Secrets, incurable diseases and ethics

[Noor]

I have a friend who has an incurable infectious disease. I know they are not telling or protecting their current partner but I don't know them. My friend tends to have very messed up relationships, lots of control issues, lots of drama.
I promised years ago not to tell anyone about this. We have an on again off again friendship these days, but we are still friends.

If you had another friend, that you were very fond of, who seemed to be interested in this friend, what would you do? how could you warn them?

This is not the first time in my life that I have had a friend in this position, but that was 20 yrs ago and it wasn't as big a secret. My friend had an incurable fungal infection, and she used to go after all my exes, so I would tell them if they ever slept with her that was it for me. She was kind of like an acid test for me as to when I was completely finished with some guy.

As I get older, I see the impact of STDS like hep, herpes and AIDs, on people's lives. I have watched and am watching people become disabled and/or die from them.
One of my brother's friends was walking around for a while with amoebic dysentery, but he told everyone and finally his friends forced him to get treated, and that was curable disease.

How can I warn my other friends without exposing the secret? How I do I warn gently without with appearing to be interested in them myself? and if I am interested in them, how do I make clear my concerns for their protection from my feelings of not wanting them involved with my friend in general?

Any ideas?

 

[Noor]

One other thought, if my friend had something like AIDS would this change the answer?

 

[Corwith]

A life long impact on someone you care about or losing a little face and hurting a friend temporarily. That's what it basically comes down to. You can try some other method of preventing the two from coupling but if it comes down to it you should tell the secret.

As for your feelings for the person in question, they should hold no sway in this matter. Unless you truly want them to and you are prepared for the consequences.

 

[Noor]

A life long impact on someone you care about or losing a little face and hurting a friend temporarily. That's what it basically comes down to. You can try some other method of preventing the two from coupling but if it comes down to it you should tell the secret.

As for your feelings for the person in question, they should hold no sway in this matter. Unless you truly want them to and you are prepared for the consequences.

Thanks for your response. it would be more than a little face or temporary hurt, but yes you are right. I feel sorry for poor priests who hear this stuff in confessionals or lawyers.

I don't understand the second paragraph, could you elaborate?

 

[jadefirefly]

Even doctors can and will break their silence when their patient is a danger to themselves or someone else.

Don't hint, don't suggest. Tell who you need to tell. And frankly, I wouldn't want to be friends, even on-again off-again, with someone who would expose people to something incurable, knowingly, and not say anything.

A secret to help a friend save face is one thing. When that friend endangers others, it's apparent that they don't really care about saving face, they only care about getting what they want, which apparently they can't get if people know about this.

Tell, and be proud of yourself for helping others intead of helping your friend contribute to someone else's suffering.

 

[Noor]

Even doctors can and will break their silence when their patient is a danger to themselves or someone else.

Don't hint, don't suggest. Tell who you need to tell. And frankly, I wouldn't want to be friends, even on-again off-again, with someone who would expose people to something incurable, knowingly, and not say anything.

A secret to help a friend save face is one thing. When that friend endangers others, it's apparent that they don't really care about saving face, they only care about getting what they want, which apparently they can't get if people know about this.

Tell, and be proud of yourself for helping others intead of helping your friend contribute to someone else's suffering.

Well, I don't see a lot of infectious disease doctors breaking their silence esp with AIDS, hep and TB.

I believe their current partner may also be endangering them, they are a matched set. I am realizing that I will tell my other friend before anything happens, but I would rather not have to tell them the actual secret, or tell them for no reason. At what point do I say something?

 

[warrior queen]

turn around and walk away.
this is not your issue, and you are not responsible for what consenting adults do, or don't do.
they are the only ones responsible for their sex-lives.

your "friend" has his/her own life - and you have no right whatsoever to interfere.

 

[Ezzy]

If you had a friend who was Homicidal and wanted to buy a gun, would you help them?

Or would you go out of your way to stop the killing before it starts?

Tell her you will be happy to tell them for her, if she can't find the honesty to do it herself.

The only other advice is get out and stay out, and then when you hear that her partner has caught it, and has split up with her and moved in with someone else what do you want to do then?

 

[M's girl]

I can imagine how difficult this is.

And on the other hand I cannot. I can't believe I would ever have a friend who would have a disease that was contagious and possibly lifethreatening AND he or she would be indifferent about spreading the disease to others. I'm trying not to judge here. But if this would be a friend of mine and I would know he or she was doing this I would tell him/her to be honest or otherwise I would tell the others.... Because by 'protecting' the one friend, you are, indirectly, damaging the (many) others. I would not want that on my conscience.

I agree, on the other hand, on what's been said about you not being responsible, but does it really work that way?

 

[warrior queen]

I agree, on the other hand, on what's been said about you not being responsible, but does it really work that way?

it has to be that way.... think of this as if you were the one with the illness.
would you be happy if you found a friend was running around telling your prospective partners about it, instead of allowing you your privacy?
doesn't really matter what the illness is, it's still a privacy issue.

and how does one tell exactly, whether or not it has already been discussed between consenting partners?
could be, the partner knows, and is keeping equally quiet because they're not sure if you (the friend) know?

 

[M's girl]

it has to be that way.... think of this as if you were the one with the illness.
would you be happy if you found a friend was running around telling your prospective partners about it, instead of allowing you your privacy?
doesn't really matter what the illness is, it's still a privacy issue.

and how does one tell exactly, whether or not it has already been discussed between consenting partners?
could be, the partner knows, and is keeping equally quiet because they're not sure if you (the friend) know?

It is always easier to come up with answers when you're not in the situation yourself. But if it were ME having the illness (and we're talking STD's here, aren't we, because other illnesses that are not contagious and/or do NOT harm other people ARE my business definately!) I am pretty sure I would not go and spread it around like that. I would still want to have sex probably but I would find a partner I could trust and find out what was still possible in that area, so we would both be comfortable with it.

This (in the original question) sounds (SOUNDS!) more like someone who literally fucks around and does not care who it effects and in what way. Would it be different if it was AIDS (that question was added later)? Not for the attitude problem I guess; is the same to me (my opinion). But other than that? Hell yes: then it's murder (untill they find a cure).

On a final note: the question was would you tell your other, mutual friends. I'm not saying I would want to put a sign on the forehead of the person involved warning others. There is still the responsibility of all parties engaging in sexual acts. But if those adults (however stupid for not taking responsibility themselves) were MY friends and they would go into it thinking they could trust the other (ill one) BECAUSE they were friends.... I would give a warning somehow. I would.

 

[M's girl]

OK, let's turn the question around:

Say, you know someone you really like. Let's call him or her "X". Or you are attracted to them sexually. You've known that person for quite some time and a few of your (close) friends know that person too.

Now things between you and X are getting more serious. You have drinks with a friend who knows X also, and you are telling them you are thinking about starting a (sexual) relationship with X. Your friend says nothing....

OK, now you had sex. And you find yourself running to the doctor's office because you start to look and/or feel ill.

You tell the friend-you-had-drinks-with-before-you-started-this (sexual) -encounter (with the ill person) about being 'infected' by X. And he or she says "yeah... I knew, but I did not want to hurt X's feelings or violate X's privacy"....

What would your reaction to that be? Maybe you just catched a disease that will be with you and effect everything you do for at least a long, long time.... Will you tell the 'drinks-friend' that that was OK?!

I would slap myself in the face very hard to start with for being so stupid. But my 'drinks-friend' would be next!

 

[silverwhisper]

noor: you have the knowledge and ability to help avoid [friend's] [partner] infecting others w/ an incurable disease. if you were that [friend's] [partner] and knew that someone else knew, how would you feel about it? your friend and her partner sound like idiots, frankly.

i don't know how you will choose to handle this, but frankly, i don't see any ways that i would handle this that would allow me to still call her a friend, personally. JMHO.

ed

 

[bisexplicit]

While there are right to privacy issues, knowingly infecting someone with AIDS is a crime.

While the incurable disease may not be as serious as HIV/AIDS, protecting against getting the disease usurps the privacy rights, in my opinion.

 

[TBKahuna123]

While there are right to privacy issues, knowingly infecting someone with AIDS is a crime.

While the incurable disease may not be as serious as HIV/AIDS, protecting against getting the disease usurps the privacy rights, in my opinion.

Amen Bi! This is a bigger issue than someone's right to privacy. Have you seen those commercials where they say when you sleep with someone you are sleeping with everyone they've ever slept with? It's true, if a bit melodramatic.

If you had another friend, that you were very fond of, who seemed to be interested in this friend, what would you do? how could you warn them?

OK so basically you are being forced to choose between two friends, one who already has a disease and acts like an asshole by not informing his partners, and one you are fond of who may be unknowingly walking into a life of incurable disease themselves. To me this is no choice. One friend is acting irresponsibly and in my opinion, criminally negligent. I would inform my other friend, regardless of my previous promise to the infected friend. I wouldn't be able to live wiht myself any other way.

If after hearing it, that friend still wants to take that risk, it's then their problem, not mine. Also, only with full knowledge can consent truly be given, so withholding that information from someone takes away their right to give full consent. It's called entrapment.

 

[beingbrave]

This is a very interesting discussion

On another board last week, they were talking about what one should do with people who have drug resistant TB, and should they be isolated from society or not? Also if the avain flu should start jumping from human to human.

If the friend with a secret is a woman with AIDS the question gets even more blurry, because privately many AIDS reseachers doubt that women can spread aids except by birth, sharing needles or possibly unprotected anal sex. most recommendations for safe sex are to protect women and men from men. In that case this person's own dr may have told them there is no rsk and they are acting on this advice.

Also a sexually active woman in the USA with AIDS is in a very bad situation if her disease becomes known, there is limited support for them, and it can be quite dangerous.

My advice is to find out from the other friend if anything is likely to happen on their end, and if so seriously try to warn them off, and remind them if they do get sexual to practice safe sex. If it looks like it will turn sexual tell the friend with the disease to tell the other friend and if they don't you will. Also tell them that the other friend must tell you that they have been told, or you will tell.

 

[warrior queen]

It is always easier to come up with answers when you're not in the situation yourself.

this is sorta my point - unless it's you with the illness, then you have absolutely no right to interfere.
like i said earlier - how do you know if the person has actually told about their illness?
you don't.
the partner may already have been told, and is keeping quiet because they're not sure how much everyone else knows.

the only thing a person could and should say, would be to warn about unsafe sex... which should be a given for anyone engaging in sex anyway.
heck, even my kids (teens and preteens) know about safe-sex practice!

if the consenting partner is engaging in unsafe sex, then they are knowingly taking the risk anyway - and it's not anyone else's place to interfere with that.

 

[TBKahuna123]

this is sorta my point - unless it's you with the illness, then you have absolutely no right to interfere.

Bull. If you care about someone and know they are walking into a potential trap, you have a moral imperative to say something. That attitude of if it doesn't affect me directly it doesn't matter is just wrong on a lot of levels.

 

[TBKahuna123]

If the friend with a secret is a woman with AIDS the question gets even more blurry, because privately many AIDS reseachers doubt that women can spread aids except by birth, sharing needles or possibly unprotected anal sex. most recommendations for safe sex are to protect women and men from men. In that case this person's own dr may have told them there is no rsk and they are acting on this advice.

HUH???

OK, wait since when has that been the norm? I know there is a higher risk of passing AIDS from male to female than female to male, but I have NEVER heard a doctor or any research findings say there is a doubt that women CAN pass AIDS through unprotected sex. I'd like to see some proof of that one because it sure sounds dodgy and dangerous from where I sit.

 

[warrior queen]

If the friend with a secret is a woman with AIDS the question gets even more blurry, because privately many AIDS reseachers doubt that women can spread aids except by birth, sharing needles or possibly unprotected anal sex. most recommendations for safe sex are to protect women and men from men. In that case this person's own dr may have told them there is no rsk and they are acting on this advice.

OK, wait since when has that been the norm? I know there is a higher risk of passing AIDS from male to female than female to male, but I have NEVER heard a doctor or any research findings say there is a doubt that women CAN pass AIDS through unprotected sex. I'd like to see some proof of that one because it sure sounds dodgy and dangerous from where I sit.

this illustrates what i am saying perfectly.

if you are not absolutely sure, and you engage in unsafe sex anyway - then it's your fault if you catch the illness.
in this day and age, with all the information and protection out there, there is absolutely no excuse for expecting other people to protect you from your own unsafe practices.

 

[cinnamonstick]

It is not a stranger you would be telling the secret to. It is someone you know. Tell if you want just be prepared to handle the fall out.
I couldn't imagine being friends with a person that gives other people a disease without caring.

 

[Noor]

this is sorta my point - unless it's you with the illness, then you have absolutely no right to interfere.
like i said earlier - how do you know if the person has actually told about their illness?
you don't.

I know because my friend told me they haven't told their current partner and they have no plans on telling any future partners. I also know that they don't practice safe sex because they told me they don't. However if a future partner wanted to use a condom, they would be willing to.

 

[Noor]

this illustrates what i am saying perfectly.

if you are not absolutely sure, and you engage in unsafe sex anyway - then it's your fault if you catch the illness.
in this day and age, with all the information and protection out there, there is absolutely no excuse for expecting other people to protect you from your own unsafe practices.

I agree, trust no one. I have always used condoms since I first had sex. I am starting to think a conservative friend is right, no sex until engagement or marriage, and even with that 2 aids tests 6 months apart. Then again considering the number of unfaithful marriage partners in the US, maybe never not use condoms.

 

[warrior queen]

I know because my friend told me they haven't told their current partner and they have no plans on telling any future partners. I also know that they don't practice safe sex because they told me they don't. However if a future partner wanted to use a condom, they would be willing to.

like i said - it's the future partner who is obliged to engage in safe sexual practice.

i must point out re: the bold type..... your friend sounds like a complete idiot.
soooooo nice to see they would graciously consent to allow their partner to have condoms [/sarcasm]

*sigh* it's people like them that make it more imperative than ever for the rest of us intelligent people to take responsibility for our own safety.
the days of honesty and forthrightness are long gone folks - and these days each and every individual must excercise extreme caution and all due dilligence.
don't think anyone else is going to tell you if they have an STD... chances are they won't.

 

[Noor]

like i said - it's the future partner who is obliged to engage in safe sexual practice.

i must point out re: the bold type..... your friend sounds like a complete idiot.
soooooo nice to see they would graciously consent to allow their partner to have condoms [/sarcasm]

*sigh* it's people like them that make it more imperative than ever for the rest of us intelligent people to take responsibility for our own safety.
the days of honesty and forthrightness are long gone folks - and these days each and every individual must excercise extreme caution and all due dilligence.
don't think anyone else is going to tell you if they have an STD... chances are they won't.

I think my friend is in denial regarding infecting future partners, which does not seem that uncommon. I work with a man who doesn't not cover his mouth when he sneezes, he just sneezes down to the floor that that will work. Drives me nuts!
Frankly other then extreme STDS testing and being with another person 24/7 I am not sure there is any due diligence doesn't involve some trust of the other person. Once you trust someone, all bets are off.