The co-author gets screwed

[TheLobster]

I know databases, and I can tell you that this change would likely be hard to implement. I assume that the current relationship between the tables Authors and Stories is one to many, and changing it would require an additional table as a go-between, to store their primary keys. A change to the database this big would be a possible but a sizable undertaking.

Just so people don't think I'm going soft on Lit, much of the other stuff we asked for are simple frontend changes, way easier to implement. If they aren't ready to even acknowledge those things, I wouldn't hold my breath for this particular change.

An in-between solution would be add explicit co-authors, stored in a new N:N table, while still ascribing each story to one primary author internally. UI could then be changed gradually to reflect coauthorship, although certain queries (such as showing the list of all the stories to which someone has contributed) would certainly get more complicated.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I can understand the frustration, but how many people is this actually a problem for? I suspect the number of collabs is a fraction of a percent of the total number of stories published. I did a collaboration recently, and it went well enough to consider doing it again, so I do have skin in the game so to speak. I just can't see it as being with the sites time to make that kind of change to support such a small number of people.

Tiny, tiny proportion, even here in the AH where author connections might be more likely. But who knows, with the multiplicity of authors - keeping in mind the stat someone posted the other day, that 80% of the daily stories are from first time authors, who are likely to only ever publish half a dozen.

I've done four collabs with three writers. The approach we took was to submit the whole story to one account, and the other writer submitted the first thousand words or so to theirs, with a link at the end of the intro to the whole story. That way, the story got the feed from both of us. It worked well.

The alternative is to set up a third account - the "problem" with that, is you're effectively starting from scratch. Not that I see it's a "problem", more an inconvenience, not even a hassle.

 

[Actingup]

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that I wish more people were reading Penny! However, are there other factors?

You have published several other Loving Wives stories; Penny hasn't. (In fact, the inclusivity of Penny's stories would, I imagine, be an anthema to many LW readers.) So if I was a LW reader, it would make sense for me to follow you: you've a back catalogue to explore, and you may well publish more. There's no reason for me to follow Penny in such a scenario.

By the same token, as much as I adored Crossing the Line by @SinclairGroupLLP I haven't followed them because that story seems to have been a one-off. It's on several lists though...

I've published a single EV story that's my fourth most viewed story. It got a decent number of votes and comments too. But I didn't get more than a handful of new followers from it or the trans story I published the next day. Why would I? I don't really have other stories that would interest EV and trans readers.

So maybe that's what's going on? Partly at least.

Finally, I'd like to draw all your attention to these two profiles:
https://www.literotica.com/authors/SiteNonSite/works/stories
https://www.literotica.com/authors/ButteredCrumpet/works/stories

Now, there are slightly extenuating circumstances there. But still...

I think that's fair - it's a factor at least. It doesn't excuse (for me, anyway), commentators writing as though it'a single author story, but I'm probably expecting too much when some of them are just writing to express their outrage at something in the story (most comments are very positive). And thanks for the SiteNonSite/ButteredCrumpet example. Kind of messy!

I honestly don't expect anything to change here, but I appreciate the chance to vent and get thoughtful responses.

 

[Bamagan]

I assume you're talking about Lit's Story Games. I assure you they aren't very popular.

That was kind of my point: it's a low bar to hurdle for co-authored stories to be at least as enticing a feature as one of their recent major additions/overhauls. They have liked the interactive story idea since the early days of Lit and expended more than a little effort to realize it (again). So they'll put the work in for a functionality that doesn't necessarily constitute a major draw, if they like it enough. I'm dubious that co-authorship would be the kind of thing they became enamoured with, but the world is a very weird place sometimes.

 

[lovecraft68]

Collaborative account with a shared pen name and calling out at the start of every story who the two of you are.

Downside is readers don't recognize the shared name, and it won't get much attention, but it's the answer to the problem.

I also think-and this is fact, not snark- that Penny gets more than enough attention so is it that big of a deal more readers referred to the author whose page it was published on in this case? Does Penny care that much?

I co-wrote a long novel with another author here for a tag team challenge. It was originally published under a pen name for the challenge everyone posted under but once it was over, it had to go to one or the other. I told her she could have it on hers.

It ended up winning a W in a monthly, she offered to split the prize, I said don't worry about it, but fact is I wrote half of a long story that has a W I get no credit for.

Is it that big of a deal? No, I have plenty, its just an example of when you do something like this, and unless its under a shared name, someone is going to get snubbed to a degree. Site just isn't set up well for this.

 

[SimonDoom]

As Lovecraft pointed out, two authors can create a shared pen name. I recall KeithD did that with another author once and they won a contest together.

I don't see the current system as a "problem." It's simply a reflection of the way the site has always done things and its emphasis on reader satisfaction. Readers don't care who you are. They care about the story, whoever has written it. And to be honest I don't care as an author if they know who I am, either. I DO care about them reading my story--I want as many readers as possible to read and enjoy my story. If I co-wrote a story and my co-author got more credit for it than I did, I don't think I'd care that much (this is theoretical, since I haven't worked with a co-author yet).

What we're seeing here, as we see with other site features, is the result of limited bandwidth. This site is run by two people and they have limited time and resources, and they've chosen to focus their energies on some things and not others.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'll just say that with or without structural support for co-authoring or collaboration, it's a wonderfully fun and fulfilling experience if you find someone that you gel with, and I highly recommend that everyone try it at least once.

Ill agree, although ill point out you are the only writer here I know that's co-written with more than one other writer.

Careful, Penny, you might develop a... reputation... with that kind of behavior...

getting to the point where your words start to merge and synthesize until you can't remember who wrote a passage, you just know that you're proud of it?

I know on a couple of our collaborations, I often forget which part I wrote and which was @EmilyMiller

Then I remember she was usually the boss so all the good bits were probably hers

 

[PennyThompson]

ill point out you are the only writer here I know that's co-written with more than one other writer.

Careful, Penny, you might develop a... reputation... with that kind of behavior...

Just call me the village typewriter

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think that's fair - it's a factor at least. It doesn't excuse (for me, anyway), commentators writing as though it'a single author story, but I'm probably expecting too much when some of them are just writing to express their outrage at something in the story (most comments are very positive).

And they forget, just why they hate
Oh yeah, I guess misogyny
They’re not that sharp, but sharpen knives
Oh well, whatever, Loving Wives

1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb

Where the comments, are not gracious
And the craniums less capacious
Where the views are, quite Cretaceous
Here we are now, want to rate us

A castrato, and a bozo
A cornuto, who is loco

All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners

 

[Actingup]

And they forget, just why they hate
Oh yeah, I guess misogyny
They’re not that sharp, but sharpen knives
Oh well, whatever, Loving Wives

1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb, woman
1 bomb, 1 bomb, 1 bomb

Where the comments, are not gracious
And the craniums less capacious
Where the views are, quite Cretaceous
Here we are now, want to rate us

A castrato, and a bozo
A cornuto, who is loco

All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners, all are whiners
All are whiners

I love you Em, but I’m going to defend LW here because some of the comments are starting to approach Nix in length and thoughtfulness! And some are not, of course…

 

[PennyThompson]

I kind of want to run a qualitative coding analysis on the comments for our story, I feel like the "worst guy you've ever met in your life" commenters are probably less than 5%

 

[YmaOHyd]

I kind of want to run a qualitative coding analysis on the comments for our story, I feel like the "worst guy you've ever met in your life" commenters are probably less than 5%

Now I want to see what the qualitative analysis would be to determine the worst guy you've ever met in your life.

 

[iwatchus]

worst guy you've ever met in your life

This makes me think about a scene in the movie RED, where, after having been tied up with her mouth taped, then driven off, she says "Not the best first date I've ever had. Not the worst either."

Some depths of experiences I'm afraid to hear about.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And some are not, of course…

This

I got an Anonymous comment on one of my entirely fantastical stories this morning. I deleted it, but the gist was: I bet this isn’t even real, anyway I hope they all get AIDS.

It wasn’t in LW, but the reek of it reminded me strongly of that category.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’m going to defend LW here

I’d also suggest that experiences differ. It’s like a white middle aged senior male manager saying, “Well I’ve never suffered any sexually-motivated abuse in the workplace.”

 

[Actingup]

Just call me the village typewriter

I think we better move that to the ‘for a good time, call…’ thread!

More seriously, I used the academic analogy before because it’s a culture that embraces and encourages multiple-author collaborations and (imperfect) tracking of different combinations. Sluttish behaviour is expected and encouraged. People who just write their own single-author papers are weird in that world.

As Lovecraft pointed out, two authors can create a shared pen name. I recall KeithD did that with another author once and they won a contest together.

Yes, and that’s fine. But it does have the obvious drawbacks that you’d have to create a new pen name for each new combination, and those pen names have a tenuous link to each author in terms of ‘brand’. Which might be desirable if one of your brands is snuff fiction (elsewhere) and you want to focus on Disney princesses for a bit, of course.

I don't see the current system as a "problem." It's simply a reflection of the way the site has always done things and its emphasis on reader satisfaction. Readers don't care who you are. They care about the story, whoever has written it. And to be honest I don't care as an author if they know who I am, either. I DO care about them reading my story--I want as many readers as possible to read and enjoy my story. If I co-wrote a story and my co-author got more credit for it than I did, I don't think I'd care that much (this is theoretical, since I haven't worked with a co-author yet).

It’s not a ‘problem’ in the way that having submitted stories disappear into limbo is a problem. It’s more of an observed limitation.

What we're seeing here, as we see with other site features, is the result of limited bandwidth. This site is run by two people and they have limited time and resources, and they've chosen to focus their energies on some things and not others.

Of course! I’d rate this one as being on about page 11 of the Problems Toplist.

 

[PennyThompson]

I’d also suggest that experiences differ. It’s like a white middle aged senior male manager saying, “Well I’ve never suffered any sexually-motivated abuse in the workplace.”

This is one of the main reasons the story went on Acting's account tbh, I did not want my account to be on the receiving end of some of that nonsense

 

[EmilyMiller]

This is one of the main reasons the story went on Acting's account tbh, I did not want my account to be on the receiving end of some of that nonsense

There are some utter misogynists in that category. I mean there are some everywhere, including on AH, but there are many more in LW. Hating Ex-husbands would be a more accurate title.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Then I remember she was usually the boss so all the good bits were probably hers

So well trained…

 

[PennyThompson]

So well trained…

Get a doggie bed you two

 

[Djmac1031]

Get a doggie bed you two

You don't even wanna know what she rubs my nose in when I'm bad...

 

[Voboy]

I know on a couple of our collaborations, I often forget which part I wrote and which was @EmilyMiller

Dude, that's nothing. I've singlehandedly written every word in my catalog, and still I'm often puzzled at what's in there.

Today I got a comment on an old story. I cocked my head because I didn't remember the title. So I clicked on the comment and read a nicely organized, extremely thoughtful comment (from Anon) about the characters, their motivations, and the trends that reader had observed in the tale.

I had no idea what any of it referred to. Until I clicked on the story to remind me which one it was, and even then I found I'd forgotten most of what happened. It's a really weird (and slightly uncomfortable) phenomenon.

I'm with those who doubt this is a massive problem, but for the handful of people who do regularly collaborate, I can see that it must be kind of a pain in the ass. I've done a sort-of collab or two before, and it wasn't really for me. Not because I don't see the benefits, but because I'm a pantser and I tend to just write on the fly. It constrains me when I have to run my ideas by someone else.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Ill agree, although ill point out you are the only writer here I know that's co-written with more than one other writer.

You've got me on Ignore, then . Whenever this topic comes up, I mention that I've co-written with three other writers.

 

[PennyThompson]

You've got me on Ignore, then . Whenever this topic comes up, I mention that I've co-written with three other writers.

You literary slattern!

 

[Djmac1031]

You've got me on Ignore, then . Whenever this topic comes up, I mention that I've co-written with three other writers.

Or I just have an awful memory.

Ask @EmilyMiller she'll tell you. Or maybe she already has...