Time to Tame the Trolls

[neonlyte]

Me, I don't want that much detail. But if only members' votes count, the "policing" will need to be done on far fewer votes, and will be timelier. Also, in general, the pool of voters will be a more reliable pool of voters.

This thread is not here to call for every idea for fixing the voting, even if fixing the voting were possible, which at least half of us agree it is not. The thread was here to garner support for this one idea. Can we call a halt to the general discussion and call the question?

Will anyone agree to support impressive in this one idea? To add their voice to hers in support of it?

cantdog

cantdog, sorry to be thick, are you saying allow anonymous voting but only members votes count toward the score? If so - Yes, I can see that is easier to police.

 

[Op_Cit]

This thread is not here to call for every idea for fixing the voting, even if fixing the voting were possible, which at least half of us agree it is not. The thread was here to garner support for this one idea. Can we call a halt to the general discussion and call the question?

Will anyone agree to support impressive in this one idea? To add their voice to hers in support of it?

I disagree. Unless I missed a change midstream, the original post says:

Per ABS' suggestion, I recommend we use this thread to brainstorm troll prevention tactics.

If you wish to garner support for a particular solution isn't that more what a Poll type thread is for?

My opinion is that if one is going to ask the hosts for a change, then one try to come up with the optimum solution before asking for a change.

 

[impressive]

I didn't post a poll because I wanted to hear others' ideas. Still, after all that's been tossed about here, I still most favor the original -- no anonymous voting.

The voting option would still be there -- so it would be transparent to the reader. However, if someone voted when not logged in, it just wouldn't count.

That way, the Lit police could trace all votes to a particular member.

Sure, some would create alts ... but abuse would be MUCH easier to identify and action could be taken against offenders having a troll voting pattern against a particular author or genre.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'd support that in the sense of "yes, that's a great thing to do."

I would, however, put in a word for disciminating between "what would be great in an ideal world" and "what L&M can reasonably do while continuing to run the rest of the site." I'd like to see the change made, but I don't feel that I'm entitled to tell them how to run the site or how much of their own times and lives to give up to make the change.

I'd like it. I wouldn't demand it.

 

[Couture]

I've gone into this in detail before. My vote is for no anonymous votes.

This would not only fix the problem of vote abuse especially during contests, but there is also a problem with the current voting system where legitmate votes are not accepted on popular stories.

Even if this required some time in setting it up, it would be well worth it because Laurel woudn't have to police anywhere near as much as she does now.

 

[Op_Cit]

I would only support it (visible voting) if you work all the details out...

Being able to see "who voted what" is better, but does not address your fundamental issue: dealing with trolls (and the opposite but less resented behavior).

Giving a story a 3 can have the same end effect as giving it a 1 as far as skewing the score and pusing it out of the coveted "H" category. If you eliminate 1-bombs the average scores of all stories will inflate...

Where I'm going is: think this through.

1. If, say, tomorrow you implement a means of automatically throwing out all scores of 1 what will happen? Trolls will shift to giving out 2's or 3's. (it's nature and evolution.)

2. If you implement visible voting, this does not prevent trolls, but allows you to identify those that 1 bomb. Next? you want to eliminate those 1 bombers, so you implement a "kill" button for the admins to push to eliminate all votes of that individual past/present, and re-calc the scores for stories. But wait, the effect will be that trolls will evolve as in #1: they will adapt and skew stories less severely, but still significantly.

3. OK, so no kill option... But for visible voting to have some use you need a "list scores" option for stories. Who does this serve? Pretty much only the author (and the occasional reader who says WTF did this get an "H"? Still to what end? So the author can send an email to L&M and say "fartknocker_666 gave me a 1! I demand you do something!" Lessee, kill those scores (go back to #1) or, what...?

4. OK, then kill the 2 bombs, (repeat logic). Kill the 3 bombs, repeat logic.

And what is solved? apeasement of authors? But wait, we didn't solve the troll problem.

What about me as consumer? What I want is a way to more quickly find good stories so as to not waste my time reading crap, squicks, or the not so erotic when I want to get off. How does visible voting help me the reader (which, like it or not readers are the majority of the patrons of this site.)

Apart from my suggestion from a prior reply, I can find no useful solution. (Other than Shang's mention of "favorites" pages--these are only less useful because they require more significant effort to maintain.)

What L&M have gotten right are providing a quick and easy way of sending feedback and a quick way of voting (because without quick and easy voting, it won't happen enough for any utility.)

Anyway, I'm rambling and taking up too much space. What I'm trying to say is I do not support asking for any changes that do not solve the underlying problem. That would be a waste of effort and good will.

What I do support is the free market. I will patronize sites (as reader & writer) that are most useful to me. If I find one tomorrow that solves these problems, I'll spend my time and efforts there and not here. Sooner or later the issues will get worked out.

 

[impressive]

We're not talking about VISIBLE voting -- at all.

No one would SEE anyone's vote. It's just when the voter is not a registered member & signed in, his/her vote would not count toward the score. That's all.

 

[Awful Arthur]

We're not talking about VISIBLE voting -- at all.

No one would SEE anyone's vote. It's just when the voter is not a registered member & signed in, his/her vote would not count toward the score. That's all.

Imp, I don't see what difference being logged in makes. Lit has the IP address of the anonymous voter and I assume the IP Address is what is used to purge multiple votes, etc. Having a name attached to an IP Address means nothing.

Anyone can have as many IDs as they wish which, in effect, is the same as having Anonymous IDs.

Plus, some of the troll votes are coming from right here on the boards. Everyone know that. I can assure you that it has happened.

I can understand Lit perhaps changing the scoring system if it makes life a little easier for them, hence my suggestion of having a true average score be given an H. But I don't believe Lit will nor should change just for the sake of change.

AA

 

[cantdog]

cantdog, sorry to be thick, are you saying allow anonymous voting but only members votes count toward the score? If so - Yes, I can see that is easier to police.

Well, yes. That's exactly what I do mean. Imp defines it more exactly-- "logged in"-- but essentially, that's what I understood her proposition to be. I think it has only the two effects. It limits the total "real" vote, making policing quicker and easier (I assume easier, at least. Certainly it would have to be quicker, though.) And secondly, the pool of members would contain, reliably enough to go on with, more of the sort of voter we, as writers, would like to see polled.

Arthur points out, rightly, that a whole lot of the problem voting comes from the writers themselves. Who else has a lot to gain out of bombing someone off the top of the listings?

But I believe, even though it obviously doesn't fix everything, it makes a positive change, and I would like to have people rally to it. Support it, that is. We can work out a modality for that support but I want to call the question.

 

[impressive]

Imp, I don't see what difference being logged in makes. Lit has the IP address of the anonymous voter and I assume the IP Address is what is used to purge multiple votes, etc. Having a name attached to an IP Address means nothing.

Anyone can have as many IDs as they wish which, in effect, is the same as having Anonymous IDs.

Plus, some of the troll votes are coming from right here on the boards. Everyone know that. I can assure you that it has happened.

I can understand Lit perhaps changing the scoring system if it makes life a little easier for them, hence my suggestion of having a true average score be given an H. But I don't believe Lit will nor should change just for the sake of change.

AA

Hi, hun. Nice to see you!

I think it would make things less cumbersome for Lit to police (as cantdog explains so well). In addition, the trolls would be at risk of having their account closed (and stories/poems removed, even) for persistent trolling. Sure, as I've said, alts will be created -- but fewer and fewer will persist in creating new accounts over and over again.

It's not foolproof, but it's better than what we've got -- and I think it'd be easy to implement.

 

[cantdog]

As i understood it, part of the problem was the slowness with which the site could respond. On that basis, it may be good.

Also, as imp said 'way back at the beginning, the membership numbers impact Lit's ability to charge for advertising, and if you need to be one to really vote, it may go to help that, too.

Be one, a member, that is. My antecedents.

 

[davidwatts]

Has the suggestion of not having the voting scores on any stories visible to anyone for a period of time ever come up?

If it's for a month, or for the duration of a contest, or whatever. Don't let anyone know, or perhaps just only let the author know about his/her own score for that time period.

Perhaps there are instances of trolling done by people hanging out here, as was suggested in an earlier post, but if so they didn't do a very good job. My Valentine story was out there for all to see and attack, and the fact that it was highly ranked was even mentioned in another post here (something I wasn't really aware of at the time believe it or not) yet no harm came of it.

I think there's a lot more integrity to be found around here than some might think, and I believe that the vast majority of abuse comes from the real world.

 

[TxRad]

When everyone has to be registered to vote and each ISP number is limited to one ID then you will make progress on this.... Until then it just keeps on circleing....I've seen it at other sites and how they fixed the problem...

Sure you will have a drop in votes and total people at first but the it will pick back up.. people flock to sites that give them saftey and amusement....

 

[cantdog]

David, I have to believe Arthur on that point. Voting lowballs to affect the toplists is pretty pointless for someone from nowhere with no axe to grind.

TxRad, what did those other sites do? Did they make some grave mistakes from which we can learn, here? Please be more specific. I can see your point about people wishing not to register at a porn site of any kind, for safety's sake. Please say more.

 

[davidwatts]

David, I have to believe Arthur on that point. Voting lowballs to affect the toplists is pretty pointless for someone from nowhere with no axe to grind.

TxRad, what did those other sites do? Did they make some grave mistakes from which we can learn, here? Please be more specific. I can see your point about people wishing not to register at a porn site of any kind, for safety's sake. Please say more.

Get rid of the top lists then. They are no certain indicator of quality writing, and if they are causing that much concern, then dump them. Of course, if nobody knew the score of a story until after voting that might help too.

 

[cantdog]

So that contests, if I understand you, david, would be lists of stories. No ratings, just lists? People would have to vote on the basis of just reading them?

That's fairly radically different from what we do now, in some cases. It would be easy to implement for Nude Day, Valentine's Day, and such things, but I think the monthly and yearly winners sort of contest would have to be scrapped. That relies on the toplist ratings entirely.

For me, no biggie. I would find the themed contests entirely adequate, and I wouldn't miss the monthlies by category. BUT! What about the poets? There are some themed poetry things, I think, but really, poems are not as comparable. The voting is all they have, poor tool though it is. And consequently, on the poetry side, the backstabbing and bombing is fiercer, it seems to me. I hear echoes of it. Poetry generally carries lower vote scoring, on the site.

It's a complex mess, and the little members-only idea really won't help the worst of it, in poetry. There are features of the problem it doesn't touch, even in the stories. But still, I can't see that it hurts anything, and it should still have the limited good effects we've listed. It would be particularly nice if it made the vote-policing faster and more responsive.

I admit I've little or no experience with other sites. Before I came to lit, I distributed my stories and art on kazaa and on the usenet before that. I would love to hear about a system somewhere that works a little better than this one.

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Get rid of the top lists then. They are no certain indicator of quality writing, and if they are causing that much concern, then dump them. Of course, if nobody knew the score of a story until after voting that might help too.

Maybe just let people vote and release the scores once a month or so?
One reason I'm hesitant to dismiss the Top Lists is that it is a legitimate way (or should be) for people to log in and go check out what is supposed to be the better examples of each particular category. I'm reluctant to lose that, but would be interested in entertaining alternative ideas if someone has them.

 

[cantdog]

I getcha. Thanks Evil A. I've been thick. Publish the top lists and the winners all at once. People would have less opportunity to fine tune a really effective lowballing scheme if they had no ongoing feedback.

I like it. And talk about saving a lot of work for the site! Jammin.

 

[TxRad]

To solve the problems at other sites they made everyone register and only one ID per ISP was allowed... This got rid of most of the trolls right off the bat by making them known and by not allowing multiple ID's.. It also allows easy policing of malicious bombing from the Members... It also allows policing of the boards in general... bad bullshit could be traced to it's source and contained by either banning or blocking of that isp....

this place is about fun and writing... it belongs to the people who support it.. Tolerating the BS of a few isn't the way to go..

Ok so some folks don't want a porn site on their comp... well, sorry... it would not be hard to hide this site,,,, yes some people would leave,, good and bad... but the overall good will far outweight the bad.... and bring people back..

 

[BlackShanglan]

Get rid of the top lists then. They are no certain indicator of quality writing, and if they are causing that much concern, then dump them. Of course, if nobody knew the score of a story until after voting that might help too.

I think that from a reader's perspective, that woud remove all value in voting. Yes, it's nice as a writer to know where one ranks, but the readers might well like having the top lists to guide their reading. If they can't see any scores, they don't have any help in aiming for the better stuff. Granted, "more popular" isn't always "better," but it's some help.

I'd also put in a good word for doing a formal portal for editor's choice stories. Maybe even a list where you can find just stories that have made it to someone's favorites page?

Hey - I rather like that idea.

Shanglan

 

[Belegon]

One of the reasons I like the idea of having two scores, one by all and one by members, is that I do have an interest in what that other audience thinks. I also remember that I was a reader and a voter long before I was a member...

 

[Op_Cit]

First, on the issue of hiding scores for a time period:

Top lists, and "hot" icons are the primary reason for scores. It is what most readers use to wade through the volume of stories to find what's "best" to read. Hiding a score for a time interval will only limit the utility of the lists and limit viewership of stories.

Second, on the issue of trying to pin down the voters:

1. You can't nail people down by IP address. A huge number of people still use dial up and IP is assigned each time you connect. (Some sites will limit more than one vote from the same IP within a certain time frame --like 30 minutes, but that's the only thing they can do).

2. Limiting by registration doesn't work. I have about a dozen different email addresses I use for various legit (anon and non-anon) purposes. I have more than one user registration on Lit and even post stories under different names. If I was the kind to vote bomb or score inflate, it wouldn't be a significant effort. I'm a lazy person. A motivated malicious person would not be slowed much at all.

Poker sites have the biggest issue with trying to limit the same individual from playing multiple seats at the same virtual table, and still they can't stop a motivated person. And they have the advantage of requiring credit card type personal info to tie someone to an account.

Trying to make this site's memberships non-anonymous to the administrators (like some adult check thing) will severly limit their user base and therefor revenue.

And, even if you could magically know what votes were mine no matter what account or manner I used to vote, what's to prevent me from giving a story a 3, and lowering it's score from a 4.5 to a 4.2? (Depending on how many votes you have.) That's enough to keep a story from an "H" or bump it out of the running for a contest based on scores.

 

[English Lady]

I personally really don't like this idea of "the reader can vote but it just won't count." isn't that just deception?

Reader is here, reading her favourite authors work and gives it a 5. Reader isn't a registered member, she doesn't have time for the boards and doesn't write herself. She just likes the stories. Why shouldn't her vote count?

"trolls" already create numerous accounts, I am sure they still will and might even do so even more in future if this idea were to be implimented.

Also who's to say someon whovotes nothing but 1,2 and 3's is a troll? they might just have reeeeeaaalllly high standards. Would their low voting pattern get them kicked off for being a troll?

I havesaid once, twice and again if the scoring means so little to you and you hunger for the feedback, switch off voting.

I do not think Laurel and Manu can do much more than they are already doing. I cannot imagine the headache a site this size causes for'em. Theyhave to check every story before it's submitted, they regularly sweep for trolls, they do even more at competition times. they have the boards to regulate and up keep, they have email to sort through, advertisers to deal with and a whole host of other stuff no doubt.

And I honestly think no matter what you do "trolls" will persist.

However we may find we don't have as many trolls as we like to think we do and maybe we'd have to swallow and accept that when a person votes a "1"it's not always something personal.

 

[impressive]

I personally really don't like this idea of "the reader can vote but it just won't count." isn't that just deception?

Perhaps you'd like to open up the annual reader's choice polls to "Anonymous" too, then?

Otherwise, it's fine and dandy for non-registered voters to put a story/poem up for an award ... but it's not okay for non-registered voters to participate in the ultimate showdown? Sounds unfair to me (at best) -- hypocritical (at worst).

I do not believe for one second that discarding the votes of those who cannot or will not log in will impact readership AT ALL. Those who are just here for a wank, will still come (*snicker*) for their wank. The increase in the number of registered users will only HELP Lit and make trolls easier to police.

Bel's idea of two scores -- with and without -- is interesting, and I could support it IF the "without" score is what's used for the "official" score for contests and Top Lists. I think it creates more work for Lit, though, which is not my objective.

Shang's idea of a Favorites Portal is already in development ... but it's limited to 250 authors, 100 stories, and 50 poems. That's a tiny fraction of the whole. Perhaps it would be interesting to separate the stories and poems by category for a "Favorites in Category Portal."

Multi-categorical tags are something we've talked about before, but that's also outside the scope of a troll discussion.

Anyway, I'm writing to Laurel today about all of this ... and pointing her to this thread. Thank you to everyone who's weighed in.

~ Imp

 

[impressive]

I havesaid once, twice and again if the scoring means so little to you and you hunger for the feedback, switch off voting.

Okay -- so then the only people eligible for contests and Top Lists will be those who don't care about their scores? Yeah, that makes sense.