This is what is so offensive?

[JMohegan]

I'm not criticizing you or the admiral you quoted. Nor am I upset that Captain Top Gun Instructor got canned. My point is simply that this went on for years under two different COs who took no action, moved on, and got promoted. I smell a cover up. And a fall guy to hush things up.

Here I am respectfully asking that the entire case be investigated and let the chips fall where they may. Is that so bad?

Well, your obsessive hatred for the Obama administration infects every post on the thread, and I can't see what that has to do with respectful anything, especially the topic at hand. And asking for the entire case to be investigated is very different than the critique in your opening post.

But otherwise - no. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the bold.

You have an absolute right to ask for further investigation. Those folks work for us. We pay their salaries & benefits, and elect their Commander in Chief. You, me, Stella, all of us.

Well, not Simon and Kybele. You know what I mean.

Good news, by the way. From the bottom of the article I linked:

The relief of Capt. Honors occurs as the investigation continues into the inappropriate videos that Honors made while serving as Enterprise's executive officer from 2006-2007. The investigation will continue to look at all aspects of the production of the videos, to include the actions of other senior officers who knew of the videos and the actions they took in response.

 

[WriterDom]

Does not equal the following:



So which is it, WD? Either you're dismissive of the notion that the XO's actions were worthy of criticism or you're a fair-minded serious person who only wants the facts to be brought to light. You can't have it both ways.

I could ask you something similar. A week ago you were talking about strapping 6'6" gay warriors who were going to rescue me on the battlefields of Afghanistan and now gays are fragile little teacups who might jump off the back of the ship at a gay joke. Which one is correct?

I said at the beginning he should probably be written up for it. Thoughts evolve and now I wonder why his two commanding officers didn't do jack shit about it for all the time it went on? Who on the ship filed complaints and how were they handled? If anyone did. There was an admiral on board that apparently ended up for a while in the White House working for Obama. Did he know about it?

Apparently to you guys this was the crime of the century against humanity and I seem to be the only one interested into actually looking into it? Why is that?

 

[JMohegan]

Who on the ship filed complaints and how were they handled? If anyone did.

"Sailors who were on board the ship at the time told the newspaper last week that the videos were Honors' idea. He starred in them, wrote the scripts and recruited subordinates to work on them, primarily while the Enterprise was deployed.

The videos were shown roughly once a week across the ship on closed-circuit television.

It's unclear why the videos recently resurfaced, although sailors who spoke to the newspaper said they remain accessible on shipboard computers. One sailor said he mailed a complaint about the videos to the Navy Inspector General last week. Others said crew members who raised concerns aboard the ship in 2006 and 2007 were brushed off."

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/01/videos-cost-honors-his-command-carrier-enterprise

 

[WriterDom]

What's interesting is everything I've heard about this guy suggests the crew loved him. If anyone was really out to get this guy well, they had plenty of reason to turn this shit in, oh about 1500 days ago. Just circulate a few tapes around to MSNBC, NBC, Youtube, and congressman Barney Frank. Hell, you wouldn't even have to out yourself to do it.

 

[JMohegan]

What's interesting is everything I've heard about this guy suggests the crew loved him. If anyone was really out to get this guy well, they had plenty of reason to turn this shit in, oh about 1500 days ago. Just circulate a few tapes around to MSNBC, NBC, Youtube, and congressman Barney Frank. Hell, you wouldn't even have to out yourself to do it.

Careful now, WD. The real source of your resentment is surfacing again.

 

[WriterDom]

See, there is another source that says he was asked to stop. You don't ask, you order, and even the XO can go to the brig and live on bread and water for a while. And I heard the bread and water doesn't come separately. Yuck.

The Navy first called them "humorous skits,"

That pretty much sums it up and I doubt that he was ever asked to stop. Notice how the tone shifted from "humorous skits," to nasty admiral letter after said admiral got his phone call from whomever? Sec of Defense perhaps?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I could ask you something similar. A week ago you were talking about strapping 6'6" gay warriors who were going to rescue me on the battlefields of Afghanistan and now gays are fragile little teacups who might jump off the back of the ship at a gay joke. Which one is correct?

what the fuck. You need to get a grip.

I said at the beginning he should probably be written up for it. Thoughts evolve and now I wonder why his two commanding officers didn't do jack shit about it for all the time it went on? Who on the ship filed complaints and how were they handled? If anyone did. There was an admiral on board that apparently ended up for a while in the White House working for Obama. Did he know about it?

Apparently to you guys this was the crime of the century against humanity and I seem to be the only one interested into actually looking into it? Why is that?

If you actually want to be taken seriously and treated with respect in discussions-- you can get over the hyperbole. You sound like a clown.

You sound like a Chihuahua that belongs to a clown.

 

[JMohegan]

See, there is another source that says he was asked to stop. You don't ask, you order, and even the XO can go to the brig and live on bread and water for a while. And I heard the bread and water doesn't come separately. Yuck.

The Navy first called them "humorous skits,"

That pretty much sums it up and I doubt that he was ever asked to stop. Notice how the tone shifted from "humorous skits," to nasty admiral letter after said admiral got his phone call from whomever? Sec of Defense perhaps?

Robert Gates? Okay. What if he did? He'd be entitled to make that call, right?

Fits the job description, wouldn't you say?

 

[WriterDom]

Robert Gates? Okay. What if he did? He'd be entitled to make that call, right?

Fits the job description, wouldn't you say?

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That pretty much sums it up.

I don't know what the proper protocol would be and it would depend on the pissed off level of the president. I'd say either Gates or a Joint Chief. Or it could have been generated anywhere along the chain of command. Or with the guy you quoted. I have no idea.

Yeah, always been some degree of bias in the military but you have to give some of that credit to DADT. Yeah, you can join, but there are gays and straights and you are on the subhuman side so don't tell us and don't let us catch you holding gay hands at the movie. That's a way to prolong bias, not end it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That pretty much sums it up.

And it seems to me it answers some of your questions. Bush didn't give a shit about gay rights, Obama gives a little bit of a shit about gay rights. It's hardly worth complaining about homophobic humor when the SCO can be assumed to be homophobic himself.

having said that-- I would like to point out that the jokes that i saw were not exactly what I would call "homophobic." They were gay-directed, but more in the sense of "we're all gay here heh heh heh" and that was only one of the directions the humor moved in.

HOWEVER! you STILL don't leave loaded guns lying around for anyone to pick up. You STILL don't leave the car keys dangling in the driver's side door (Ask me how I know that one ) and you STILL don't allow ephemeral, misconstrue-able humor to be recorded for posterity.

I don't know what the proper protocol would be and it would depend on the pissed off level of the president. I'd say either Gates or a Joint Chief. Or it could have been generated anywhere along the chain of command. Or with the guy you quoted. I have no idea.

Yeah, always been some degree of bias in the military but you have to give some of that credit to DADT. Yeah, you can join, but there are gays and straights and you are on the subhuman side so don't tell us and don't let us catch you holding gay hands at the movie. That's a way to prolong bias, not end it.

wow, thank you for explaining that! Who would ever have thought it?

 

[JMohegan]

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That pretty much sums it up.

I don't know what the proper protocol would be and it would depend on the pissed off level of the president. I'd say either Gates or a Joint Chief. Or it could have been generated anywhere along the chain of command. Or with the guy you quoted. I have no idea.

Yeah, always been some degree of bias in the military but you have to give some of that credit to DADT. Yeah, you can join, but there are gays and straights and you are on the subhuman side so don't tell us and don't let us catch you holding gay hands at the movie. That's a way to prolong bias, not end it.

Ring the bells, WD. We agree on something this day.

Two things, actually.

First, that DADT prolonged the bias, and second, that we do not have a military dictatorship in this country. As I said, those folks work for us. And as Stella says, elections matter.

 

[WriterDom]

The Navy said earlier that Honors had been dealt with regarding the videos several years ago. But it was not clear whether he was reprimanded and, if so, whether that was done in writing. Officials have said privately that it would be nearly unthinkable for Honors to have been promoted and given command of the ship if he had received a written reprimand.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/ap-navy-officials-video-probe-will-cover-higher-ups-010511

He was dealt with. Then promoted. Now fired. These guys are spinning like a top.

Four Flag officers are involved. Now the two senior admirals are more like guests of the ship and don't get involved other than what the entire battle group is doing. Unless they have video DNA on their pea coats they just have to deny any knowledge. But the two Captains now turned Admirals have to be wishing this would just go away.

 

[Netzach]

What's interesting is everything I've heard about this guy suggests the crew loved him.

Obviously not all of them.

You want to do stuff like this you'd better wonder if everyone's saluting the man when you walk by.

Duh.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"spinning like a top."

Not even.

Always interesting to see people who can't understand that things change over time-- sometimes not even very much time ... it's rough on them though, and then they join tea parties, or churches, or withdraw from the world.

or kvetch forever on porn forums.

 

[WriterDom]

"spinning like a top."

Not even.

Always interesting to see people who can't understand that things change over time-- sometimes not even very much time ... it's rough on them though, and then they join tea parties, or churches, or withdraw from the world.

or kvetch forever on porn forums.

Blah blah blah, gay rights and all that. Stella doesn't care about facts just that she gets some blood and she did so now lets be done with it. And throw in some tea party and church crap for good measure.

I think Owen should sue for wrongful dismissal myself. It would be like if the VP was an appointed position and Joe Biden was having off color VP movie night every week in the White House and somehow, Bush and Obama either weren't aware of it, or TOLD him to stop and he didn't. It takes the willing suspension of disbelief to buy that one.

But to make it even a better analogy, the population of the US would be 6000 and they would all be living in the White House, and there would be only one tv station that was broadcasting Joe's skits.

 

[WriterDom]

What amazes me is the view that "People's heads were going to spin" in the south over DADT. Like there hasn't been gays in the military for 16 years or so. There wasn't even a shrug that I could see. Now I sure you can point me to some 1%er fundy website where someone is outraged. Most people on the street barely noticed.

And it would have passed 70/30 on the first day of the Obama administration in the senate with an up or down stand alone vote . But you gay people got played by political football once again by one of your own. Suckers.

I don't blame Obama though. He might have lost the House pushing it that fast.

 

[Homburg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srbLyuMgDe8

Get a fucking grip, people.

I laughed a couple parts, largely because I know so many sailors and I know the sort of humourous hijinks they get into underway. Being stuck in a big steel box for months at a time leads to minor levels of insanity, and the accepted reactions to this are stupid humour and grudgefucking your superiors in a quiet waste space somewhere. Can't exactly show videos of the grudgefucking, so humour becomes the topic of the day I guess.

I think it showed poor judgement, sure, but largely because it was impossible for him not to get caught. SW nails it when he says this happened because somebody held a grudge. Capt Honors had been at this exact sort of thing for years on the Enterprise, and nobody said jack. Well, okay, nobody that mattered, else it would have been full stop.

Kinda makes me want to see if any of the guys I knew on the Enterprise knew this guy.

--

First, that DADT prolonged the bias.

Quite so. Here's hoping that repealing it will go a ways towards squelching said bias.

--

Four Flag officers are involved. Now the two senior admirals are more like guests of the ship and don't get involved other than what the entire battle group is doing. Unless they have video DNA on their pea coats they just have to deny any knowledge. But the two Captains now turned Admirals have to be wishing this would just go away.

Yep, the Admiral basically has an apartment on the ship and does not involve himself in the day to day operations of the vessel. He lives there when he needs to and does admiral stuff otherwise.

--

The bottom line is that this sort of thing goes on every day, on every ship, and in many non-Navy units as well. The difference is that they don't get caught, probably because they don't take it to the level of production that this guy did. Most of the time, it is just a way to keep the troops from going completely nuts. And, admittedly, most of the time the XO (and other high level officers) are not involved beyond the usual wink and nod that turns a blind eye to the goings-on.

Edit: I don't find this offensive. Just stupid. Yep, he deserves to get fucked for it, but I don't see why it's national news. Sure, it's a big deal here locally, and should be, as the Enterprise battle group is a HUGE employer here, but is Paducah? Milwaukee? Whatever. This guy isn't an elected official.

Oh, wait, it's youtube friendly. Well, that makes it all more clear.

 

[WriterDom]

I know it's tough even today but try being locked up in a floating box with 5000 swinging dicks and no females. None, Nada. A normal day is 12 on 12 off if you are lucky. If with an air wing or the nuts and bolts of aviation it can be more like 18 on and 6 off during flight ops.

These kids and most of them are kids work hard and the conditions aren't great but at least there is lots to eat and a warm rack. The insanity level gets pretty high but if you have thick skin it can be a lot of fun.

 

[JMohegan]

and no females. None, Nada.

?????

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/01/previous-shipboard-videos-were-different-milder-stripe

 

[Stella_Omega]

Blah blah blah, gay rights and all that. Stella doesn't care about facts just that she gets some blood and she did so now lets be done with it. And throw in some tea party and church crap for good measure.

"Spinning like a top?" It's such a stupid phrase, that's all. TIMES CHANGE. SOMEONE was NOT happy about the jokes, but couldn't complain because TIMES HAD NOT CHANGED ENOUGH YET. Why is that "spinning like a top?" It's phrases like that that make you sound like a dumb fuck.

I think Owen should sue for wrongful dismissal myself. It would be like if the VP was an appointed position and Joe Biden was having off color VP movie night every week in the White House and somehow, Bush and Obama either weren't aware of it, or TOLD him to stop and he didn't. It takes the willing suspension of disbelief to buy that one.

But to make it even a better analogy, the population of the US would be 6000 and they would all be living in the White House, and there would be only one tv station that was broadcasting Joe's skits.

You DO know there's a HUGE difference between Bush's fundamental philosphy and Obama's, right? TIMES CHANGE.

 

[Netzach]

I know it's tough even today but try being locked up in a floating box with 5000 swinging dicks and no females. None, Nada. A normal day is 12 on 12 off if you are lucky. If with an air wing or the nuts and bolts of aviation it can be more like 18 on and 6 off during flight ops.

These kids and most of them are kids work hard and the conditions aren't great but at least there is lots to eat and a warm rack. The insanity level gets pretty high but if you have thick skin it can be a lot of fun.

I dunno, they had a TV program called CARRIER like 6 years ago? More? and a lot of very convincing trannies or something are in the Navy, including some pilots.

I think it was a pretty good look at wtf goes on on an aircraft carrier for morons like me who have absolutely no contact with anyone who's ever been in the military and just want to put daisies in guardsman's guns tra la la.

I had no idea it had gone that inclusive and DADT was that ineffectual, as to be an all male floating city with NO WOMEN ANYWHERE IN IT, but passing MTF's working everything from air control to flying some of the planes. Wow.

Maybe it was like that in 90 or something, but that's been 20 fucking years of women doing all the same shit as men in case no one's counting. There's a fuckton of women on ships for all the same reasons as men and generally the message that they're there to do jobs and not be your personal sexual outlet seems to have penetrated. Large generational shift around that whole thing.

Weirdly it seems that FAIR implementation of DADT was sometimes a good tool for discouraging fraternization among hets - I'm sure there'll be some other way to go about it. DADT could sometimes be translated into a general "we don't want to see that shit, we know you have genitals, but we don't want to find out."

Some of these extremely passable CD's were even getting in trouble for things like bad sexual decision making involving these butch guys who were superiors (big ass trouble too) and stuff. Because nobody fucks or fucks up in the army until you let teh gays or something.

The rest of the assessment remains absolutely consistent with what it's probably like, TV crew or no. Freshman year age bracket meets the demands of a life most people can't handle.

 

[WriterDom]

"Spinning like a top?" It's such a stupid phrase, that's all. TIMES CHANGE. SOMEONE was NOT happy about the jokes, but couldn't complain because TIMES HAD NOT CHANGED ENOUGH YET. Why is that "spinning like a top?" It's phrases like that that make you sound like a dumb fuck.

You DO know there's a HUGE difference between Bush's fundamental philosphy and Obama's, right? TIMES CHANGE.

Jesus you can be such a cunt. I was saying the Navy's own story was spinning like a top. Let me try once more.

Big mean guy did films for two years. Under two bosses. Navy claims he was told to stop. But he didn't. Yet, big mean guy gets promoted to ship Captain. Now fired after meanest highlights shown to press. That's the spin. You are still in gayland I guess.

 

[WriterDom]

I dunno, they had a TV program called CARRIER like 6 years ago? More? and a lot of very convincing trannies or something are in the Navy, including some pilots.

I think it was a pretty good look at wtf goes on on an aircraft carrier for morons like me who have absolutely no contact with anyone who's ever been in the military and just want to put daisies in guardsman's guns tra la la.

I had no idea it had gone that inclusive and DADT was that ineffectual, as to be an all male floating city with NO WOMEN ANYWHERE IN IT, but passing MTF's working everything from air control to flying some of the planes. Wow.

Maybe it was like that in 90 or something, but that's been 20 fucking years of women doing all the same shit as men in case no one's counting. There's a fuckton of women on ships for all the same reasons as men and generally the message that they're there to do jobs and not be your personal sexual outlet seems to have penetrated. Large generational shift around that whole thing.

Weirdly it seems that FAIR implementation of DADT was sometimes a good tool for discouraging fraternization among hets - I'm sure there'll be some other way to go about it. DADT could sometimes be translated into a general "we don't want to see that shit, we know you have genitals, but we don't want to find out."

Some of these extremely passable CD's were even getting in trouble for things like bad sexual decision making involving these butch guys who were superiors (big ass trouble too) and stuff. Because nobody fucks or fucks up in the army until you let teh gays or something.

The rest of the assessment remains absolutely consistent with what it's probably like, TV crew or no. Freshman year age bracket meets the demands of a life most people can't handle.

Now another one. Is this one of those times when all women who interact are on their periods?

ALL I meant to say was on MY ship there were no women. This wasn't recent. And that today's sailor has it better. Because of women.

That's all. How you get a long rant out of that I don't know.

 

[JMohegan]

Now another one. Is this one of those times when all women who interact are on their periods?

ALL I meant to say was on MY ship there were no women. This wasn't recent. And that today's sailor has it better. Because of women.

That's all. How you get a long rant out of that I don't know.

WD, I didn't know you were talking about your own ship, either. That's why I responded to you with question marks and a link to the video "Women of the Ronald Reagan."

I really wish Shank were here, to talk about what it was like, for him, to be "locked up in a floating box with 5000 swinging dicks" - god knows how many of which were openly hostile to people with his sexual orientation.

Fast forward to the Enterprise, 2006 & 7. I wonder what it was like to be a gay guy, hiding the reality of your life on pain of expulsion, listening to your wannabe frat boy XO throw "fag" around like it's some hilarious insult, and watching the great triumvirate of homosexuality/bestiality/shit held up as the epitome of hey let's all blow off steam humor.

Possibly this isn't a matter of lacking thick skin so much as a matter of wishing the officers would grow the fuck up.

 

[WriterDom]

I really wish Shank were here, to talk about what it was like, for him, to be "locked up in a floating box with 5000 swinging dicks" - god knows how many of which were openly hostile to people with his sexual orientation.

.

We had one gay guy out of twenty that we knew of. This was before DADT. No one was openly hostile to him or had any interest in getting him in trouble. He was in for life but would never get beyond E-6. Not for gayness but for alcohol troubles. I liked him and never had a problem working for him.

My eye doctor is gay. I have a ex girlfriend who was 14 years a lesbian and went back to it after a year with me. I have a gay friend who is HIV+. Gayness doesn't bother me. It's not catching you know. I wish Shank were here too. He might have a sense of humor about that whole thing.