't ask to become the misguided "reason" mad people do crazy shit.

Jody Foster was also used as a reason to do evil shit but I don't see anyone saying "Jody Foster is evil and has created chaos and death."

Except that only one person said that about Jody, and millions of people have used religion.

It a very, very good excuse. Tailor-made for excuses for violence. It's difficult to think of any other excuse that is so well-suited for getting people fired up against other people, than belief. people don't have to be mad at all, they can be perfectly sane-- and still commit violence in the name of religion.

You really cannot say "religion didn't ask..." because religion is a creation of humans, to answer human needs.

 

[welkin]

Not science vs religion, but I have been wondering about this for a while: For me being atheist/agnostic has made it easier for me to explore my sexuality, so I am curious to hear how the religious ones here reconcile religion (especially Judo-Christianity and its various interdictions) with all the kink stuff they do.

 

[ImOnIt]

The bible specificly forbids a penis to be placed between another's buttocks. Chapter four, Act one, bombs away b3 and I sunk your battleship.

Oh wait, it doesn't.

 

[eastern sun]

Religion has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.
Science has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.

Both are human expressions of our thoughts about this universe.
And both are tools in the exercise of power.

It's more important, in my opinion, to look at what people are doing in the name of religion and science and hold those people accountable for their actions, than just create blanket condemnations of one branch or the other.

To dismiss religion in favor of science is just as biased as dismissing science in favor of religion.

 

[teknight]

To dismiss religion in favor of science is just as biased as dismissing science in favor of religion.

Why is that? They're not different faces of the same coin. Science will cure disease, religion will get you dead. A simplistic example, but, valid nonetheless.
Last I checked, we live the lives that we do because of science, not religion. But I'm biased like that.

 

[Avellan13]

Why is that? They're not different faces of the same coin. Science will cure disease, religion will get you dead. A simplistic example, but, valid nonetheless.
Last I checked, we live the lives that we do because of science, not religion. But I'm biased like that.

Here here, couldn`t have said it better myself.

 

[teknight]

Not science vs religion, but I have been wondering about this for a while: For me being atheist/agnostic has made it easier for me to explore my sexuality, so I am curious to hear how the religious ones here reconcile religion (especially Judo-Christianity and its various interdictions) with all the kink stuff they do.

Start a thread on the topic... I think there is a thread discussing Christian BDSM around here... but I might be wrong?

 

[welkin]

Start a thread on the topic... I think there is a thread discussing Christian BDSM around here... but I might be wrong?

Yeah I was hoping someone would point me to an older thread since I don't want duplicates... otherwise I wouldn't mind starting a new thread.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Religion has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.
Science has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.

Both are human expressions of our thoughts about this universe.
And both are tools in the exercise of power.

You are thinking of technology, to be more specific. "Science" is the persuit of knowledge, in very specific ways-- it's a system for learning about the world. Technology is the things that humans do and make, We might learn what to make via the scientific method, but our religious and cultural beliefs inform that making and doing. Show me one death that science has caused that wasn't explained as okay by someone's religious or political belief system.

It's more important, in my opinion, to look at what people are doing in the name of religion and science and hold those people accountable for their actions, than just create blanket condemnations of one branch or the other.

That's exactly what I do. Every time I talk about why I dislike religion I will tell you that it causes and excuses bad, dangerous, or stupid behaviors. Every time, I can tell you exactly what behaviors I am talking about. Can you do the same?

To dismiss religion in favor of science is just as biased as dismissing science in favor of religion.

That would be so comforting to you if it were true, wouldn't it?

 

[welkin]

Btw, I don't like the argument "It's people that are doing evil in the name of religion, not religion".

What is religion without the people? For me religion is different from religious beliefs; religion is a system, an organization, that you cannot separate it from the people without undermining its very essence.


And I do think there's a difference between the harm religion has caused vs. the harm science has done. (Except the case of weaponry,) the latter is usually in the form of unintended side effect (e.g. nuclear leak), which can be reduced as we progress. And it's something that the science believers acknowledge and are trying to fix.

The harm religion has caused, however, seems to come from its intrinsic doctrines (take intolerance of homosexuality for example), and therefore I don't see how it can be "improved", so to speak, and I'm not sure if the believers want to "fix" it either....

 

[Stella_Omega]

When one's religion tells you that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that does not believe in one's religion is going to the hell prescribed by one's religion...

you cannot possibly tell me that the resulting massacres, coercions, othering, shaming, shunning, and whatever else I haven't mentioned yet-- are not the religion's fault.

When the religion specifically tells you that you HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL anyone who insults your religion (by, for instance, not believing in it)-- I think I can legitimately blame your religion for your attempt on my life.

When the bible says that Eve caused Adam to sin-- don't tell me that Catholocism and Christianity is not to blame for the subjugation of women.

 

[eastern sun]

Why is that? They're not different faces of the same coin. Science will cure disease, religion will get you dead. A simplistic example, but, valid nonetheless.
Last I checked, we live the lives that we do because of science, not religion. But I'm biased like that.

Yes, perhaps we both bring our biases to the conversation.

My current opinions are primarily informed by a very interesting book I read by the Dalai Lama, "The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality."

He argues that there is a difference between the scientific method as an analytical tool, and the materialistic belief in Science that informs people's values and ideologies. I thought his arguments were quite insightful.

 

[teknight]

You are thinking of technology, to be more specific. "Science" is the persuit of knowledge, in very specific ways-- it's a system for learning about the world. Technology is the things that humans do...

Touche, touche. You're spot on with the technology v science distinction, but, last I checked, technology's brought about by science, not prayer.

 

[eastern sun]

You are thinking of technology, to be more specific. "Science" is the persuit of knowledge, in very specific ways-- it's a system for learning about the world. Technology is the things that humans do and make, We might learn what to make via the scientific method, but our religious and cultural beliefs inform that making and doing. Show me one death that science has caused that wasn't explained as okay by someone's religious or political belief system. That's exactly what I do. Every time I talk about why I dislike religion I will tell you that it causes and excuses bad, dangerous, or stupid behaviors. Every time, I can tell you exactly what behaviors I am talking about. Can you do the same?
That would be so comforting to you if it were true, wouldn't it?

Actually, I am thinking of "Science" as a materially bound perception of the universe in which all phenomenon is potentially measurable and quantifiable. I kind of buy the Dalai Lama's argument that it just one more human belief system. As I mentioned above, he distinguishes between the scientific method as a form of analytical reasoning and experimentation and "Science" as a materially bound model of the universe.

Though I totally agree with you that the danger of scientific findings is largely based on its political, economic and social uses, the Dalai Lama also argued (effectively, I thought) that the materialism that is sometimes engendered by a belief in "science" may not always be the best way of interpreting the events of our lives.

I also found his arguments that our ability to create new technologies, specifically in bioengineering, outstrips our ability to make good decisions, both individually and as societies, to be very interesting.

And, you're right. It does give me some comfort to keep biases in mind when I'm engaging in any conversation about religion. I'd be interested in continuing this conversation with you, Stella.

 

[teknight]

Actually, I am thinking of "Science" as a materially bound perception of the universe in which all phenomenon is potentially measurable and quantifiable. I kind of buy the Dalai Lama's argument that it just one more human belief system. As I mentioned above, he distinguishes between the scientific method as a form of analytical reasoning and experimentation and "Science" as a materially bound model of the universe.

Though I totally agree with you that the danger of scientific findings is largely based on its political, economic and social uses, the Dalai Lama also argued (effectively, I thought) that the materialism that is sometimes engendered by a belief in "science" may not always be the best way of interpreting the events of our lives.

I also found his arguments that our ability to create new technologies, specifically in bioengineering, outstrips our ability to make good decisions, both individually and as societies, to be very interesting.

And, you're right. It does give me some comfort to keep biases in mind when I'm engaging in any conversation about religion. I'd be interested in continuing this conversation with you, Stella.

You know, all this materialism bashing is getting old, fast. Complain all you want, and as loudly as you want, but, before you do so, give up all the modern comforts, including such crazy materialistic things as vaccinations that are preventing sweeping epidemics, plumbing doing the same, fertilizer and modern, scientific methods for agriculture, FDA testing of food, all modern medicine, electricity, and, oh yeah, your computer. Can you do that, before you (and the Lama) cast stones at the EVILS of materialism?

 

[eastern sun]

You know, all this materialism bashing is getting old, fast. Complain all you want, and as loudly as you want, but, before you do so, give up all the modern comforts, including such crazy materialistic things as vaccinations that are preventing sweeping epidemics, plumbing doing the same, fertilizer and modern, scientific methods for agriculture, FDA testing of food, all modern medicine, electricity, and, oh yeah, your computer. Can you do that, before you (and the Lama) cast stones at the EVILS of materialism?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about the EVILS of materialism. Simply that the pace of our technological advancement is outstripping our ability to use it wisely (in my opinion).

It's interesting to me that you think I am arguing for religion over science. I think your biases are blinding you to what I'm actually saying.

 

[teknight]

Religion has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.
Science has done a lot of good for mankind. And a lot of harm.

Both are human expressions of our thoughts about this universe.
And both are tools in the exercise of power.

It's more important, in my opinion, to look at what people are doing in the name of religion and science and hold those people accountable for their actions, than just create blanket condemnations of one branch or the other.

To dismiss religion in favor of science is just as biased as dismissing science in favor of religion.

OK.
What good has religion done? Lay it out.

My current opinions are primarily informed by a very interesting book I read by the Dalai Lama, "The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality."

He argues that there is a difference between the scientific method as an analytical tool, and the materialistic belief in Science that informs people's values and ideologies. I thought his arguments were quite insightful.

Since you don't have your own viewpoint, can you tell us what the Lama's saying. Quotes would help, a synopsis would be second best.

Actually, I am thinking of "Science" as a materially bound perception of the universe in which all phenomenon is potentially measurable and quantifiable. I kind of buy the Dalai Lama's argument that it just one more human belief system. As I mentioned above, he distinguishes between the scientific method as a form of analytical reasoning and experimentation and "Science" as a materially bound model of the universe.

Just one more human belief system...which happens to have proof behind it, and not just well wishing.

Though I totally agree with you that the danger of scientific findings is largely based on its political, economic and social uses, the Dalai Lama also argued (effectively, I thought) that the materialism that is sometimes engendered by a belief in "science" may not always be the best way of interpreting the events of our lives.

What's the alternative that beats this "science" (why the quotation marks?)

I also found his arguments that our ability to create new technologies, specifically in bioengineering, outstrips our ability to make good decisions, both individually and as societies, to be very interesting.

What makes a good decision? Nail it down, will you?
How does science prevent us from making good decisions?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about the EVILS of materialism. Simply that the pace of our technological advancement is outstripping our ability to use it wisely (in my opinion).

It's interesting to me that you think I am arguing for religion over science. I think your biases are blinding you to what I'm actually saying.

But, if we're not using it wisely, we're using it in a destructive way...which makes it evil. Fine, it's a stretch, but, our points are not that different.

What are you saying?
Science is just one more human belief system, so, obviously, it has little merit, since it can't stand out from all the other ways of knowledge. You're saying progress is evil since it's outpaced our "morals."

Sorry, but progress has been keeping us on our toes at least since we discovered/invented fire. Surely fire transgressed the morals of primitive man, I mean, it was idolized and deified. You don't do that to just anything. Weirdly enough, we seem to have faced the onslaught of fire on morals and ethics quite well.

Why do you hate progress?

 

[Avellan13]

Dang teKnight, you seem to have the same views and ideals that I do.

Maybe you and I should join the Illuminati and help them destroy the Church.
*Just joking, or was I*

 

[rida]

Science vs Religion

Both are based on unprovable principle, however while religions shun questioning them, science strives to dig and explain them.

Religion tells people what they should believe, how they should act and behave in their lives.

Science tries to understand and explain how the world works. However theories and hypothesis, that by definitions of the scientific method are never an 100% truth (only "never proved wrong so far") have been turned into dogmas and used to tell people what they should and should not do and believe.

Both have been used to dictate policies.

Both can be used to achieve and hold on to power.

Both can be abused.

 

[teknight]

Dang teKnight, you seem to have the same views and ideals that I do.

Maybe you and I should join the Illuminati and help them destroy the Church.
*Just joking, or was I*

Nah.
a) There is no evil scientist conspiracy to destroy the church. Let's be serious, PR wise, the catholic church is hurting well enough on its own. Conspiracy theories are, quite frankly, lame.
b) People can believe whatever they want. I just wanna question them on their beliefs and the inconsistencies within. Most likely that won't change their attitudes. It serves as a sort of inoculation, really, setting them in their ways. One learns that one studying social psych. It's under perception and attitude change.
c) I don't expect myself to be above questioning. Hopefully, the questions are good enough at finding my own flaws (of which, I'm sure I have enough) and, hopefully, I can use them to better myself and my knowledge.
d) Questioning is fun. *

*archaic symbol, representing malice and mischief, presented for a mainly western audience.

 

[ImOnIt]

Both are based on unprovable principle

Which unprovable principle are you thinking about?

 

[teknight]

Both are based on unprovable principle, however while religions shun questioning them, science strives to dig and explain them.

Science tries to understand and explain how the world works. However theories and hypothesis, that by definitions of the scientific method are never an 100% truth (only "never proved wrong so far") have been turned into dogmas and used to tell people what they should and should not do and believe.

a) what's the unprovable principle behind science?
b) Regarding the emboldened part: I'm gonna expose my ignorance here and claim that I dunno what you're talking about. Where have theories and hypotheses (both? really?) been turned to dogma and subsequent policy? Can you give one example? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't think of any such case. I plead ignorance.

 

[satindesire]

Except that only one person said that about Jody, and millions of people have used religion.

It a very, very good excuse. Tailor-made for excuses for violence. It's difficult to think of any other excuse that is so well-suited for getting people fired up against other people, than belief. people don't have to be mad at all, they can be perfectly sane-- and still commit violence in the name of religion.

You really cannot say "religion didn't ask..." because religion is a creation of humans, to answer human needs.

You seem to be either missing my point or not knowing you're repeating it.

Religion is a HUMAN creation. HUMAN.

That means, HUMANS are to blame for the evil wrought, not RELIGION.

Millions of people have also used religion to do mass good works, help millions of people in need, improved the lives of countless, yet the only thing religious people see on the internet is people bashing their beliefs because some black hearted bastard on the other side of the planet blew someone up for the sake of "religion".

It makes me incredibly sad and disappointed to see Religion as the Fat Gay of the internet. It's cool to make fun of it. It's TRENDY to claim to hate it. It's funny to poke fun at it.

What's not cool is to be openly religious. "Your religion is the CAUSE OF XYZ EVIL. How dare you?!"

*shrugs*

Freedom of speech. Okay, I understand. But religion is NOT to blame. Choices are. People have freedom of choice, and the human that committed the crimes should be blamed, not whatever fucked up reason.

Sex has been the 'cause' of millions of murders. "She cheated on me, so I shot her and her lover both!" But we don't go around claiming sex is bad. Yet religion is the scapegoat that's still cool to hate on.

 

[satindesire]

a) what's the unprovable principle behind science?
b) Regarding the emboldened part: I'm gonna expose my ignorance here and claim that I dunno what you're talking about. Where have theories and hypotheses (both? really?) been turned to dogma and subsequent policy? Can you give one example? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't think of any such case. I plead ignorance.

Science is a measuring stick, a way of trying to figure out the great questions of humanity like how the universe works.

A few hundred years ago, Science was POSITIVE that the earth was the center of the universe. Then we figured out that wasn't actually fact.

The fact is, we're always just guessing about what the universe is, and we find out new things that disprove our "beliefs" frequently enough for there to be questions about things that used to be "known fact".

As much as people like yourself would like to believe, Science is not the be all end all of all facts to prove exactly how the universe works. Until we know everything, we know nothing.

In that vein, it's no different than Religion. A system of things we THINK we know.

 

[teknight]

You seem to be either missing my point or not knowing you're repeating it.

Religion is a HUMAN creation. HUMAN.

That means, HUMANS are to blame for the evil wrought, not RELIGION.

Millions of people have also used religion to do mass good works, help millions of people in need, improved the lives of countless, yet the only thing religious people see on the internet is people bashing their beliefs because some black hearted bastard on the other side of the planet blew someone up for the sake of "religion".

It makes me incredibly sad and disappointed to see Religion as the Fat Gay of the internet. It's cool to make fun of it. It's TRENDY to claim to hate it. It's funny to poke fun at it.

What's not cool is to be openly religious. "Your religion is the CAUSE OF XYZ EVIL. How dare you?!"

*shrugs*

Freedom of speech. Okay, I understand. But religion is NOT to blame. Choices are. People have freedom of choice, and the human that committed the crimes should be blamed, not whatever fucked up reason.

Sex has been the 'cause' of millions of murders. "She cheated on me, so I shot her and her lover both!" But we don't go around claiming sex is bad. Yet religion is the scapegoat that's still cool to hate on.

Uhuh. It's cool to hate religion. We're doing this to be cool.
You've fully missed Stella's point: religion isn't Jody Foster. Religion says: XYZ is bad. It does that. Actively. Now, of course people choose to act based on that, so, the blame lies with them 90% of the way, but they are focusing their malice/energy on XYZ because of religion.

No. Religion is still doing quite well, thank you very much. It is not the fat man of the internet. It is the fox news of humanity- hugely popular.

So, you're religious, and you can't see religion as evil. Noted. What else have you got?

Also, by your reasoning, millions of people have done good, 'cause they are good, not 'cause of religion. Either pull it out completely, or let it take the blame as well as the benefit. You can't have it both ways.