Serious question about God

[kendo1]

Mm.
Doesn't stop me being christian.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The Christian God - you know, that one.

I'm soul-searching, as I usually do Sunday mornings when skipping church. I send my children off to Sunday school, hubby is wonderful enough to take them, but I prefer to stay home these days.

I've finally decided in the past two years that there is a God. I know, I know, but I will concede that there must be something there, something to stir the pot on all the planets, so to speak.

I've also stopped blaming God for everything bad that has happened to my family. And lately, for everything bad that seems to be happening to good people in the world.

But I've also stopped thanking God for all the good things. Why should He get the credit if he doesn't take the blame?

I know this sounds quite simplistic, but I'm coming back from a far-away place spiritually, and I'm attempting to make sense of something which I suppose you really can't.

I heard Pat Robertson talking about how God answered his prayers, and how with all the furor in the aftermath of Katrina, John Roberts would now be quickly and easily appointed to the Supreme Court.

I'm not giving Robertson the benefit of any coherent thought or ability to understand true Biblical thought, but that comment made me think.

If everything is connected, the good and the bad, and if people have to die so others can live, what then is the true purpose of prayer?

It seems akin to a parent desperately waiting for a transplant for their child, praying for a donor, all the while knowing someone else's child will have to die in order for theirs to live.

Is that what prayer is? Really? Because otherwise, how does God decide to grant someone's prayer, and not grant another? Is that particular person more worthy?

Huge questions, of course, but I don't want to call my pastor right now. He's been inundating me with emails about getting my butt back to services. If I ask him, he'll tell me to come to one of the Sunday school adult classes and discuss.

I don't wanna.

So - there are deeply spiritual people here, I know, and I imagine many of you have a better understanding on some of these matters than myself.

So - I'm asking. Why pray?

Prayer, Sarahh, allows a believer to have fellowship with God. If you aren't involved in fellowship with God, then prayer does make no sense. If you enjoy a relationship with God then prayer isn't as simple as begging a boon. You are communing with God.

Granted, if you don't believe in God, it's a way for growups to keep an imaginary freind, but it is a comfort to those who do. In my opinion, that comfort is the boon.

 

[DrFreud]

I don't believe for every yes he hands out a no to someone else. i don't believe we can change God's mind as usch

Brings to mind today's gospel - Matthew 18:21-35:
"Then Peter approaching asked him, "Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.

That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.

At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.' Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan......."

-----
Prayer most times is us asking God for his compassion.

In Islam especially, as I understand it, everything is "In sh'Allah": If God Wills it. The central idea of Islam is submission to God's will. God does all things, we're just his instruments.

This is not specific to islam but an expression in arabic used by muslims and christians alike. I'd also like to point out that in christianity the Our Father (the prayer that Jesus taught) says "Your Will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

 

[Guest]

Brings to mind today's gospel - Matthew 18:21-35:
"Then Peter approaching asked him, "Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.

That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.

At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.' Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan......."

-----
Prayer most times is us asking God for his compassion.

The rest of that story isn't as nice.

(speaking of compassion)

 

[elsol]

*burp*

It gets the pus out of your soul.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[DrFreud]

The rest of that story isn't as nice.

(speaking of compassion)

Nods head

 

[cymry]

such a personal dilemma...

I'm an athiest, but I respect so very much the faith that religion requires. I was raised Baptist, but on further exploration of other faiths as I grew older I just could not convince myself that there existed a "supreme being" watching over the troubled inhabitants of the earth in any form. I wish I could, it would be a considerable comfort to carry with me throughout my life.
I encourage my children (who are christian) to explore their faith to the fullest extent and am glad they find solace in thier religious beliefs.
At the same time, I can't help but feel we turn to faith on an instinctual level to help explain the random chaos of our world. Our psyches yearn for an explanation of the Good, Evil, and mixture thereof in differing degrees.
Much as the ancient Greeks (for example) gave definition to their ever changing world by assigning human aspects to the seas, mountains, winds, etc...We need some reason, some defining aspect, to explain our existence and place within the universe we know.
I would advise, if you have doubts, to err on the side of caution and strengthen your faith in God. If I were able to do the same, I would.

 

[English Lady]

But maybe thats the point to the rest of the story Dr F mentioned. the guy is forgiven then he goes off and beats the crap out of some guy for a teeny tiny debt. this gets back to the king and the guy is punished for his debt.

It's the do unto others thing isn't it. Maybe prayer is about motivating us to do, to go out and help and be God's hands on Earth. And yes, it's all about asking for God to show his compassion. Or asking for him to open our eyes too it.

Maybe it's a perspective thing?

 

[impressive]

Prayer, Sarahh, allows a believer to have fellowship with God. If you aren't involved in fellowship with God, then prayer does make no sense.

I disagree.

Prayer (the non-selfish kind) is positive energy whether or not you believe in a diety. Positive energy affects positive change.






DISCLAIMER: Opinions stated herein are those of a rather pantheistic neo-pagan laid-back crunchy bitch.

 

[woodnymph_O]

amen

I disagree.

Prayer (the non-selfish kind) is positive energy whether or not you believe in a diety. Positive energy affects positive change.






DISCLAIMER: Opinions stated herein are those of a rather pantheistic neo-pagan laid-back crunchy bitch.

I second this notion

 

[Pure]

some thoughts

sss,

sounds like you're on a good track. 'petitionary prayer' has long been suspect among many reflective persons. Whether it's asking for a personal or someone else's benefit ('heal Aunt Sally's cancer').

prayers of thanks do have an odd feeling at times, like when the flood victim blesses God that his small baby was left to him, though his wife perished.

in a larger sense, however, gratitude may be a key to Christian and Jewish religion at least. In some sense, we should be grateful just to wake up alive (along with other family members, pets, etc.).

Simone Weil is worth reading. On these issues, she casts the issue of 'ask and you shall receive' as having a special meaning: that there are some kinds of asking--those being recommended-- that cannot fail; that intrinsically must succeed if there is any 'force for good' around: For instance, asking to become a better person already implies becoming a better person.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I disagree.

Prayer (the non-selfish kind) is positive energy whether or not you believe in a diety. Positive energy affects positive change.

Marx, on the other hand, argues that prayer and reliance on a diety alienate personal and emotional energy in the same way that wage-slavery and capitalization of the workforce alienate the worker from the products of his labor. Basically, you're shipping it all out; you're expending your energy to produce goods or effects that you won't personally use in a system in which you have minimal input into the creation of those goods or the direction of that labor. Hence the worker becomes increasingly alienated from the fruits of his own production and from all other aspects of his life.

Someone had to argue with me.

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

Someone had to argue with me.

Shanglan

I'll pray for you.

 

[CharleyH]

The Christian God - you know, that one.

I'm soul-searching, as I usually do Sunday mornings when skipping church. I send my children off to Sunday school, hubby is wonderful enough to take them, but I prefer to stay home these days.

I've finally decided in the past two years that there is a God. I know, I know, but I will concede that there must be something there, something to stir the pot on all the planets, so to speak.

I've also stopped blaming God for everything bad that has happened to my family. And lately, for everything bad that seems to be happening to good people in the world.

But I've also stopped thanking God for all the good things. Why should He get the credit if he doesn't take the blame?

I know this sounds quite simplistic, but I'm coming back from a far-away place spiritually, and I'm attempting to make sense of something which I suppose you really can't.

I heard Pat Robertson talking about how God answered his prayers, and how with all the furor in the aftermath of Katrina, John Roberts would now be quickly and easily appointed to the Supreme Court.

I'm not giving Robertson the benefit of any coherent thought or ability to understand true Biblical thought, but that comment made me think.

If everything is connected, the good and the bad, and if people have to die so others can live, what then is the true purpose of prayer?

It seems akin to a parent desperately waiting for a transplant for their child, praying for a donor, all the while knowing someone else's child will have to die in order for theirs to live.

Is that what prayer is? Really? Because otherwise, how does God decide to grant someone's prayer, and not grant another? Is that particular person more worthy?

Huge questions, of course, but I don't want to call my pastor right now. He's been inundating me with emails about getting my butt back to services. If I ask him, he'll tell me to come to one of the Sunday school adult classes and discuss.

I don't wanna.

So - there are deeply spiritual people here, I know, and I imagine many of you have a better understanding on some of these matters than myself.

So - I'm asking. Why pray?

I can't answer you. I can give my thoughts. I believe there is when we die, what we believe when we live? How can I say you are right or wrong, when you believe it? I am deeply spiritual to 'my' concept, but dont like the word God. I think biblically when the words are repeated "man was created in God's image" can be meant as man has the power of choice. It depends on our outlook in this respect. I have prayed and had my prayers answered. I have prayed and not had them answered. Jesus was put through much, and on the cross for a few days. Were his prayers answered before he supposedly shouted "Why have you forsaken me?" Not really, so one must look at this, as well. What is Jesus on the cross?

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Do not pray to a god that is must be feared, for he is tyrannical.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be worshipped, for he is narcissistic.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be vengeful, for he is petty.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be thanked, for he has an ego without generosity.

Do not pray to a god that is said must be asked for forgiveness, for he is filled with contempt and lacks acceptance.

In death as in life there is no "good" or "evil," nor is there "right" or "wrong." Those are labels created by man, not God or Nature. There is only change that is within our abilities, and change that is not within our abilities.

If you must pray to a god, pray to one that is pure and who will show you the path that you should put forth the effort to take.

 

[The_Darkness]

My two cents.

I'm Christian, though I'm trying to dissociate myself from any theological school....just pure Christianity...you know, believe, be nice to people, and above all, have faith.

That faith part really does kick my ass. I had absolute faith until a few years ago...and as weird as it sounds, and I won't get too deep into it, I think I saw God, or atleast what we believe God to be. That takes the leap of faith and throws it right out the window....I have to trust my own senses on it, and there were others who witnessed similar instances that I know personally. The evidence from separate experiences was written down independently, times recorded, etc. We either experienced something completely other worldly or the Gov't is up to some seriously weird experiments.

So anyway, I am positive that I saw the thing that we Christians interpret of God.

I don't pray. I don't pray for one reason only; it seems too much like begging....it's not just humbling. Giving thanks for what we get is humbling by way of accepting that it wasn't something purely up to us. It's down right groveling, and the way I've experienced things, that doesn't do the job.

Religion in general, in all of its many facets and glories, relies on fear to keep people in line. But, in each one, there is also a strong current of respect. In that, religion in general is like the Mafia.

Imagine a Mafia family that anyone, of any level in the family, can speak to the Don. There are some family members who go up the chain of command, and there's others who respect the entirity of the chain to the point that every once in a while, they get to see the Don.

I think religion is like that. I believe that there are what we percieve as angels and demons. I believe in demonic possession as well as angelic possession. I believe that unseen hands play in our lives resulting in miracles, and I believe that certain minds can be directly influenced...or directly influence...all of those things. I believe that this unseen world works on the priniciple of respect.

Begging isn't respectful. I don't beg. I don't pray except to give thanks.

Just my crazy-ass two cents.

 

[CharleyH]

Do not pray to a god that is must be feared, for he is tyrannical.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be worshipped, for he is narcissistic.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be vengeful, for he is petty.

Do not pray to a god that is said to be thanked, for he has an ego without generosity.

Do not pray to a god that is said must be asked for forgiveness, for he is filled with contempt and lacks acceptance.

In death as in life there is no "good" or "evil," nor is there "right" or "wrong." Those are labels created by man, not God or Nature. There is only change that is within our abilities, and change that is not within our abilities.

If you must pray to a god, pray to one that is pure and who will show you the path that you should put forth the effort to take.

You are contradictory, and are missing a major point called 'acceptance'.

 

[CharleyH]

My two cents.

I'm Christian, though I'm trying to dissociate myself from any theological school....just pure Christianity...you know, believe, be nice to people, and above all, have faith.

I know what you said in the rest of your post, but what makes you think Christians are nice or have ever been or believed, or had faith?

 

[The_Darkness]

I know what you said in the rest of your post, but what makes you think Christians are nice or have ever been or believed, or had faith?

You want the historical reason or the easy way out?

Easy way out: Because the bible said so.

Historian's way out: There was a man named Jesus (no shit, common name around the time Jesus was supposed to have existed...might as well been named Bob) who was in the places Jesus was said to be in for the Gospels. The Hebrews reguard this man as a prophet, a powerful prophet, who preached that we need to be kind to each other, help each other out when we can, and have some respect for our fellow man. This is the Jesus that is identified as the Savior by Christians. Having faith was core to the message that Jesus gave his students (or disciples if you REALLY want to say it).

This faith extended both inward and outward, both believing in and trusting God, but also believing in and trusting ourselves. The best place the Bible illustraits this is in the parable of Jesus walking on water after calming the storm and calling the disciples out to him.

Historian's aside: I called it the parable of walking on water because it is extremely difficult to validate events from the Bible. Major events such as Sodom and Gomorah can be roughly verified...we know the cities existed and we know they were distroyed by earthquake and volcano. Hand of God? You decide....but some of the Bible is based on real-life events, some is parable. It's a bitch to determine where one stops and the other begins.

So the early Christians...the ones hiding from the Romans for fear of persecution, were reportedly good, upstanding folks that had faith in God and believed what they saw of Jesus and the miracles they witnessed. There's your answer to all three.

Historian's second aside: It is almost impossible to prove that Jesus of Nazareth existed. There is no record of his birth, registry with the Roman Census, tax records, or record of his crucifixion. All records have reportedly been destroyed by the Romans.

Personal Note: I really hate the Catholic church and what they did in the name of religion.

 

[CharleyH]

You want the historical reason or the easy way out?

Easy way out: Because the bible said so.

Historian's way out: There was a man named Jesus (no shit, common name around the time Jesus was supposed to have existed...might as well been named Bob) who was in the places Jesus was said to be in for the Gospels. The Hebrews reguard this man as a prophet, a powerful prophet, who preached that we need to be kind to each other, help each other out when we can, and have some respect for our fellow man. This is the Jesus that is identified as the Savior by Christians. Having faith was core to the message that Jesus gave his students (or disciples if you REALLY want to say it).

This faith extended both inward and outward, both believing in and trusting God, but also believing in and trusting ourselves. The best place the Bible illustraits this is in the parable of Jesus walking on water after calming the storm and calling the disciples out to him.

Historian's aside: I called it the parable of walking on water because it is extremely difficult to validate events from the Bible. Major events such as Sodom and Gomorah can be roughly verified...we know the cities existed and we know they were distroyed by earthquake and volcano. Hand of God? You decide....but some of the Bible is based on real-life events, some is parable. It's a bitch to determine where one stops and the other begins.

So the early Christians...the ones hiding from the Romans for fear of persecution, were reportedly good, upstanding folks that had faith in God and believed what they saw of Jesus and the miracles they witnessed. There's your answer to all three.

Historian's second aside: It is almost impossible to prove that Jesus of Nazareth existed. There is no record of his birth, registry with the Roman Census, tax records, or record of his crucifixion. All records have reportedly been destroyed by the Romans.

I do not need a way out to my redemption. I am probably more redeemed than most, simply because I believe it. However beautiful your articulation in your words of history, but don't forget the scientists, now You forgot them?

 

[The_Darkness]

I do not need a way out to my redemption. However, beautiful your articulation in your words of history, but don't forget the scientists, now You forgot them?

For that matter, I lump science in the same catagory as history.....historians have to use science to authenticate stuff and the science guys and gals studying that era can't do it without the historians.

 

[CharleyH]

For that matter, I lump science in the same catagory as history.....historians have to use science to authenticate stuff and the science guys and gals studying that era can't do it without the historians.

Historians also go on myth, Is not the bible the modern day myth? How do you equate a scientist with an historian? One looks at the past and the other looks to the future?

 

[The_Darkness]

Historians also go on myth, Is not the bible the modern day myth? How do you equate a scientist with an historian? One looks at the past and the other looks to the future?

History looks to dispel myth...sort the crap from the content as I'm fond of saying. Scientists do pretty much the same thing....except the use facts (in the form of math) to prove theories, and historians use theories to prove facts.

For example (we'll take something that'll probably be part of my PhD research): I think that the Selucians (near modern-day Baghdad) had the ability to electroplate gold in and around 250 BC. I know they had batteries....we've unearthed hundreds of the little buggers...I think their alchemists came up with what we call Aqua Regia...the only acid that will disolve gold because ancient Alexandrian Alchemists learned extensively from the Arabic Alchemists, and it was the Alexandrian Alchys that "discovered" this Aqua Regia (a mixture of Hydrochloric and Nitric Acid). In order to electroplate gold, it must first be dissolved. After enough of anything is disolved in acid, the acid will neutralize and the solution becomes stable. Hook some voltage up...not much....and voila! Electroplated metal!

The Bible's a little harder to do that with, but let's hit the highlights of the Old Testament.

Creation: First off, I don't think the world was created in 6 days. that's just damn crazy. I am a firm believer in evolution, but I don't want to open that can of worms in here. It is, however, an amazing coincidence that life on Earth evolved in roughly the same order as the animals and plants are created in the Bible.

The Great Flood: Yup. It happened...right about 5500 years ago. Big boat filled with all the animals? Nope, sorry...don't buy it. Big boat, sure....but not the Noah's Arc that we're told.

The Line of Kings: Solomon, David, Abraham....all real folks. Independently varified through texts of the people they fought against. The spellings may differ slightly, but it's the same guys, same times.

The Arc of the Covenant: This is controversial at best. I belive that it exists, and that due to the research that went into it, it probably very much resembles the mock up they made for the Indiana Jones movie (Spielberg does his homework) except the missing staff of Aaron inside. The interesting thing about this artifact is that a research team thought they were going to find it in the ruins of the temple of Solomon, in a secret room where the Temple of the Mound is built now in Jerusalem. They dug a tunnel under the walls and structure, being very careful along the way, and they were going to break into the last 10 feet in the morning with a crew filming. They went to bed, the next morning the entire tunnel (300 some feet, if I remember correctly) was filled with concrete and twisted iron. They took the hint and got the fuck out of dodge.

The Exodus of the Hebrew people from Egypt: Oh hell yeah. that's why Ramses II went into Syria. A large portion of his army was lost at the Red Sea. It has since been proven that the Red Sea can actually part and a land bridge will appear for a short period of time. The water doesn't form huge walls like in the movies, but Napoleon's men found this out when Napoleon was down in Egypt. The sea parted and he tried to get across. He damn near lost his life when the effect ended sooner than expected.

I could go on (if I could remember that much more from the Bible right now) but history and archeology do confirm a great many of the major story points of the bible....just usually not the details that we get in the stories.

But, back to your other question....Historians looking to the past, Scientists to the future. That's more or less true, I can't really contradict that. I have noticed, however, that after reading thousands upon thousands of pages of history, I've noticed a stark similarity (not an exact copy) between some of the events out of our recent history and ancient times. Most noteably was the War Powers Act that Bush wanted passed after the World Trade Center attacks. If he'd have gotten all of it passed, it would have set up the ability for the president to over-ride the need for elections in a time of war, thus maintaining G.W.'s position as president damn near indefinately; all he has to do is say we're at war with Al Qaida (Which he did, immediately). Sounds terribly like the shift from Republic (which we technically are) to Empire about 2000 years ago. I was biting my nails until I heard that Congress didn't pass all the shit the pres wanted. Blatent case of history at use in the present.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Knock it off Charley, not the place.

SSS, I've had a different sort of problem, but related. I don't pray, but I still want to show that which I believe in that I appreciate what it has given me already.

Speaking more generally, I think prayer for many solves that desire to reciprocate a God for its gifts. A way to say thanks, to acknowledge to it that you believe in it. I think it's up to a God to answer a prayer, to give an additional boon, and that whatever figure in whatever religion stays out of the nitty gritty a lot because they understand the someone loses-someone gains world it can become. Sometimes it may do stuff, but I doubt it is as micromanagerial as everyone makes it. As long as you are thankful for the good things, don't blame for the bad things, and overall strive to prove yourself thankful and worthy of the boons then that's more important than prayer specific. I don't mean Flagellism, but rather a check on yourself that you don't begin to demand things of your god or expect them to make your life, their entire focus and to make others suffer for you.

Because at the end of the day, there is a bit of a karma check. Whether you believe in karma or just eternal justice, there is a check at the end of the dance that begins to ask pointed questions of the sins and applaud the unrequited acts of good.

Now still, it can help to ask things, for a little help through the dips in life, that's natural and sometimes a god is listening at that moment and takes a little of the karmic load of you for a sec. As long as you don't get greedy, expectant, and selfish about it, as long as you recognize it as not some guaranteed Santa Claus, it's good. It can affirm your belief in a deity, it can help you connect to that deity, it can help you thank that deity or figure of belief if you feel it needing thanking, and it can help you ask for a bit of possible supernatural help.

It can be a good thing I think and my lack of participation is more me shying away from the feeling you have, I think. That lack of desire to be the type of person constantly asking boons from the object of my religious worship. I'd rather just acknowledge <blank> from time to time and strive to do <blank> justice. I don't do evangelism, but perhaps something more like that might be your style. If prayer doesn't feel comfortable, why force yourself to participate. A just God doesn't find your conformity to expectation key, it finds the state of your heart and the color of your soul key. That's what makes a just God just. Any other deity, well, why pray to them?

 

[amicus]

I'm an athiest, but I respect so very much the faith that religion requires. I was raised Baptist, but on further exploration of other faiths as I grew older I just could not convince myself that there existed a "supreme being" watching over the troubled inhabitants of the earth in any form. I wish I could, it would be a considerable comfort to carry with me throughout my life.
I encourage my children (who are christian) to explore their faith to the fullest extent and am glad they find solace in thier religious beliefs.
At the same time, I can't help but feel we turn to faith on an instinctual level to help explain the random chaos of our world. Our psyches yearn for an explanation of the Good, Evil, and mixture thereof in differing degrees.
Much as the ancient Greeks (for example) gave definition to their ever changing world by assigning human aspects to the seas, mountains, winds, etc...We need some reason, some defining aspect, to explain our existence and place within the universe we know.
I would advise, if you have doubts, to err on the side of caution and strengthen your faith in God. If I were able to do the same, I would.

Sorry you seem to have been ignored....

I also have no belief...but I am a 'militant atheist', one who knows that religion is harmful to mental health, especially children.

Reconsider allowing your children to practice faith rather than pursue knowledge, it is the best thing you could do for them.

amicus...