"To keep the review thread clean..."

[hmmnmm]

son-of-a-bitch.
You're right, WP.
'Pleasantly' was not the best choice in that place. Really, in these early morning moments, I can't think of a less weak choice. It impedes. In a major way. Also, a look at the thing now, 'draws' isn't it, either. Oh well. Maybe if the poetry submission process wasn't so easy. Because it's easy: you have that box and you drop your specimen in it, and... it's done.


Hey!
Idea!

Monday Morning Poetic Quarterback!

 

[twelveoone]

.
.




foehn2 brings us somber imagery in Old Man at a Funeral. The question is, is it the live one paying his respects or the one laying in state? Give it a read and see what you think.

OK rhymesters, if you must do it, here is how it is done, and two different well thought out comments , and that is how it can be done. Only Three comments?
I'll leave a lame ass comment and make it Four, do I hear Five, SIX?

 

[normal jean]

in regards to the last couple of pieces I posted, I just want to send a very heartfelt thanks to everyone who read them



OH!!! and thank you, TT2U, for mentioning my Elements of being, placement.

And especially, to 1201 and Angeline who took the time to point out some problems. Ange, I LOVE the suggestions you left on the phrase about the mariner/sunken, etc, in the Elements of being piece. That was a series at one time and some of them have been lost...sigh

its been hard for me, havent written in SO long, and it is harder to get back into it than I thought, but some of ya'll have been such wonderful inspirations.

thank you for that

 

[WomanPariah]

distilled to its essence

 

[Angeline]

in regards to the last couple of pieces I posted, I just want to send a very heartfelt thanks to everyone who read them



OH!!! and thank you, TT2U, for mentioning my Elements of being, placement.

And especially, to 1201 and Angeline who took the time to point out some problems. Ange, I LOVE the suggestions you left on the phrase about the mariner/sunken, etc, in the Elements of being piece. That was a series at one time and some of them have been lost...sigh

its been hard for me, havent written in SO long, and it is harder to get back into it than I thought, but some of ya'll have been such wonderful inspirations.

thank you for that

Same for me sweet sis, I know the feeling all too well. I haven't felt like writing poetry in a long time. I think the stress of the divorce and burn out (I was writing multiple poems per day for years, like you) got me to a point where I just felt empty of poetry. Like I had said everything I could say. I've been very inspired though by Jamison's example of coming back and really rocking those poems, and now you. And I've been writing stories. Oddly the focus on prose is making me feel poetic again. I don't know that I'll ever get back to that manic poet-machine state I was in a few years back, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe my poetry will have matured for spending the words more slowly.

Anyway it's great to read a J poem again. I've always loved your dreamy, earthy style.

 

[hmmnmm]

OK, it's Monday morning, so this is safe to say now, right h? I loooove that piece, and now I really wish I hadn't been a Friday quarterback (eighth back?) -- you're being way too hard on it, it's a terrific poem.

You're right about the submission thing though. "I think this one must be done, it's been gathering dust for a whole week now," I think to mysef sometimes.

I read somewhere that a "real poet" wouldn't let any poem see the light of day for six months -- food for thought, especially for me.

There's a bunch of mine that need re-working, but then I feel like a bit of a buzz kill youknowwhat if I submit an "EDIT" version, since I believe the comments vanish if you do that. I really dislike terminating comments, it seems disrespectful.

To reiterate, h: Leave your poem alone, let that prawn breathe awhile, sir.

peace,

Roni

Interesting you say this, because I contemplated posting a similar vein of thought.
It connects with a question I had about why some of them just come out without much effort, and these being ones you don't think too much of at first - but they work. As opposed to those you spend days or weeks on, and you finally think it is what it should be, but it still doesn't quite hold up.

I think I know why.

Those occasional ones that just come out, were already there. They may have gone through a long process of fertilization and pruning and just being allowed to germinate to the point that you've forgotten it.

Maybe like picking berries. When they are ready and ripe, they just roll off the stem, into your hand, or your pail. If you find yourself tugging them, that indicates they are not quite ready - they may look ready, and you may have had a taste or two of the ready ripe ones, or a few in your pail, so you just begin grabbing all the berries you see, not noticing that they are not rolling off the stems.

But berry-picking gets addictive. Many many times I determine to let the berry bushes have a few days off, but I remember how sweet was the last one, and I go and try to find at least one or two that might be close to ripe. I do put them in the pail, but they didn't really roll off the stem. Then you notice a few stupid typos mixed with the berries in the pail.

I have two more berries pending, they should drop in the pail tomorrow, and I will really try and give the bushes a rest.

Also, me and mrs hmmnmm are about to move to a better house. We've been in this dump for too long and we're very excited about the impending step up into something more humane. And it should give the berry bushes ample time to recover from all the lust-driven tugs they've been subjected to these last couple weeks.

 

[normal jean]

OK, it's Monday morning, so this is safe to say now, right h? I loooove that piece, and now I really wish I hadn't been a Friday quarterback (eighth back?) -- you're being way too hard on it, it's a terrific poem.

You're right about the submission thing though. "I think this one must be done, it's been gathering dust for a whole week now," I think to mysef sometimes.

I read somewhere that a "real poet" wouldn't let any poem see the light of day for six months -- food for thought, especially for me.

There's a bunch of mine that need re-working, but then I feel like a bit of a buzz kill youknowwhat if I submit an "EDIT" version, since I believe the comments vanish if you do that. I really dislike terminating comments, it seems disrespectful.

To reiterate, h: Leave your poem alone, let that prawn breathe awhile, sir.

peace,

Roni

Hey! I dont know if "things" have changed, but in the past, submitting an edit did NOT cause the comments to go away. deleting the entire poem, of course,yes. you could PM Laurel and ask her.....shes sweet


BTW, I have been enjoying your poetry greatly!! KUTGW!!!!!




NJ



just to add:::: disregard that person that said a poem must stew.that is a crock. sometimes you come up with brilliance and what is the point of pushing it aside for months and months???? I submit just to GET pointers. THere are some really smart folks here



but as for little green E's, I got chewed on by someone no longer here, because I admitted I wrote a poem in 10 minutes and it got an E so, ya never know.

 

[normal jean]

Same for me sweet sis, I know the feeling all too well. I haven't felt like writing poetry in a long time. I think the stress of the divorce and burn out (I was writing multiple poems per day for years, like you) got me to a point where I just felt empty of poetry. Like I had said everything I could say. I've been very inspired though by Jamison's example of coming back and really rocking those poems, and now you. And I've been writing stories. Oddly the focus on prose is making me feel poetic again. I don't know that I'll ever get back to that manic poet-machine state I was in a few years back, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe my poetry will have matured for spending the words more slowly.

Anyway it's great to read a J poem again. I've always loved your dreamy, earthy style.

I think you hit the snail on the head

thank you for your love and support sis. I love you sweetie

 

[hmmnmm]

Okay, make that 3.
No more for at least a week.

But I would like to say something that's been on my mind for a few days, but haven't known where to say it.

Too many of the superior poets and story writers seem to take a sadistic pleasure in shoving that superior ability so that the weaker and less sure stumble or get knocked off their path. Oh they say they are being impartial and just trying to help, but a sensitive sort can detect the impersonal blade behind the so-called objective veneer.

I wish they would take a lesson from zoot in the story department and angeline here (and some of the other poets - not too many of the other story persons)

Ordinarily I tend to laugh off or ignore reviewers/critics, at the politest.
But whenever zoot and angeline (and some other poets) have pointed out weak or questionable places of anything I've brought to them or public literary table, they were able to do so in a way that I felt encouraged to look at it again, and to improve the places they noted. These are honest to goodness teachers who inspire respect and affection, and who also have the works to back up their authority. If more could learn from the example they set, the overall vitriol that tends to infect too many areas of this site, might all but evaporate and leave an environment where the learning and the doing are activities to enjoy rather than to fear.

Just wanted to say that.

 

[Guest]

.............

 

[Angeline]

Okay, make that 3.
No more for at least a week.

But I would like to say something that's been on my mind for a few days, but haven't known where to say it.

Too many of the superior poets and story writers seem to take a sadistic pleasure in shoving that superior ability so that the weaker and less sure stumble or get knocked off their path. Oh they say they are being impartial and just trying to help, but a sensitive sort can detect the impersonal blade behind the so-called objective veneer.

I wish they would take a lesson from zoot in the story department and angeline here (and some of the other poets - not too many of the other story persons)

Ordinarily I tend to laugh off or ignore reviewers/critics, at the politest.
But whenever zoot and angeline (and some other poets) have pointed out weak or questionable places of anything I've brought to them or public literary table, they were able to do so in a way that I felt encouraged to look at it again, and to improve the places they noted. These are honest to goodness teachers who inspire respect and affection, and who also have the works to back up their authority. If more could learn from the example they set, the overall vitriol that tends to infect too many areas of this site, might all but evaporate and leave an environment where the learning and the doing are activities to enjoy rather than to fear.

Just wanted to say that.

You are very kind, and I appreciate your taking the time to say it. It means a lot to me. There have been poets here, over the years, who have the attitude that newbies have to suffer some trial of fire and that feedback isn't serious or sincere unless it slaps you around a bit.

I have never believed in that and I never will.

Everyone deserves respect as a human being and to be treated with the same kindness one would want for him or herself. That doesn't mean that one has to lie or kiss up or avoid talking about what doesn't seem to be working. We can be honest without being meanspirited and, if we look hard enough, we can always find at least one positive thing to say to balance with the "fix this" feedback.

Many people have a hard time making their poems public; they take things personally. They shouldn't, true, but they do. And I don't want to scare anyone away. I want them to feel welcome to be here. And btw I can think of other poets, too, who seem to share this attitude about feedback. Wicked Eve, Champagne, Annaswirls, normal jean, Jamison, for example, are all very good at giving honest feedback without combining it with a swift kick.

And I am def with you on the good Doctor Mabeuse. He has been helping me with my stories (he's my prose mentor!), and you couldn't find a more honest and knowledgeable reviewer who is also really kindhearted. Yes, Zoot, I'm blowing your cover. You're sweet. There! I said it.

I edited my review, if it was taken taken to be snotty and superior. I am far, far from that. Hopefully most realize that by now with me under this ID and my other alt.

You? Snotty? Acting like you think you're superior? No way, nohow. See my comment above. How anyone could see your feedback as other than honest, but compassionate is beyond me.

 

[Guest]

.........

 

[hmmnmm]

urr:

Though, I'm literally snotty. I have a cold, again. My snotty toddler passes them onto me.

literal snot is nothing to sneeze at.

now, some may suggest stuffy instead of snotty, but I think snotty works perfect in this context. had you sad literarily snotty, then you'd might think to replace the snotty with stuffy, though you don't strike me as literarily stuffy or snotty.

And since me and the missus are near to departure, and this thing that some might call a house, is all a-buzz with tingling tizzies... it's really hard to get into much of anything.


So:
the reason for the post about the review talents of angeline (and all others who apply) is connected to the reason for the third submission that now pends. I know there is a danger of overdoing anything, especially exhibiting too much poetry to too many eyes, and for too many days.

But,
it just so happened that, yesterday, a warrior charged in from nowhere, and, backed by a mighty calvary of trumpet-blaring privates and corporals, exerted great pains to tell me how one of my prose attempts lacked any shred of literary worth.

Now,
had the merciful warrior put in his/her gilt document some sort of token that hinted at a message worth paying much attention to, I may have taken their review a little more serously, and may even set upon a rewrite/edit expedition. However, the merciful warrior included no such token and so I all but discounted the empty document - prettily gilt the edges were.

Then,
today comes along Angeline, who points out a few specific potential trouble spots that tended to impede the enjoyment/flow/pace/etc as the words went from screen/page to her eyes, mind, heart, soul, and so on. In this case, instead of turning my head or rolling my eyes, I'm looking at where she points, and I say, "wow, you're right! Thank you for pointing that out." and at least one case has already been edited, and I think it is better. You could call it a contrast in tones, or something.

Re: the warrior of literary righteousness, who attempted to slay my unworthy prose piece,
I toyed with a correspondingly pretty but somewhat empty reply to the literary soldier and had it as far as the PC box. But at the last second, I thought: why not instead reply with a prettily gilt poem? Of course another option was to ignore the literary soldier but the poem was more fun. So that's where the pending 3rd poem comes from, which led to the posting of the different styles of review, how they can, in the right hands, actually lead to a genuinely better society.

Now, mrs. hmmnmm has arisen, so I must go and do something.

 

[Tzara]

<snip>
But I would like to say something that's been on my mind for a few days, but haven't known where to say it.

Too many of the superior poets and story writers seem to take a sadistic pleasure in shoving that superior ability so that the weaker and less sure stumble or get knocked off their path. Oh they say they are being impartial and just trying to help, but a sensitive sort can detect the impersonal blade behind the so-called objective veneer.

I wish they would take a lesson from zoot in the story department and angeline here (and some of the other poets - not too many of the other story persons)

Ordinarily I tend to laugh off or ignore reviewers/critics, at the politest.
But whenever zoot and angeline (and some other poets) have pointed out weak or questionable places of anything I've brought to them or public literary table, they were able to do so in a way that I felt encouraged to look at it again, and to improve the places they noted. These are honest to goodness teachers who inspire respect and affection, and who also have the works to back up their authority. If more could learn from the example they set, the overall vitriol that tends to infect too many areas of this site, might all but evaporate and leave an environment where the learning and the doing are activities to enjoy rather than to fear.

Just wanted to say that.

My impression is that most people, at least in the PF&D, go out of their way to avoid offending writers with their comments, qualifying and hedging anything they say to the point where the comment becomes almost squishy in its neutered message. One of the reasons I basically don't comment anymore is that I got tired of worrying about whether I was accidentally going to offend someone or not. After all, I'm no authority and anything I would say would merely reflect my opinion, with the possible exception of noting misspellings and such.

But the fact that so many people react so sensitively to comments just makes me want to avoid the whole thing.

The odd thing is that it's my opinion that if someone asks for comments (either explicitly by posting a poem to New Poems with the comments turned on or implcitly by posting to a thread here in the PF&D) they should accept whatever response they get. They might find certain comments unhelpful or even distressing, but they've asked for public comment, and the public may not be very complimentary.

Anyway, between the people who complain about the tone of critical comments and the people who complain that simple "I liked this" comments are stupid and useless, I guess I've decided to camp in the demilitarized zone of silence.

Except, I guess, for comments like this one.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Too many of the superior poets and story writers seem to take a sadistic pleasure in shoving that superior ability so that the weaker and less sure stumble or get knocked off their path. Oh they say they are being impartial and just trying to help, but a sensitive sort can detect the impersonal blade behind the so-called objective veneer.
.

Well said, and thank you. I've been watching this for a while and getting increasingly annoyed at the verbal abuse lately.

It is absolutely possible to give even the toughest and most incisive critique without being unnecessarily cruel. Not that you'd be able to tell that to the last two or three newbies who have been instantly alienated here lately.

I'm not sure what the goal is there, unless it is to make sure that no one ever tries anything new, and no new poets join us in this forum.

there is room for everyone here, and it has really annoyed me lately that new poets who are brave enough to ask for critique have been completely shredded and sent away with the basic message that they shouldn't have even bothered to put words together at all. Yes they're inexperienced, but so were we all at one point. Had I been met, as a young poet, with the sort of destructive, insulting bullshit that has been loaded onto a few of the newbies here lately, I'd probably have given up showing my work to anyone.

Oh, I'd have kept writing. But I wouldn't have bothered to ask for anyone's opinion, since it's obviously pointless to do so unless one enjoys vicious verbal abuse, and I wouldn't have been as good a writer as a result. So if that's what we want, then by all means, let's continue to tear new people to shreds as soon as they get brave enough to post their first piece. Let's continue to condemn anyone who just says something complimentary and general, let's continue to put so much judgment on people's attempts to comment in their own way that perfectly intelligent folks like Tristesse and Tzara will stop trying to give feedback. Eventually, we'll get what we deserve: an empty board, no new poets or poetry, and a hidebound little cadre of three people bickering meaninglessly forever.

I don't care how harsh the critique needs to be; there is ALWAYS a diplomatic way to offer it, one that leaves out the abuse. Anything else calls the validity of the critique into question anyway, since it's more obviously about "look how fabulously smart I am" than about any attempt to actually teach a new poet some new ideas.

Bottom line: Mean people suck.

bj

 

[bogusbrig]

One of the reasons I basically don't comment anymore is that I got tired of worrying about whether I was accidentally going to offend someone or not. After all, I'm no authority and anything I would say would merely reflect my opinion, with the possible exception of noting misspellings and such.

Opinions are good! No matter how constructively negative they may be. When I used to post poems, I was really grateful for comments that I thought were a true reflection of someones opinion even if they thought I wrote trash.

As for your opinions, you are obviously well read and anyone wanting to flog a book, you would be on their mailing list so they should be interested in your opnions if they are serious about their writing.

The expert is the one who puts his hand in his pocket. (a bit of my father's wisdom)

 

[Angeline]

My impression is that most people, at least in the PF&D, go out of their way to avoid offending writers with their comments, qualifying and hedging anything they say to the point where the comment becomes almost squishy in its neutered message. One of the reasons I basically don't comment anymore is that I got tired of worrying about whether I was accidentally going to offend someone or not. After all, I'm no authority and anything I would say would merely reflect my opinion, with the possible exception of noting misspellings and such.

But the fact that so many people react so sensitively to comments just makes me want to avoid the whole thing.

The odd thing is that it's my opinion that if someone asks for comments (either explicitly by posting a poem to New Poems with the comments turned on or implcitly by posting to a thread here in the PF&D) they should accept whatever response they get. They might find certain comments unhelpful or even distressing, but they've asked for public comment, and the public may not be very complimentary.

Anyway, between the people who complain about the tone of critical comments and the people who complain that simple "I liked this" comments are stupid and useless, I guess I've decided to camp in the demilitarized zone of silence.

Except, I guess, for comments like this one.

Well, the other side of the coin (which I believe in equally fervently) is that no matter what the tone of a comment is, the best thing to do is read it, decide whether you find any of it helpful and revise accordingly if you do. Some of the best thing I've learned about my writing have come from Senna Jawa, who is not a guy to put on the kid gloves. And I trust his knowledge, so if he tells me what I've written has no redeeming value, I'm going to take a long hard look at my poem and try to understand why he thinks that.

If someone slams your poem and you get upset and refuse to consider that they might actually have a point, you're in a lose-lose situation.

But I also understand that I've been here a long time and have become very thick-skinned about others' opinions of my writing. I've gotten very good at separating the wheat from the chaff. But new people are not in that situation. Most of them are worried and tense about what feedback they might receive. Hence, I try to be nice. And if there's absolutely nothing good I can say, I follow my mother's advice and don't say anything.

If there were one thing I could convey about this to newbies it would be "it's all subjective; don't take it personally." But I can't, so I'm stuck with nice.

 

[hmmnmm]

anyone can criticize or pass out opinions on anyone else's anything, whether it is their poetry or the way they hold a broom handle when they sweep.

But a teacher - a real teacher - can nudge you towards answers of a few whys. You're trying to achieve this, but it keeps falling short. You want to say this but it isn't getting through. Why?
Because the objective is not to get a star or a cookie from the teacher or applause from the faculty and the community. The objective is relation, connection, from A to B, me to you, or somebody, a general somebody or a specific somebody - at the least. If relation is created, the rest is pretty trivial, whether one has written a real poem or a poetically incorrect prose poem, or taken a picture of a butterfly. If there is no connection or relation, maybe it is because of a blind spot that a teacher's patience can give light, you can understand, see a way to go, and relation is created, connection accomplished, or at least these objectives may appear more possible, which creates its own excitement.

anyone can criticize or dole out their opinions on anyone else's anything, but if the opinions are not motivated by the wish to advance relation or connection, they should simply be received with a thanks and then disregarded.

 

[Angeline]

anyone can criticize or pass out opinions on anyone else's anything, whether it is their poetry or the way they hold a broom handle when they sweep.

But a teacher - a real teacher - can nudge you towards answers of a few whys. You're trying to achieve this, but it keeps falling short. You want to say this but it isn't getting through. Why?
Because the objective is not to get a star or a cookie from the teacher or applause from the faculty and the community. The objective is relation, connection, from A to B, me to you, or somebody, a general somebody or a specific somebody - at the least. If relation is created, the rest is pretty trivial, whether one has written a real poem or a poetically incorrect prose poem, or taken a picture of a butterfly. If there is no connection or relation, maybe it is because of a blind spot that a teacher's patience can give light, you can understand, see a way to go, and relation is created, connection accomplished, or at least these objectives may appear more possible, which creates its own excitement.

anyone can criticize or dole out their opinions on anyone else's anything, but if the opinions are not motivated by the wish to advance relation or connection, they should simply be received with a thanks and then disregarded.

Dear Tihmmmm, I know just what you mean. When I was teaching (and this was true especially when I was teaching 7th grade--so youngins), the absolutely best moment was when I'd watch one of my students get that dawning expression on the face that says "I understand." When you're having a bad day--the kids are out of control, you're tired, you have hours of homework checking or paper reading ahead of you that night--that look makes up for all of it. I don't teach anymore, but I'll never forget that.

And I know there are lots of other teachers here, and I bet they'd say the same.

 

[Tzara]

Opinions are good! No matter how constructively negative they may be. When I used to post poems, I was really grateful for comments that I thought were a true reflection of someones opinion even if they thought I wrote trash.

Of course they are. And you, of course, know that I know that you would not freak whatever kind of comment I might make on one of your poems (which, shamefacedly, I admit I haven't been doing, lately). I might, I suppose, if I was especially cranky, peeve you a bit, but I doubt I could really upset you. I mean, like, we've both seen Bob Feller's signature in the Rotterdam Walk of Fame! That's so cool that it has got to be some kind of serious poetic bond, eh?

What I is talking about is poets I don't know, or only marginally know. (Keeping in mind the cushy soft meaning of "know" as regards the Internet.) Why should I risk pissing off someone I've never met and have had no interaction with to comment on their poem? The likelihood that I will say something helpful is, probably, low. The likelihood that I might upset them, assuming I make anything like a "critical" comment is high.

The hedonics just don't work out here.

As for your opinions, you are obviously well read and anyone wanting to flog a book, you would be on their mailing list so they should be interested in your opnions if they are serious about their writing.

The expert is the one who puts his hand in his pocket. (a bit of my father's wisdom)

Well-read, hmmm? I'm like at a cruddy 17% of 1,001 Books You Must Read Before You Die. (Note: There are no poetry books on this list. In fact, it's essentially all fiction. So I guess you can die comfortably without reading a line of poetry. On this list, anyway.)

 

[Tzara]

Well, the other side of the coin (which I believe in equally fervently) is that no matter what the tone of a comment is, the best thing to do is read it, decide whether you find any of it helpful and revise accordingly if you do. Some of the best thing I've learned about my writing have come from Senna Jawa, who is not a guy to put on the kid gloves. And I trust his knowledge, so if he tells me what I've written has no redeeming value, I'm going to take a long hard look at my poem and try to understand why he thinks that.

If someone slams your poem and you get upset and refuse to consider that they might actually have a point, you're in a lose-lose situation.

Well, we is exactly in agreement here. You get a comment, you read it, you think about it. Some help, some don't. I would say all of them that aren't just "this is great" or "this sucks and you are evil" help, even if you disagree with them. They give you some perspective.

But I also understand that I've been here a long time and have become very thick-skinned about others' opinions of my writing. I've gotten very good at separating the wheat from the chaff. But new people are not in that situation. Most of them are worried and tense about what feedback they might receive. Hence, I try to be nice. And if there's absolutely nothing good I can say, I follow my mother's advice and don't say anything.

A big part of writing--at least sharing your writing--is about confidence. Someone who is very new or very unsure of him or herself needs more than anything some level of confidence to keep them writing and submitting. The bad thing about the "critical" crowd here is that they can mash this kind of person into the ground to the point that they don't write anymore, at least here.

On the other hand, the "I loved your poem" crowd tends to inflate egos on poets whose work, quite frankly, sucks.

One would hope there would be a better way, but I'm not sure there is. We seem to divide into "encourage everyone" and "slash and burn garbage" camps. Neither of these approaches seem to me likely to help most people.

Maybe that's just me.

If there were one thing I could convey about this to newbies it would be "it's all subjective; don't take it personally." But I can't, so I'm stuck with nice.

And I'm stuck with silence, since I'm afraid my "nice" might be misinterpreted.

More than that. That's being dishonest. There are some poems that show up here that I just want to say "I'm sorry, but I see nothing interesting about this and this is why...."

Where I do your Mom's "don't say anything" thing.

 

[Tzara]

anyone can criticize or pass out opinions on anyone else's anything, whether it is their poetry or the way they hold a broom handle when they sweep.

But a teacher - a real teacher - can nudge you towards answers of a few whys. You're trying to achieve this, but it keeps falling short. You want to say this but it isn't getting through. Why?
Because the objective is not to get a star or a cookie from the teacher or applause from the faculty and the community. The objective is relation, connection, from A to B, me to you, or somebody, a general somebody or a specific somebody - at the least. If relation is created, the rest is pretty trivial, whether one has written a real poem or a poetically incorrect prose poem, or taken a picture of a butterfly. If there is no connection or relation, maybe it is because of a blind spot that a teacher's patience can give light, you can understand, see a way to go, and relation is created, connection accomplished, or at least these objectives may appear more possible, which creates its own excitement.

anyone can criticize or dole out their opinions on anyone else's anything, but if the opinions are not motivated by the wish to advance relation or connection, they should simply be received with a thanks and then disregarded.

Uh, why?

What about the case where someone (hey, let's take me, for example) reads something you wrote and doesn't understand it. Or finds it confusing. Or finds a metaphor obscure, or something offensive, or, or, or.

Comments, I think, are reactions from readers. If you get responses from people who are teachers, well and good. You lucked out.

Should you want teachers? Absofuckinglutley! Are you lkely to find one? Well....

Should you pay attention to readers, serious readers? Readers who cared enough to comment (again, I don't mean the "I loved this" or "this sucks" crowd)?

In my opine, yes. Your feedback may differ.

 

[Angeline]

Well, we is exactly in agreement here. You get a comment, you read it, you think about it. Some help, some don't. I would say all of them that aren't just "this is great" or "this sucks and you are evil" help, even if you disagree with them. They give you some perspective.
A big part of writing--at least sharing your writing--is about confidence. Someone who is very new or very unsure of him or herself needs more than anything some level of confidence to keep them writing and submitting. The bad thing about the "critical" crowd here is that they can mash this kind of person into the ground to the point that they don't write anymore, at least here.

On the other hand, the "I loved your poem" crowd tends to inflate egos on poets whose work, quite frankly, sucks.

One would hope there would be a better way, but I'm not sure there is. We seem to divide into "encourage everyone" and "slash and burn garbage" camps. Neither of these approaches seem to me likely to help most people.

Maybe that's just me.

And I'm stuck with silence, since I'm afraid my "nice" might be misinterpreted.

More than that. That's being dishonest. There are some poems that show up here that I just want to say "I'm sorry, but I see nothing interesting about this and this is why...."

Where I do your Mom's "don't say anything" thing.

Eh, you can think this, I can think that. I'm just happy you're around again.

 

[tungtied2u]

For what it's worth...
I feel if you're going to comment, you can be honest and constructive even when you don't particularly care for something. Something moved you to comment...that in itself can be a positive thing in that it stirred you enough to move into action.
I don't see a need to become personally antagonistic anytime..and that does happen sometimes here, almost condescending. That really irks me. Better to just ignore in that case.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know that much about the intellectual aspects of poetry- forms, meter, rhyme,etc.- but I do know when something touches me, and can usually figure out what that was.
It seems to me a lot of times, that is all a poet wants to hear...how they touched others.

 

[hmmnmm]

Uh, why?

What about the case where someone (hey, let's take me, for example) reads something you wrote and doesn't understand it. Or finds it confusing. Or finds a metaphor obscure, or something offensive, or, or, or.

Comments, I think, are reactions from readers. If you get responses from people who are teachers, well and good. You lucked out.

Should you want teachers? Absofuckinglutley! Are you lkely to find one? Well....

Should you pay attention to readers, serious readers? Readers who cared enough to comment (again, I don't mean the "I loved this" or "this sucks" crowd)?

In my opine, yes. Your feedback may differ.

If a reader stumbles over a few words before getting to the end, or falls off the cliff, and I am fortunate to know or to have known a reliable teacher (not necessarily a human one), I might go and ask, "people keep falling from cliffs when they read stuff I wrote. Why do you think that is?"
The teacher may say, "I might fall off a cliff if I came to this line."
"Oh, yeah I see what you mean."
Then I can take it and work on it and maybe fewer people will fall off cliffs.
Maybe.