The beauty of submissive men

[PDatura]

As far as the difference between good stories and porn: There really shouldn't be a difference. Unfortunately the difference is profound. Porn puts its emphasis on speed (wham bam thank you ma'am). They know they're readers are just looking to get their rocks off and go often leaving the story without reading the rest of it afterward. So typically their stories have under-developed and stereotypical characters that play into the clichés in favor of the quick and heavy action. Alternatively (I hesitate to use the term) Good stories have something to say beyond just getting the readers rocks off. They use characters that go beyond the stereotypes in both the domme and submissive roles. Like Jacob in the Vampire Queen's Servant isn't naturally submissive. He's all alpha type of man. The type of man that could walk into a bar and expect to walk out with any woman he chose to invite to warm his bed for the night, but he chooses to submit to Lyssa because he's fallen in love with her, and much of the drama in the book is his battle with his own sense of self in serving her and being part of her world, a world that sees him as little more than we'd see someone's dog or other property 24-7.

Thank you so much for the suggestions; I'd forgotten that it was you who had made these, but I'm off to go read them.

Quite frankly, I've about had enough of RL BDSM, and I'm thinking I may take my kink and considerable skills to literature and leave it there. I think I'll be a lot happier if I do that.

Perhaps the books will take my mind off things, at least.

As for your comments on porn vs stories, you are correct. I think I may have to tackle this gross inequity in literature.

 

[Veroe]

What do you want to see in porn as a Domme? as a sub? What is it for you that is lacking? Other than overuse of stick?

To clarify on these questions. Well-rounded characterization. Show both the hard, harsh, sadistic side and in balance showing her soft, emotional, feminine side. Somehow merging those contradictory states into a whole character. Too often in doms of both genders the characters are one note. All dominance all the time, but no one is that all the time...

I don't think I'm explaining this very well.

What I find lacking in other portrayals is very subjective to me. I'm sure other guys here would see my ideas of an ideal Dommes' portrayal and shake their head saying: "No, no, no. He's got it all wrong."

Like humiliation and beating solely for the domme's pleasure rather than the sub's discipline or punishment, oh and verbal abuse. I find those to be big turn offs personally. It plays into the preconception I had of BDSM in general before reading VQS that BDSM was just a license or an excuse for a asshole (male or female) to act like an asshole to another human being (the classic playground bully that's grown up but never matured).

I'm not against sadism you understand, but I am against capricious sadism. And I am completely and unashamedly against abuse. Though I do recognize others may get an erotic thrill out of it.

If I'd have to put it into simple words I'd say I'd want a story with a more symbiotic type of relationship rather than parasitic between Domme and Sub with characterizations and plot events that tests and highlights the strength of that bond.

 

[Veroe]

Thank you so much for the suggestions; I'd forgotten that it was you who had made these, but I'm off to go read them.

Quite frankly, I've about had enough of RL BDSM, and I'm thinking I may take my kink and considerable skills to literature and leave it there. I think I'll be a lot happier if I do that.

Perhaps the books will take my mind off things, at least.

As for your comments on porn vs stories, you are correct. I think I may have to tackle this gross inequity in literature.

Really...which one are you thinking of reading. Mrs. Hill's done quite a few and if you find the vampire stuff a turn off in VQS I can recommend her more contemporary femdom stories.

Joey Hill's Natural Law comes to mind off the top of my head.

Also if you're thinking of getting into some writing you'd be more than welcome in the Roleplaying forum over here on Lit. You could use that develop your voice and characterizations like I did.

 

[Veroe]

Geez I've really turned this thread into an ad.

Sorry everybody.

So let's open it up. Hey you guys out there...have you ever come across a story here on Lit or elsewhere where you felt the writer managed to provide a great portrayal of a domme in it?

 

[PDatura]

Really...which one are you thinking of reading. (snip)

Also if you're thinking of getting into some writing you'd be more than welcome in the Roleplaying forum over here on Lit. You could use that develop your voice and characterizations like I did.

Um... all of them? I should be done with the three you mentioned maybe tomorrow.

I haven't popped over to roleplaying yet. I've been a writer for many many years, but a little extra development never hurts. Thank you for the heads up!

 

[redzinger]

If you've read through all of those, there's my Power Games series:
https://www.literotica.com/s/playing-power-games

I've said this before, but I always love a bit of feedback about the trio.

 

[JonathanBair]

new here

Sorry all I am new to this group and was reading a old post. I hope I am not out of place posting on old post.

Why thank you.

I'll look to do that in the future.

First though can I ask a question? What was the first foray into Femdom or Submission for any of the real domes or Subs out there? I guess what I'm interested in is not the first time they exerted dominance in some power dynamic with a submissive or submitted to a mistress in some power dynamic, but what was the moment when you found you were different from the vanilla types around you? What was that like?

Well I have role played a lot with me on the sub side, but never did connect with anyone in person where I got to be on the sub side. I am a switch personality and did have a sub girlfriend. That ended when I was getting ready to leave my local area. I would love to meet with my friend who I have done most my sub side role plays with over the last 17 years. We had a few almost trips but one day I will meet her. lol

As for the day I met her was a big turning point in my life. I was a mid teen then
and I was growing up in a small conservative farm town. I had been into things like face sitting to objectification and she was the first person to help me feel like I wasn't a freak. That's how we started the long friendship by role plays.

My sub girlfriend wasn't in to that, and closed the door on the first and only non vanilla relationship

 

[PDatura]

If you've read through all of those, there's my Power Games series:
https://www.literotica.com/s/playing-power-games

I've said this before, but I always love a bit of feedback about the trio.

Thanks, I'll look into those!

Right now the Vampire queen one is annoying me with head-jumping and cliches, but I'm sensing it's going somewhere more interesting.

 

[Veroe]

Thanks, I'll look into those!

Right now the Vampire queen one is annoying me with head-jumping and cliches, but I'm sensing it's going somewhere more interesting.

'head-jumping' is that a complaint on the telepathy between them of the second mark or Mrs. Hills way of jumping from one character's perspective to another's suddenly in a scene?

To get back onto topic. How do you like the characterization of Lyssa and Jacob as Domme and Sub?

I'll say it certainly does get more interesting, but I'm an unabashed fan of it. So take that with a pretty large grain of salt there.

 

[PDatura]

'head-jumping' is that a complaint on the telepathy between them of the second mark or Mrs. Hills way of jumping from one character's perspective to another's suddenly in a scene?

To get back onto topic. How do you like the characterization of Lyssa and Jacob as Domme and Sub?

I'll say it certainly does get more interesting, but I'm an unabashed fan of it. So take that with a pretty large grain of salt there.

The jumping from one character's POV to another abruptly in a scene is what I was referring to. That's a very old crutch, and is extremely difficult to use well. I'm still reading though.

I can see how the characterization could be alluring. At the very least, it's not cookie-cutter. But I think I'm not deep enough yet to say for sure. I'm still chafing at the inciting incident feeling forced. But I do like Jacob wrestling with himself. The internal conflict is well done. Somehow, I think this will get much better as the lion's share of the in-world rules are established, the physical antagonists introduced, etc.

 

[Veroe]

Cool. Well Happy reading PD. Hope you like it as much as I did as you get more into it.

 

[redzinger]

Thanks, I'll look into those!

Hope you enjoy. It's actually one I was considering on extending into a full-length novel, but I've had so little feedback, I wasn't confident enough to.

Right now the Vampire queen one is annoying me with head-jumping and cliches, but I'm sensing it's going somewhere more interesting.

Head hopping is one of my personal bugbears. I only learnt to identify it after I started writing, and a friend pointed out I'd done it briefly in an early draft. Since then, I've been a lot more careful.

Clichés I also try to avoid, but they creep in every now and again, when my guard is down.

 

[gwenrider]

mmm
it sounds really seductive

 

[PDatura]

Hope you enjoy. It's actually one I was considering on extending into a full-length novel, but I've had so little feedback, I wasn't confident enough to.



Head hopping is one of my personal bugbears. I only learnt to identify it after I started writing, and a friend pointed out I'd done it briefly in an early draft. Since then, I've been a lot more careful.

Clichés I also try to avoid, but they creep in every now and again, when my guard is down.

I'll be sure to give it a read, then. Unfortunately, I haven't had as much time as I would like this weekend, but I'll give them a go and let you know what I think.

Head hopping annoys the shit out of me like third person omniscient in present tense for a historical novel; You better be a goddamn genius with plot and nuanced prose or else I'll be quite put out.

I think I probably did it myself when I was young. Also, considering my history, I tend to avoid anything that looks like it could be the minutes from a D&D game consisting of 14-year old players.

 

[eroticspank]

I think your assessment about the fear is accurate. I would say that, when I got what I craved as a Domme, I got all three of the whammys you listed at once: deep love, deep satisfaction, and extreme neediness. I can't imagine that's easy to deal with on the other end.

Walking up and offering submission is serious and should be taken seriously. Internet culture offers us the option of sitting, inputting a desire, and getting that out, and all anonymously, so I get why it would be easy to get trapped in the insta-serve porn aspects and not escape to real, true dominion or service. Many subs are just in the habit of going out and getting their jollies on demand, so suddenly accepting dominion seems to be a foreign concept. I get why so many Dommes are ball-busters when it comes to chastity; libido is a powerful temptress.

"it is about her happiness" is the point that I think many would-be subs miss. The myth of the Domme Deficit should be replaced with the truth: sub Deficit. If subs got it through their heads that it's about pleasing the Domme and not themselves, there wouldn't be so many Dommes choosing to exit via the door marked 'Fuck This, I'm Outta Here'. Hell, I'm standing next to that door myself.

Thanks for this reply and I am happy you got "all three" at once, you mention above. I really like all of your comments and answers, I wish I had to time to reply to all of them. It seems like it would be easier to just sit down over some coffee and talk for hours about all of this.

Anyway, you bring up a good point regarding the "it's about her happiness". In my mind, I feel like this feeling of pleasing my partner is in every man. But it seems to lay dormant inside some men and never really developed or touched. Just like all of us (again in my mind) have as part of our nature to serve others. I am talking about giving on Christmas, Homeless shelter dinners, Food Bank work, etc that most Religions tap into...that part of us that likes to give and serve others.

Why not take both of these tendencies and bring them into the bedroom and honor/serve our women or partners? Even in a vanilla relationship I feel there are times when one partner just focuses on the pleasure and satisfaction of the other. For some women, this is hard to do--sit back and let their man please them, and for some men this is hard to do--sit back and let their woman please them. In my experience, those types tend to be subs or switches like me.

There may be many reasons why someone finds it hard to receive pleasure. We all have issues of some kind. Once we go into the bedroom it is hard to leave the demons or dragons of our past behind us. Those are part of what makes us. Add a D/s element to the play as well as BDSM and now our mind is a big part of the play. That makes it even harder to not include any demons, past bad experiences behind us. A relationship, where there is true intimacy (IN TO ME SEE) makes it so much easier, the bedroom can be clear of issues (because you have dealt with them together) and the couple can enjoy each other with understanding, caring, and love.

ES

 

[eroticspank]

Joey Hill's Natural Law comes to mind off the top of my head.

Also if you're thinking of getting into some writing you'd be more than welcome in the Roleplaying forum over here on Lit. You could use that develop your voice and characterizations like I did.

Thanks for this and the other book recommendations....I liked them a lot. I am always looking for more material to read.


ES

 

[eroticspank]

Second, I think I need to ask what people in this thread think "good" stories and porn are to them. Or maybe even start a new thread referencing this one. I'm sensing a gap in the market, and with the right information, some authors could fill it.

What do you want to see in porn as a Domme? as a sub? What is it for you that is lacking? Other than overuse of stick?

I have read quite a few lit stories that were very enjoyable regarding the D/s genre. I like the "non consent reluctance" category in lit the most. BUT, I can't remember any of the stories. I will look at my favorites list when I get a chance later.

Porn is more about many sex scenes, very graphic and not much dialogue. I actually like to read Porn myself when I am really horny because if it is well written, it can be a big turn on.

I feel the same way watching Porn videos. I sometimes skip the undressing part, and get right to the action. However even when I do that, the dialogue and passionate words are still most important to me. I actually watch some Hentai videos or Japanese XXX cartoons, mainly for the dialogue, they have some great stories ideas and dialogue.

I love conversation and dialogue. In fact, I find I can't really write a story without it. If I was better are writing dialogue I think I would have about 40 stories here on lit. To me good writing has a buildup to the sex scene and lots of dialogue. It is like watching a Series on TV. CASTLE for example. Watching them be frustrated with each other, then say the same things together, then save each others lives, when they finally have a sex scene it is very hot because of all the build up.

One of my favorite movies is "Before Sunrise". Spoiler alert: There is NO sex in the movie. They meet on a train and talk all night. For some reason, by the end of the movie, I was really turned on.

The best D/s writing I can think of involves lots of dialogue between the Domme and sub...plus the writer sharing the "feelings" of both. I know that can be tricky if you reveal too many feelings but some is very important I feel. For example if it is a story from the male sub's point of view, share most of his feelings with the occasional sharing of hers when appropriate.

ES

 

[Veroe]

I think the best scenes in stories involving D/s are the ones that maintain a good balance between the sub's attraction to the domme and the fear of what she may do to him. That internal tension if kept at a high state makes the scene very compelling to read. That's why a lot of them focus on the first times or the big punishments.

I know in reality though it'd be impossible to maintain that level of tension probably unhealthy if they did.

 

[eroticspank]

I think the best scenes in stories involving D/s are the ones that maintain a good balance between the sub's attraction to the domme and the fear of what she may do to him. That internal tension if kept at a high state makes the scene very compelling to read. That's why a lot of them focus on the first times or the big punishments.

I know in reality though it'd be impossible to maintain that level of tension probably unhealthy if they did.

I agree. I like this also. It reminds me of one of the things said earlier in this thread by Erochic. That internal fight of the sub to ignore his own libido and do want the Domme wants. You can see him sweat, he bites his lip, his dick is rock hard, but he submits to her wishes and desires. That is why I like to know what the sub is thinking in a story or at least a description like this above on how hard it is for him. (Pun intended The Domme that keeps the sub at that level of tension, playing into his desire, is making it tough for the sub. That is a big part of this. It is not easy but the end result is awesome.

I don't want to get too much into describing my own fantasies. Just about any story with good writing, dialogue, I find a pleasure to read.

ES

 

[eroticspank]

Forced Orgasms

Here is another thought from a male perspective:

I was on another thread regarding "Forced Male Orgasms" and I saw several guys post, "Yeah How can it be forced to have an orgasm?" Or "Where do I sign up for this?"

In my mind, they don't get it. As men we are used to being control of our lives and especially our dicks. We decide when we urinate, get hard, when we have intercourse, and when we cum. We have control over our dicks. When a man does not have control of his dick like he cums too soon or does not cum at all, it can be a big deal emotionally, not just physically.

As a sub, I feel that I am giving up control of my dick and my orgasms to my Domme. She decides when and if I will cum, I no longer have that control.

One of the things that introduced me to D/s play was a form of "Forced Orgasms". My partner took control of my dick and when it spurted. I did my best to control myself, but I was under her complete control. I had several orgasms but somehow felt humiliated, and strangely aroused. I could not get my mind around what happened. That was over 20 years ago.

A forced orgasm is not about walking up to a woman when you are ready and telling her to give you a forced orgasm. It is about her walking up to you when she is ready and slowly taking control over your body and dick. The point of release is at her whim, part of your eventual surrender, and may be at a very embarrassing moment.

My point is as a sub, giving up control of your dick to your Domme and seeing things that way helps to prevent us from putting our needs above our Domme.

ES

 

[Veroe]

I think the ramifications of a domme controlling their sub's orgasms is something on the list of things people can't understand from people trying to explain. They only understand after they experienced it for themselves.

 

[eroticspank]

I think the ramifications of a domme controlling their sub's orgasms is something on the list of things people can't understand from people trying to explain. They only understand after they experienced it for themselves.

Perhaps that is true, you make a good point. The key, I feel, is giving oneself (your body) up totally to the Domme as a sub. By doing that, I find it easier to stay away from being selfish and or putting my needs above that of my Domme.

ES

 

[PDatura]

Thanks for this reply and I am happy you got "all three" at once, you mention above. I really like all of your comments and answers, I wish I had to time to reply to all of them. It seems like it would be easier to just sit down over some coffee and talk for hours about all of this.

Well, my psyche could have done without the neediness, that's for sure. It absolutely is easier to sit over coffee and talk for hours, at least for me. It's something I love to do, and this is a subject that doesn't get exhausted quickly!

Anyway, you bring up a good point regarding the "it's about her happiness". In my mind, I feel like this feeling of pleasing my partner is in every man. But it seems to lay dormant inside some men and never really developed or touched. Just like all of us (again in my mind) have as part of our nature to serve others. I am talking about giving on Christmas, Homeless shelter dinners, Food Bank work, etc that most Religions tap into...that part of us that likes to give and serve others.

Why not take both of these tendencies and bring them into the bedroom and honor/serve our women or partners? Even in a vanilla relationship I feel there are times when one partner just focuses on the pleasure and satisfaction of the other. For some women, this is hard to do--sit back and let their man please them, and for some men this is hard to do--sit back and let their woman please them. In my experience, those types tend to be subs or switches like me.

You make some excellent points here. There certainly is a spectrum, but this falls in line with my experience as well.

There may be many reasons why someone finds it hard to receive pleasure. We all have issues of some kind. Once we go into the bedroom it is hard to leave the demons or dragons of our past behind us. Those are part of what makes us. Add a D/s element to the play as well as BDSM and now our mind is a big part of the play. That makes it even harder to not include any demons, past bad experiences behind us. A relationship, where there is true intimacy (IN TO ME SEE) makes it so much easier, the bedroom can be clear of issues (because you have dealt with them together) and the couple can enjoy each other with understanding, caring, and love.

ES

I've had some heavy pleasers and some heavy takers, and every bit of their attitudes had to do with their demons. My ex was spoiled by his mother and sisters, and was a demanding, abusive little tyrant. The best lover of my life was an only child of a single mom, and he veered towards very attentive and eager to please.

The D/s difficulties I've had were all connected to such demons and lack of communication about them. Actually, I'd say it was more about "I have my demons, and please note that my having demons is no reflection on you" being thoroughly misunderstood on both sides. In the bedroom was not the problem, it was out of it was the issue. But yeah, those demons come into the bedroom right with you.

 

[PDatura]

I have read quite a few lit stories that were very enjoyable regarding the D/s genre. I like the "non consent reluctance" category in lit the most. BUT, I can't remember any of the stories. I will look at my favorites list when I get a chance later.

Porn is more about many sex scenes, very graphic and not much dialogue. I actually like to read Porn myself when I am really horny because if it is well written, it can be a big turn on.

I feel the same way watching Porn videos. I sometimes skip the undressing part, and get right to the action. However even when I do that, the dialogue and passionate words are still most important to me. I actually watch some Hentai videos or Japanese XXX cartoons, mainly for the dialogue, they have some great stories ideas and dialogue.

I love conversation and dialogue. In fact, I find I can't really write a story without it. If I was better are writing dialogue I think I would have about 40 stories here on lit. To me good writing has a buildup to the sex scene and lots of dialogue. It is like watching a Series on TV. CASTLE for example. Watching them be frustrated with each other, then say the same things together, then save each others lives, when they finally have a sex scene it is very hot because of all the build up.

One of my favorite movies is "Before Sunrise". Spoiler alert: There is NO sex in the movie. They meet on a train and talk all night. For some reason, by the end of the movie, I was really turned on.

The best D/s writing I can think of involves lots of dialogue between the Domme and sub...plus the writer sharing the "feelings" of both. I know that can be tricky if you reveal too many feelings but some is very important I feel. For example if it is a story from the male sub's point of view, share most of his feelings with the occasional sharing of hers when appropriate.

ES

This is all wonderful input, thank you!

 

[PDatura]

I think the best scenes in stories involving D/s are the ones that maintain a good balance between the sub's attraction to the domme and the fear of what she may do to him. That internal tension if kept at a high state makes the scene very compelling to read. That's why a lot of them focus on the first times or the big punishments.

I know in reality though it'd be impossible to maintain that level of tension probably unhealthy if they did.

I agree. I like this also. It reminds me of one of the things said earlier in this thread by Erochic. That internal fight of the sub to ignore his own libido and do want the Domme wants. You can see him sweat, he bites his lip, his dick is rock hard, but he submits to her wishes and desires. That is why I like to know what the sub is thinking in a story or at least a description like this above on how hard it is for him. (Pun intended The Domme that keeps the sub at that level of tension, playing into his desire, is making it tough for the sub. That is a big part of this. It is not easy but the end result is awesome.

I don't want to get too much into describing my own fantasies. Just about any story with good writing, dialogue, I find a pleasure to read.

ES

That level of tension is certainly not easy to maintain, but an inventive dominant can certainly ratchet it up to that level now and then. I imagine this is an advantage of periodic chastity also; the "maybe I'll get to cum today" must keep that tension going a bit!