So, what's to be done?

[cloudy]

For what it's worth, I don't see anything wrong with the AH the way it is either.

There are writing-related discussions going on all the time, even in threads where the initial subject has absolutely nothing to do with writing. Just check in at Abs every once in awhile. While there's plenty of silliness and flirting going on, on just about every page, someone makes mention of a story they're working on, an idea they have for a story, or just begs for help with a story (my personal favorite).

I'm just as tired of the political rants as anyone else is, more so, maybe. I don't see any reason for eleventy-million threads all saying the same thing, but hey - I don't have to read them. And, if by accident I do go into one of them, unable to tell by the title what it is, well, the back button on my browser works just fine.

But, for me, restricting things here to nothing but writing-related subjects would take all the fun out of it entirely.

I've been to the GB a few times, and while there are some very nice people, I don't see the type of thoughtful, intelligent, and polite posts that we (mostly) have here. And I think any type of serious, author-type threads would die so fast it would make your head spin.

Like someone else has said already, no one makes me read the threads I don't want to read, and no one makes me participate in the silly stuff that goes on. If I don't like it, I don't read it, but I'm certainly not gonna bitch about someone else enjoying it.

 

[Guest]

Wouldn't the way to address the lack of talk on writing be just to start more topics on writing?

Why do drastic change?

I am a reader, not a writer, but seems to me if you want to discuss writing and styles and ideas etc..... just do it.

Anyway, I am sure I am missing something as my thought there seems to be simple.

Quite!

 

[fifty5]

Hmmm.....

Trouble is, I like this pub...

And the people in it.

The suggestion to split it into café plus hangout (though my arogant opinion is that hangout and symposium might be more apt) does tickle my fancy, but mabe a bit of assertiveness could fix it just as well - if your 'serious' thread drops off the bottom of page 1, you can just bump it...

Of course, the 'best of all possible worlds' would be more acdemic threads - or would it? There's lots of authors here, so can I ask them why they don't start more of the 'authorly' kind of thread?

My own answer to that question is that, basically, I'm a wannabe - who hasn't the perseverance to get the shit shovelled. But it does give me a buzz to mix with those who really do make it hit the fan.

This thread, in its very existence, makes some sort of point. It isn't about writing, but it is about writing resources. It is a serious discussion.

They do happen - and do get supported - but, in the end, I do look at the AH as a pub where my mates hang out.

But since that set of mates are authors, I do know that if I do want to get my shit-shovel out - and need to ask about some technicality of shit-shovelling - I'll be asking some pretty well qualified folk.

Meanwhile, it's fun to drink the beer and just chat, wink the odd wink, and know that if I need to pour my heart out, the folk here will be supportive.

My two-pennorth is that maybe it might be an idea to ask Laurel to tweak some of the forum descriptions. To take just two, Story Feedback claims its just about stories that are already posted, but it isn't. The AH is advertised as a place where authorly questions are posed and answered - and it isn't.

The AH is a pub where most of the clientele are actual, or wannabe authors.

And I like it here, just like it is.

Eff

PS Contrast JL's Newbies thread with some of those on the GB (been to that pub just often enough to know I like it better in this one) - and then say again that the AH is just-another-GB.

Betcha caint!

PPS Read JL's last post on her newbies thread - and if you care, send her a PM.

Off thread - and I am so glad that I can do that - and that there will be folk here who take me up.

 

[Guest]

Eff:

 

[neonlyte]

Current First Page Threads

Writing related 17
Politics 8
Flirting 3
Diversion 13 (Places like Ab's, one liner comps etc)

I'm happy with that balance.

Put up a writing question an hour or so ago and had a dozen or more responses.

If you want more writing threads it's simple - start more.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Lisa, just so you know, I personally have absolutely no problem with the AH just the way it is. Quite the opposite, in fact. I love the diversity here, and the laid-back approach by most.

My initial thread-starter was kind of facetious, but I was raising some serious points, too. Every now and again there are posts stating unhappiness about the way things are here, and I can usually understand where that poster is coming from. I guess I just stuck my oar in and attempted to discuss what might be the "problem" (not that I think there is one), and just kinda talk it through.

However, there is no solution. As a few have said: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. From those who have posted here alone, it seems the vast majority are happy with things just the way they are.

Having said that, I do think QC's suggestion of an "Authors' Cafe" would help stop a lot of the points raised from time to time.

Lou - tries too hard sometimes

I would never want to stop any of the points raised on you, uh, I mean by you. And you are so right about the AH being great just as it is.

You started a good thread for whatever reason and lots of people are throwing their two cents in, I had a nickel to spare so I threw it in.

I have a thing about monitoring and moderators, and I think we all want less of it not more. I can see having threads devoted to serious subjects entirely, not the AH as a whole. Or someone deciding if a thread is allowed to be in one section or another. I don't think I could have a serious discussion with you without occasionally mentioning I want to have your babies (where is the patch on your butt?) and who would decide if my post was serious enough to be allowed in what section or whatever.

I just like the sections being divided as they are by thread, like you, where you can jump from serious to funny to outrageous with an easy click. I have hi-jacked threads, I usually try to steer them back on track when I'm through.

Here is my confession (Lisa whispers "don't tell") I have had a confrontation on a non-erotic writing site. It started with a moderator deleting one of my posts for not being serious enough, it was not offensive, it was even nice, but not serious enough. People complained, the moderator jumped in sounding like God Almighty and began threatening those complaining, which of course enraged them. Other Mods started in and it became a brawl.

The site manager asked me PM to calm things down, I explained that not only did I not know most of the peoples, my posts were being blocked by the God Mod. People began quitting, even those with paid memberships. The site manager insulted me PM. I quickly PMed back that the God Mod was small minded, and if he agreed with her censorship then perhaps he had a small penis.

He posted my PM, a freakin PRIVATE MESSAGE, and explained that I would be banned from the site for life. I quickly cancelled to deny him the satisfaction. Since many people had my e-mail I was told that a site-wide riot erupted with most forums discussing CENSORSHIP OF AUTHORS WORDS.

I got over it quickly, I mean, I sure didn't want to be a part of that. Oh well, there is the confession behind my fear of Mods and censorship.

I love Lit, and hope all changes are just the changes in the threads, not the Moderator Changes.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

I see all your point, and I raise you...

If the Ah remains as it is, will it ever be a GB? No. Just because we're writers and they mostly aren't. That part is true, I think. And as Lisa Denton seemed concerned over, censorship isn't really something that anyone wants either, at least I don't think it is. Wouldn't be authorly, now would it? another:

But the question of whether it's becoming more like the GB? I'd say it is, and as it gets more and more like that, we'll get more and more cliquey, and we'll also get harder and harder on new folks who come here. My experiences on the GB (and they're just mine, I know) are that newbies aren't really welcome there, and people aren't friendly to each other. We're strongly opinionated here, and while the election has given us some lapses, IMHO, we're still fairly nice to each here, and respect that others have thier own opinions, eventhough we may not respect those opinions. That's seems to be because we respect ourselves more, and (if I may interpret dr. M's thread on High School Character) we seem to understand what it means to be "outsiders," for the most part, anyway. So long as we don't get a Hanns Schmidt here, I don't think anyone wants to really change the place, just kinda'...alter it some. Keep the threads that appeal to the writing aspect toward the top.

And fifty5, it is a pub, or a bar, or a cafe, or something like that. I like the people here, even cantdog, who I've only spoken to on political threads, which means a lot of disagreeing. It's a better place here, even when we're not discussing writerly threads, even if we really did have a series of threads concerning cheese. It's better even to discuss mindless topics when the people discussing aren't mindless. I think it needs preservation without damaging the initial usefulness of it; I guess that's my motivation to make the suggestions I've made here.

Oh, well. I just thought there might be some confusion as to what the problem is. Most likely I just wasted more words that could have been NaNo bound.

*shrug*

Later,

Q_C

 

[Lisa Denton]

I see all your point, and I raise you...

If the Ah remains as it is, will it ever be a GB? No. Just because we're writers and they mostly aren't. That part is true, I think. And as Lisa Denton seemed concerned over, censorship isn't really something that anyone wants either, at least I don't think it is. Wouldn't be authorly, now would it? another:

But the question of whether it's becoming more like the GB? I'd say it is, and as it gets more and more like that, we'll get more and more cliquey, and we'll also get harder and harder on new folks who come here. My experiences on the GB (and they're just mine, I know) are that newbies aren't really welcome there, and people aren't friendly to each other. We're strongly opinionated here, and while the election has given us some lapses, IMHO, we're still fairly nice to each here, and respect that others have thier own opinions, eventhough we may not respect those opinions. That's seems to be because we respect ourselves more, and (if I may interpret dr. M's thread on High School Character) we seem to understand what it means to be "outsiders," for the most part, anyway. So long as we don't get a Hanns Schmidt here, I don't think anyone wants to really change the place, just kinda'...alter it some. Keep the threads that appeal to the writing aspect toward the top.

And fifty5, it is a pub, or a bar, or a cafe, or something like that. I like the people here, even cantdog, who I've only spoken to on political threads, which means a lot of disagreeing. It's a better place here, even when we're not discussing writerly threads, even if we really did have a series of threads concerning cheese. It's better even to discuss mindless topics when the people discussing aren't mindless. I think it needs preservation without damaging the initial usefulness of it; I guess that's my motivation to make the suggestions I've made here.

Oh, well. I just thought there might be some confusion as to what the problem is. Most likely I just wasted more words that could have been NaNo bound.

*shrug*

Later,

Q_C

No wasted words, you and Lou make lots of sense. That was why I was suggesting initial posts outlining staying on the subject of writing.

I was only trying to merge my fear of Mods with the intelligent ideas you guys were coming up with.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

I would never want to stop any of the points raised on you, uh, I mean by you. And you are so right about the AH being great just as it is.

You started a good thread for whatever reason and lots of people are throwing their two cents in, I had a nickel to spare so I threw it in.

I have a thing about monitoring and moderators, and I think we all want less of it not more. I can see having threads devoted to serious subjects entirely, not the AH as a whole. Or someone deciding if a thread is allowed to be in one section or another. I don't think I could have a serious discussion with you without occasionally mentioning I want to have your babies (where is the patch on your butt?) and who would decide if my post was serious enough to be allowed in what section or whatever.

I just like the sections being divided as they are by thread, like you, where you can jump from serious to funny to outrageous with an easy click. I have hi-jacked threads, I usually try to steer them back on track when I'm through.

Here is my confession (Lisa whispers "don't tell") I have had a confrontation on a non-erotic writing site. It started with a moderator deleting one of my posts for not being serious enough, it was not offensive, it was even nice, but not serious enough. People complained, the moderator jumped in sounding like God Almighty and began threatening those complaining, which of course enraged them. Other Mods started in and it became a brawl.

The site manager asked me PM to calm things down, I explained that not only did I not know most of the peoples, my posts were being blocked by the God Mod. People began quitting, even those with paid memberships. The site manager insulted me PM. I quickly PMed back that the God Mod was small minded, and if he agreed with her censorship then perhaps he had a small penis.

He posted my PM, a freakin PRIVATE MESSAGE, and explained that I would be banned from the site for life. I quickly cancelled to deny him the satisfaction. Since many people had my e-mail I was told that a site-wide riot erupted with most forums discussing CENSORSHIP OF AUTHORS WORDS.

I got over it quickly, I mean, I sure didn't want to be a part of that. Oh well, there is the confession behind my fear of Mods and censorship.

I love Lit, and hope all changes are just the changes in the threads, not the Moderator Changes.

Damn...

We're strict about things on the RP board here. If it isn't RP-related, you can't post it. Have pissed off a lot of people who thought it was a board for different types of RP (they belonged in the SRP section) not to mention the woman I pissed off when she posted an ad for her site there. I got the small mind response for that one, though I still don't know why (although my theory happens to be that she was an idiot and couldn't come up with anything else to say). I agree with not censoring, but there is also a place for guidance, shall we call it, where we have to draw a line and say "this doesn't belong here." I know it sounds like censorship, but I don't believe it is. There are simply places where certain things don't belong. People have a right to thier own sexual behavior, and there's a place in life for religion, but don't try to have an orgy in the church. That's al.
Does it apply here? No, I guess I'm high-jacking as well. But here, in the AH, I think we'll get back on track pretty quick.

No offense intended to anyone (especailly those orgy-church-goers),
Q_C

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Oh, and another off-topic comment, Lisa.

your sig-line: wet isn't a color, it's a flavor.

Q_C

 

[cantdog]

I see all your point, and I raise you...

If the Ah remains as it is, will it ever be a GB? No. Just because we're writers and they mostly aren't. That part is true, I think. And as Lisa Denton seemed concerned over, censorship isn't really something that anyone wants either, at least I don't think it is. Wouldn't be authorly, now would it? another:

But the question of whether it's becoming more like the GB? I'd say it is, and as it gets more and more like that, we'll get more and more cliquey, and we'll also get harder and harder on new folks who come here. My experiences on the GB (and they're just mine, I know) are that newbies aren't really welcome there, and people aren't friendly to each other. We're strongly opinionated here, and while the election has given us some lapses, IMHO, we're still fairly nice to each here, and respect that others have thier own opinions, eventhough we may not respect those opinions. That's seems to be because we respect ourselves more, and (if I may interpret dr. M's thread on High School Character) we seem to understand what it means to be "outsiders," for the most part, anyway. So long as we don't get a Hanns Schmidt here, I don't think anyone wants to really change the place, just kinda'...alter it some. Keep the threads that appeal to the writing aspect toward the top.

And fifty5, it is a pub, or a bar, or a cafe, or something like that. I like the people here, even cantdog, who I've only spoken to on political threads, which means a lot of disagreeing. It's a better place here, even when we're not discussing writerly threads, even if we really did have a series of threads concerning cheese. It's better even to discuss mindless topics when the people discussing aren't mindless. I think it needs preservation without damaging the initial usefulness of it; I guess that's my motivation to make the suggestions I've made here.

Oh, well. I just thought there might be some confusion as to what the problem is. Most likely I just wasted more words that could have been NaNo bound.

*shrug*

Later,

Q_C

Love the attitude, man. And you are right, if I've seen a change it's been toward chaotic contentiousness, or GB-ness. But it's still fun, and I would hate to see it change.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Oh, and another off-topic comment, Lisa.

your sig-line: wet isn't a color, it's a flavor.

Q_C

There is only one way to settle this arguement...................................





http://www.imageshosted.com/images/010857bite.jpg



Where else but the AH could we discuss these writing styles?

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Bite?

Nah, I'd rather lick...

Q_C

 

[Guest]

I am so glad this thread went where I intended.

Lisa, I so see your point about heavy-handed moderators. It would be awful if something like that happened here.

Q_C, you have come up with something very interesting, I just wish we had some more input from others.

Cant, thanks for your sane voice of reason and plain rationallity. Always appreciated.

Lou

 

[Guest]

Current First Page Threads

Writing related 17
Politics 8
Flirting 3
Diversion 13 (Places like Ab's, one liner comps etc)

I'm happy with that balance.

Put up a writing question an hour or so ago and had a dozen or more responses.

If you want more writing threads it's simple - start more.

That was worth saying again.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Now that you brought it up...

Just recently, I had attempted to start an "Everything you want to know about Authoring" post on a hi-jackable thread titled "Practice." Needless to say, my hi-jack was quickly hi-jacked which lead me to the conclusion that people just are not interested in the idea.

I wasn't all that upset about it, but it made me wonder if the majority have now become more interested in the common banter than the actual topic of writing in this section. I admit I am also guilty of posting on a more general spectrum, but that's partly based on the reality that the broader subjects are what garner the responses.

I'm a fairly open-minded individual, and appreciate that some days you just prefer to share whats going on in your life with the people that are close to you. I also respect that politics and religion shouldn't be shunned niether, but...
EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.

I have also wondered if the maybe boards could benifit from another section strictly for politics and religion. It is obvious judging from the many posts such a place would have a wide fan base.

 

[cantdog]

Actually, helene, I was expecting that you'd be starting the Authoring thread; waiting for it, as it were.

"Practice " went nowhere, but people will begin with the first couple of posts, and then accept or reject the idea of posting there or reading further. Your idea was too far down the line to really be the subject of the thread, but I sort of expected to see it.

Do you have a good clear idea where to start with such a thread? "Everything" is a bit broad, so you'll need a startoff topic or two. It could become a fixture if the first couple of topics strike people well.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Five of the SCARIEST words in the English language — “I just had an idea.”

There is a technique that I just recalled from a couple of email list writing groups I was in.
We would exchange a LOT of mail between twenty people. So each type of letter would have a Filter Header to sort them.

[ASS] for Assignment. <The uptight one used [ASN] to spare their blushes.>
[SUB] for a submission.
[CRIT] for a critique.
[THK] to Acknowledge Critiques.
[ANN] for Announcements.
[OT] for Off Topic messages.

We could do something like that at the beginning of each header like:

[WRIT] Use of Double Quotes?
[FUN] Movie quotes about body parts.
[ART] An Article for Salon.com
[FLIRT] Can You Match My Piercings?

And so on.

Personally, I prefer not always knowing what a thread may be about until I open it up.

I also like the quirky way a topic changes, goes off into the blue, comes back onto topic, and then suddenly someone sees a new blue-shade they had overlooked before.

But that’s just me.

Maybe something like that would work for the poster who is very serious and will get pissed if anyone takes it off-topic. At least it would be better, than doing nothing and getting all bent out of shape when someone unknowingly takes THEIR thread off topic.

 

[gauchecritic]

Current First Page Threads

Writing related 17
Politics 8
Flirting 3
Diversion 13 (Places like Ab's, one liner comps etc)

Just to put my wedge in, (and thank Neon for researching what I was going to do before I got to his post) this spread of threads is also ammunition for the AH=GB supporters. (Count me as one)

Assuming that I'm an average sort of poster/reader:

Less than half of the threads are 'writerly', having just looked at the front page I notice there are just 11 threads that I would open.

I am subsribed to 89 threads, 4 of which I started, that's 89 threads in the last 30 days.

What we have here is a communication problem. (Who said it and in what film?)

The problem it seems is one of turnover. The large majority (taking the first page as an exit poll) of threads are non-writerly, are posted to more often and kick writing threads off the front page almost as fast as a CV "Wha'd'ya know" thread.

Now before you say "You should make more threads or post more often, you miserable old bastard." my last serious writing thread "Going Postal" garnered just 10 replies and was posted less than a fortnight ago.

Don't tell me this place isn't the GB.

Gauche

 

[Carl East]

Personally, I think you're all making a mountain out of a mole hill. This board like any other goes through changes, those changes are natural because people come and go all the time. If there's a thread that I don't like ie political, religious or whatever then I avoid it. As for describing the AH as another GB, you'll find it goes through stages and nine times out of ten ends up back where it started.

It's a fun place where pretty smart people congregate to chew the fat, and cut loose with some rapier like wit. Ok, only one or two of them do that, the others try. lol


Carl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Just Callin' It How I See It.

I don't think we're smarter than the GB. I don't think we're really all that much more polite or more respectful, not significantly so. I think its just smaller, and the people (because of that) associate closer.

Election time has made things rough, and I don't feel bad about pointing fingers... we haven't had a huge outpouring of "Yay, Bush Won" threads, so that should help identify whose spamming the board with the redundancy on the politics, lately. Hopefully, with a week or two, things'll calm down. We'll stop getting the daily mail on week old news.

Past that, I'm not sure an Author's Cafe is necessary. This place isn't that big. I'm not sure we'd get much mileage out of a new board. As for a strictly Politics and Religion board, that seems to diverge from the point of Lit too much for my tastes. And, I don't think I'd ever use it--I can't tolerate the sort of people a board like that draws for very long.

Changes I'd like to see (unless you think this place is perfect, I'm sure you've got ideas, too):

Less hijacking of threads to the goofy fun flirtations. Its cute the first... maybe dozen times or so.
More writing threads, for sure. Half the reason I'm here, actually.
More "bringing the community together" stuff, which doesn't exclude religion or politics, just people who are being assholes about it.

 

[impressive]

So each type of letter would have a Filter Header to sort them.

Okay -- but where would you put the thread asking about piercings (as I'm guilty of that one) in terms of both personal interest AND info for a story (since I have written about it & intend to do so again)? Same with issues of fidelity (also guilty) and communication (that, too)?

It's all fodder to me -- even the flirting and blurting. Just 'cause it also happens to be fun or frivolous doesn't diminish its value to me.

Take Colly's NaNo story or the Lit Olympics -- which use AH "characters." Without the banter, these would have never been possible. I'd rather know my colleagues. RL character development, if you will.

Just like the advice that writers must read in order to improve their craft. Reading here, even the [OT] twitty flirt stuff, is educational to me -- especially the personal interactions, blurts, etc.

But, I'm repeating myself.

 

[neonlyte]

Just to put my wedge in, (and thank Neon for researching what I was going to do before I got to his post) this spread of threads is also ammunition for the AH=GB supporters. (Count me as one)

What we have here is a communication problem. (Who said it and in what film?)

No problem.

Shrek - the mule (though my first thought was Goofy)

The problem it seems is one of turnover. The large majority (taking the first page as an exit poll) of threads are non-writerly, are posted to more often and kick writing threads off the front page almost as fast as a CV "Wha'd'ya know" thread.

Now before you say "You should make more threads or post more often, you miserable old bastard." my last serious writing thread "Going Postal" garnered just 10 replies and was posted less than a fortnight ago.

Don't tell me this place isn't the GB.

Gauche

It's fine by me if this is AH/GB. I really don't have time to spend on two boards so here I'm getting 2 for the price of 1. Depending upon my mood, I'll post on trivial stuff, or on the serious stuff.

I would strongly urge anyone with a yearning for more writerly comment to visit the Story Discussion Circle, you need to make the effort, to contribute, but excellent feedback comes from those who respond.

 

[Weird Harold]

What we have here is a communication problem. (Who said it and in what film?)

I believe that Strother Martin's character in Cool Hand Luke made the concept famous with the phrase, "What we have here is a falure to communicate."

I have no idea who used the wording you gave.

About two years ago, the subject came up and the consensus of AH regular at that time was this is an "Authors Hangout" not a "Writers Resource" forum. It's place to discuss anything that Authors choose to discuss with other Authors.

Impressive makes a very good point about "RL Character Development."

Every discussion on any topic here is useful for an author interested in developing characters with opinons and attitudes. The opportunity to learn about people's personality from only the text they type is an invaluble tool for learning to write believable personalities for your characters using only the text you type -- whether you base the characters on AH regulars or just subconsciously steal an occasional phrase to give your characters a little personality.

Someone esle mentioned that almost every thread includes something "writerly" to make a point whether it's the main topic of the thread or not.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Okay, but ask yourself this: When can't you find those things, those RL character development informational tidbits? And where? you can find it at your place of employment, at the bus stop, on the subway, on the radio or television, in the GB, and wherever else you live or visit or do things. It's everywhere people talk and are social. If we divided this forum, it wouldn't be for the sak eof keeping the "fluff" out of the "serious" threads, not in my viewpoint, really. But it's easy to say "why not start more writerly threads?" and harder to do so. When the notion strikes you, you post, and often, especially for us writers, the ntion strikes less often to post those threads than cheese and movie quote threads. With a divider in place, we'd have access to both, and we'd have more orderly management of them.
A lot fo the things you guys are posting in terms of not changing things is convincing me more and more that we need the change, as odd as that may sound. Too many of these comments are ones that might have once been arguments to keep all the threads on Lit as a whole on one board. Organization is required, the question is: Is it required here just yet?

Q_C