Serious question about God

[cymry]

But it is their choice

I was told the faith I should follow, then chastised for questioning that faith...
I will not do that to my children. Some day when they are older they may have the same questions I did...which usually when it came right down to it were given the blanket answer "You just have to have Faith"...but no matter whether they do or not,I will always support what they choose.
I wholeheartedly believe religion is a personal decision. If it makes them happy, and gives them a sense of comfort, I'm happy.
Forcing your beliefs on someone else only and ever leads to contention and injustice.
I appreciate your opinion, but they will choose their own path.

Cymry

 

[Halo_n_horns]

You are contradictory, and are missing a major point called 'acceptance'.

Re-read the fifth line. Its all there and there's nothing contradictory about it.

 

[English Lady]

cymry - It really pains me when I read things like this, God encourages us to ocnstantly ask questions of our faith, to search our hearts and check we're tuning into the right channel as it were. Questions should be encouraged, and never dismissed. I'm glad you're nurturing your children as you are it seems like just the thing to do.





Anyhow, back to prayer.

Did i mention in my bit that prayer doesn't have to be vocalised? You know, you don't have to sit down and pray, you pray just be living. Now if only i could rember who it was this would be a better tail, but a monk, possibly a sainted fella, said that everything you do should be a prayer.


So if you're uncomfortable with the whole idea of prayer with the sitting down and actually saying or thinking words thing, don't worry, you don't have to do that to actually pray.

He knows you. He knows what you want, what you need, what you're thankful for. Prayer is just a way of discovering it for yourself

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

There's St Francis of Assisi with "Preach the gospel, and when necessary use words".

 

[English Lady]

There's St Francis of Assisi with "Preach the gospel, and when necessary use words".

Oooh I like that, but I don't think it's what I'm thinking of. I'll have to ask my mum.

I do like that though, I think it should be included in the "You're a Christian!" Welcome pack

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

Oooh I like that, but I don't think it's what I'm thinking of. I'll have to ask my mum.

I do like that though, I think it should be included in the "You're a Christian!" Welcome pack

I like it too. An old teacher I deeply respect used to say "your actions are so loud I can't hear what you are saying". REgardless of spiritual orienatation I think that is a truth well considered.

 

[English Lady]

I like it too. An old teacher I deeply respect used to say "your actions are so loud I can't hear what you are saying". REgardless of spiritual orienatation I think that is a truth well considered.

Clever teacher! I am so going to use that phrase with my daughter.


And it's not really a thread jack 'cos it kinda goes with the subject in hand

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

Well I've watched it for a while, not really wanting to chime in because my own thoughts and feelings on pryare and such are a bit odd so.....

But the quote fits to a degree and there it goes.

 

[Guest]

Sorry you seem to have been ignored....

I also have no belief...but I am a 'militant atheist', one who knows that religion is harmful to mental health, especially children.

Reconsider allowing your children to practice faith rather than pursue knowledge, it is the best thing you could do for them.

amicus...

Ami, I've said it before - but I think you're way off base here.

As confused as I remain, it is still somewhat refreshing to realize you have fewer answers than me.

 

[Guest]

I do appreciate everyone's comments, by the way.

It's interesting to see how everyone has a different approach, how each person has their own unique way of worshipping or praying (or not).

That makes my situation seem more normal, for lack of a better word.

And thank you for the lovely PM's. It seems I'm not at all alone in my struggle.

Barring TV evangelists and their ridiculous rhetoric, maybe I will find my way through the maze.

 

[amicus]

My two younger daughters, both under 25 and one named Sarah are currently dabbling in religion, much to my chagrin.

Faith and belief, to me, indicates a weak mind, a mind unwilling to look upon reality with clear focus and reason.

Once you force belief on your mind, it then seeks more of the same, for consistency at the expense of real knowledge.

Perhaps I do 'know' less than you in many areas, but what I do know, I know, not just accept on faith.

Still, to each his/her own.

amicus http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=119203

 

[Guest]

My two younger daughters, both under 25 and one named Sarah are currently dabbling in religion, much to my chagrin.

Faith and belief, to me, indicates a weak mind, a mind unwilling to look upon reality with clear focus and reason.

Once you force belief on your mind, it then seeks more of the same, for consistency at the expense of real knowledge.

Perhaps I do 'know' less than you in many areas, but what I do know, I know, not just accept on faith.

Still, to each his/her own.

amicus http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=119203

Perhaps you haven't read what I previously posted, but I'm having a a great deal of difficulty accepting anything on faith.

Hence this thread.

I think many people question religious beliefs after suffering a traumatic event.

But I'm not willing to debunk it all yet - not without deeper thought. And more reading. And more discussion with intelligent people.

Of course, when I told my pastor I was studying Buddhism because there was much less bullshit in it than Christianity (I thought he'd be horrified) he just chuckled. And then he offered me a couple of books to read on the topic.

Good luck to your daughters on their journey. They'll need it.

(And you stay out of their way.)

 

[English Lady]

I do appreciate everyone's comments, by the way.

It's interesting to see how everyone has a different approach, how each person has their own unique way of worshipping or praying (or not).

That makes my situation seem more normal, for lack of a better word.

And thank you for the lovely PM's. It seems I'm not at all alone in my struggle.

Barring TV evangelists and their ridiculous rhetoric, maybe I will find my way through the maze.

Amen sister.

Don't struggle alone, we're all in the same maze, if we keep up communication we might find the centre yet


Amicus, I do wonder if your intense hate of Faith has pushed your daughters toward it, I wish them well on their journeys.

 

[Guest]

I just read this thread over again, and I'm touched anew by all the terrific people who abide here in the AH.

Thank you.

 

[fifty5]

I'm an atheist cum agnostic. There are some miraculous things about the universe (for instance, the exact value of G, the gravitational constant: there's apparently a window of a few per cent that makes the universe possible - a couple more or less and stars either wouldn't form, or would burn out too fast to permit the evolution of life).

Despite such miracles, either physics works or it doesn't. If it does - and there's no evidence so far that it doesn't - then "GOD" doesn't interfere on anyone's behalf.

Nevertheless I do believe that prayer works, just like placebos do. I believe that faith is a real force, whether or not "GOD" is.

My abhorrence is those people who abuse their faith to damage others - whether by action or inaction - and pray (vocally or by action) for harm to others.

 

[granola_girl]

Sorry you seem to have been ignored....

I also have no belief...but I am a 'militant atheist', one who knows that religion is harmful to mental health, especially children.

Reconsider allowing your children to practice faith rather than pursue knowledge, it is the best thing you could do for them.

amicus...

Atheism IS a belief. Don't kid yourself.

Just a thought, admittidly simplistic, but worth consideration:

Let's say you coose to believe in God, the Bible, heaven and hell, Christianity in general. If death then is indeed 'nothingness', what have you lost?
You believe that there is no God, no heaven or hell, etc. If you die and discover you were wrong you will be up shit creek, and there will be no turning back, no chance for reconciliation.

Belief is a choice.
Faith is a choice.
Your whole life is just a series of choices, even the choice to refrain from choosing.

 

[JohnShaft]

I would disagree...

...that faith is a choice. If you choose to have faith I don't think it's real faith. Faith is something innate within you. I'm not choosing not to believe in Christianity. I can't make myself believe it, and I certainly wouldn't want to live as a "Christian" out of fear, which is essentially what you are implying one should do so they won't be "up shit creek".

 

[fish_fish]

One of the most profound statements I have seen on evil is actually in C. S. Lewis' children's series, The Chronicles of Narnia. I admire Lewis's nerve in dealing, in the final book - The Last Battle - with death and the end of life and faith. It's tough ground for a children's book, and he handles it well


Lewis' point (I think) is that evil's worst power is much more than its mometary ability to inflict physical misery or suffering. Its most profound danger is its potential to convince us that good is impossible - whether a good and caring God, or the good in our fellow men. It's a powerful truth, I think, and one that is inevitably tested when we see the worst in humankind. It's a struggle to believe in good when evil has such power in this world. But God never offered power in this world, and that I think is where the truth of it lies.

This world is not the world we will live in. It is a passing shadow, and filled with struggle. There is much good in it, and much evil. In the end, however, what happens in it is less important than what it makes us.

I think of this world in much the same way. There is good and bad, and at times we will blunder into foolishness or be assaulted by nature or our fellow men in ways that seem cruel and unfair. But it is in confronting these elements that we become complete people. And hence my view of prayer. I pray to God in much the way that I speak to my parents, in good times or in bad. I thank them for all they've done to try to help me, and all of the good things that have come of it. I ask for aid when it can be given, while knowing that it will not always be in their power or in my interest for them to grant immediately a solution to the problem facing me. And at times I simply ask them to be with me, when there seems to be no solution. I ask them to let me know that they care, and to help me through those points when my pain is a bafflement to me, and I cannot see why I suffer.

Shanglan

I think i wanna be a horsey

 

[amicus]

Well hello, Granola girl...welcome also to this frothy site.

The alternative you express, that of believing for, 'what have you got to lose...' is so old it even has a name in philosophy and although it slips my mind, I am sure someone will remind us.

However, I would like to address two points, one, that atheism is not a 'belief' if you are familiar with the way your mind and the universe in fact works.

We acknowledge the existence of something, basically, if we can see, hear, smell, taste or touch it, our five senses. We can call that 'empiracle' knowledge, that which can be proven by experience and experiment.

Of course, there are abstract forms of empiracle knowledge also, such as the emotions of love, hate, anger, rage, empathy...et cetera; we know what they are and what they are made of and why.

There is no empiracle evidence to support the existence of a deity. None.

If you choose to believe, then you must do so on faith, you must accept, without empiracle knowledge, the existence of something unseen and unfelt.

The definition of the word, 'atheist' is: One who disbelieves, or does not accept the existence of a god or gods.

Atheists do not 'believe' in anything, it is not a 'belief' pattern, or function. It is a rejection of faith as a means to knowledge and an acceptance that the only way to gain knowledge is through empiracle evidence, provable, visible evidence.

The second issue I wish to address is your expression of the thought that there is nothing to lose by believing and everything to gain if you are right.

Untrue. What you have to lose is your sanity and your rational faculty and your self esteem.

To accept a belief that purports that man is a creation of a supreme being is to destroy the ego, the inner self, that very sense of identity that makes us human, rational animals.

Further, the human mind only functions well in one way, that of observing reality, as it exists, then classifying and categorizing that reality into manageable and logical, rational non contradictory compartments for conceptualization and abstraction.

Add to that the irrational concept of a surpreme being and every facet of your ability to reason rationally is challenged.

In other words, if you 'know' such things as the chemical table of elements, such things as the laws of physics and mathematics, the 'real' things that we deal with, day to day but then you accept and believe in such things as vampires, demons, devils, resurrection, miracles, satan, hell, the easter bunny and santa claus, then your mind will rebel and betray you as it cannot accept those contradictions of your faith.

good luck...


amicus...

 

[fish_fish]

I think I really do see it that way right now. For someone to win, someone else has to lose.

I'd actually feel guilty now praying, because for my most heartfelt wishes to happen, someone else is going to get burned.

There are so many instances of that in the Bible, I remember.

Why did Daniel not get eaten? Because the lions were too full - they had a big meal of Christians the previous night.

Why were Moses' people finally let go? Because all first born male children across Pharoah's kingdom were killed. Forget's Pharoah's stubbornness, it took death to create new life for the Hebrew slaves.

And we praise God for answering our prayers, while someone else suffers in grief? I don't understand.

Some wiccans, while casting a spell, add after the statement of their intention: "This or something better for the good of all concerned."

It might not hurt for you to add something similer to your prayers.

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and great thought. I can see what you are saying, and it does make sence to a certain degree, but I don't think that it neccessarily has to be so. No I don't believe that something bad has to happen to someone for something good to happen to another.

For example: Let's say that you want a job. Someone doesn't have to be fired or die for a job to open up; they could get promoted or transfered or get a better offer from another company. Or they could have published there novel and gotten a big fat advance to write 6 sequals.

If praying for your needs seems to selfish, what about praying for the world instead? Pray for the bigger ideals that you hold, such as for the hugry to be fed, for miserable to be comforted.

And of course you can think about what you already have and simply pray in thanksgiving. Pray to ask God what you can give to the world, rather than what you can take from it.

Some famous guru type person said, "Be the change that you want to see in the world" or something like that.

Pray not for things or blessings or fortune, pray only for guidence. Pray for strength of character. Pray to be an agent of change and a force for good in a world that needs more people who care.

Hope this helps.

fishy.

 

[fish_fish]

For Jews, prayer is supposed to be a way of honoring God and his works and giving thanks. To ask for something is to imply that you're unhappy with the way things are working out, which is to second guess God's wisdom, which is a sin. This is especially true in Islam.

I believe in questioning God. Truely. I think it's ok.

A good place to start might be to ask God the questions she is asking us; She might give better answers than we do.

 

[fish_fish]

As a complete asshole, er... I mean agnostic, I can't see any reason to pray to some mystical being. Though I must admit that if someone is suffering I would wish for that suffering to go away- whether it be starvation, pain, or whatever.

I always wonder where religion came from. As an agnostic I would think it was a way for the masses to be controlled- give them a set of rules to live by and promise them happiness in a future life. A bit like government in a way.

I'll go back to my cave now.

I think that a set of rules to live by can be a very good thing. Especially when we live in groups- but even if we don't. If we have no rules and no expectations of ourselves- well let us just say that I have been there and it's not a pretty site.

 

[fish_fish]

Prayer

Loving God, look with mercy

upon the human race you have created.

Instil in our hearts a vision of your kingdom

in which the destructive poverty of our world

is destroyed and consigned to history.

May we all live together in peace, truth, justice and love,

sharing the resources of the earth.

And grant, gentle Father, that the Holy Spirit may give us

the will and the courage to act to make a difference,

in order to make real your kingdom among us.

This we ask through Christ our Lord, Amen.

http://www.sacredspace.ie/makepovertyhistory.html

 

[fish_fish]

Prayers for Peace

A Buddhist Prayer

Evoking the presence of the great compassion, let us fill our hearts with our own compassion - towards ourselves and towards all living beings.

Let us pray that all living beings realise that they are all brothers and sisters, all nourished from the same source of life.

A Muslim Prayer

O God! O our Master! You are eternal life and everlasting peace by your essence and attributes. The everlasting peace is from You and it returns to You. O our Sustainer! Grant us the life of true peace and usher us into the abode of peace. O Glorious and Bounteous One! You are blessed and sublime.

A Jewish Prayer

Cause us, O Father, to lie down in peace, and rise again to enjoy life. Spread over us the covering of your peace, guide us with your good counsel and save us for the sake of your name. Be a shield about us, turning away every enemy, disease, violence, hunger and sorrow. Shelter us in the shadow of your wings, for you are a God who guards and protects us, a ruler of mercy and compassion…. Blessed are you, Lord, who spreads the shelter of peace over us, over His people Israel, and over all the world.

A Jain Prayer

Lead me from death to Life, from falsehood to Truth.
Lead me from despair to Hope, from fear to Trust.
Lead me from hate to Love, from war to Peace.
Let Peace fill our heart, our world, our universe.

A Sikh Prayer

By the grace of God's name
May humanity find itself lifted higher and higher.
In thy dispensation O Lord
Let there be good in all humanity.

A Hindu Prayer

Oh God, lead us from the unreal to the Real. Oh God, lead us from darkness to light. Oh God, lead us from death to immortality. Shanti (Peace), Shanti, Shanti unto all. Oh Lord God almighty, may there be peace in celestial regions. May there be peace on earth. May the waters be appeasing. May herbs be wholesome, and may trees and plants bring peace to all. May all beneficent beings bring peace to us. May thy peace itself bestow peace on all, and may that peace come to me also.

A Baha'i Prayer

Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be fair in thy judgement, and guarded in thy speech. Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness and a home to the stranger. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light to the feet of the erring. Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew to the soil of the human heart and fruit upon the tree of humility.

Prayer of an 11 year old Indian boy
on hearing of Sino-Indian border fighting

Lord, make this world last as long as possible

Prayer of St Francis of Assisi

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
Where there is injury; pardon.
Where there is doubt; faith.
Where there is despair; hope.
Where there is darkness; light.
Where there is sadness; joy.

http://www.sacredspace.ie/peaceprayer/pp_day1.htm

 

[fish_fish]

here is a site that shows a lot of different prayers and you can see that they have many different uses. It is also interesting to browse and reflect on:

http://www.worldprayers.org/

I think that the best thing that you can do is take your questions straight to God in prayer. And set aside some quiet time to listen as well as to talk.