To win, we need to demonize conservatism

[Politruk]

Another lie.

They've moved left and authoritarian.

Why do keep repeating that flimsy and preposterous lie?

 

[UltraChad]

Why do keep repeating that flimsy and preposterous lie?

I'm not the one repeating the lie about that.

They have left liberalism for progressivism. That's an authoritarian and left move.

 

[Politruk]

I'm not the one repeating the lie about that.

They have left liberalism for progressivism. That's an authoritarian and left move.

If they had, the plutocrats would fear them. They manifestly do not.

 

[UltraChad]

If they had, the plutocrats would fear them. They manifestly do not.

The left is not defined by how much the plutocrats, who are largely leftist themselves, fear them.

You're just making up bullshit again. Bullshit that doesn't even make sense.

 

[Politruk]

The left is not defined by how much the plutocrats, who are largely leftist themselves, fear them.

You're just making up bullshit again. Bullshit that doesn't even make sense.

What makes no sense is calling the plutocrats leftist. The Kochs and Scaifes and Coorses ain't leftist.

*sigh* Once again:

There is a real American left, and its existence matters, and it is to the left of the Democrats, and its influence in that party is negligible. Not even an innocuous, vanilla, more-or-leftist social democrat like Bernie Sanders can get the Dem nomination.

If he had it, he could've beaten Trump. Many voters in 2016 were wavering between Trump and Sanders, seeing both as anti-establishment. But even harmless old Sanders was too anti-establishment for the Democrats.

 

[UltraChad]

What makes no sense is calling the plutocrats leftist.

Are the elite rich not the plutocrats? Most of them are on the left.

The Kochs and Scaifes and Coorses ain't leftist.

Pretty sure the Kochs are now Dems like the Cheneys and the others are like Elon, part of the very small minority of the rich not on the left.

*sigh* Once again:

There is a real American left, and its existence matters, and it is to the left of the Democrats

This is another lie. Just like the idea that YOUR perception of the plutocrats fear defines the left.

Collectivism, equity value priority and the overthrow of the establishment system(s) and institutions is what defines the left. That makes Democrats definitionally leftist. Now, can you just get over the fact that it's not 1960 anymore and stop doing this argument that you lose every single day??

 

[JohnEngelman]

What matters is, conservatism is worthless. In all its forms, that it has taken since American "movement conservatism" got started in 1964.

There is no value whatsoever in racism.

There is no value whatsoever in xenophobia.

There is no value whatsoever in sexism.

There is no value whatsoever in homophobia or transphobia.

There is no value whatsoever in religious/social/cultural traditionalism, and less than none in Christian Nationalism.

There is no value whatsoever in neoliberalism/supply-side economics/economic libertarianism.

There is no value whatsoever in plutocracy.

There is no value whatsoever in middle-class/working-class producerism.

There is no value whatsoever in populist nationalism.

There is no value whatsoever in American exceptionalism.

There is no value whatsoever in neoconservative warhawkery.

There is no value whatsoever in decentralization/local autonomy/"states' rights."

All of these are things America would be -- and someday will be -- much better off without.

And all of these things need to be demonized more fiercely and bitterly and loudly than ever Communism was in any Red-Scare period.

Trump won, despite my vote for Harris, because most Americans feel differently about many of these. You cannot persuade someone by saying, "You're wrong."

Make an effort to understand, and even to a degree respect, opinions based on experiences you have not had. Understand how it feels to be people who disagree with you.

 

[Politruk]

Are the elite rich not the plutocrats? Most of them are on the left.

Hardly any, out of that whole ruling class.

Collectivism, equity value priority and the overthrow of the establishment system(s) and institutions is what defines the left.

It is not what defines the Democrats.

 

[Politruk]

You cannot persuade someone by saying, "You're wrong."

Of course you can, with sufficient volume and repetition.

 

[UltraChad]

Hardly any, out of that whole ruling class.

You're 100% backwards yet again.

It is not what defines the Democrats.

It absolutely does, they even openly profess as much.

It's not 1960 anymore....catch up!!! Democrats are lefties. They might not be as left or the kind of left that YOU want, but they are still definitionally lefties.

Why are you in such denial of this objective reality???

 

[Politruk]

It absolutely does, they even openly profess as much.

Collectivism is not in their platform, their rhetoric, or their behavior in office.

 

[UltraChad]

Collectivism is not in their platform, their rhetoric, or their behavior in office.

In every bit of it, That's what the government in every aspect of everyone's business with taxation and regulation is.

That's why they want the EC gone, the Senate neutered if not gone, they want STATES gone...they don't see ANY rights as individual ones just authority the state has over the individual.

Just like you, they are WILDLY HOSTILE toward any individual rights or institutional checks on centralized authority. Because they are collectivist.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Are the elite rich not the plutocrats? Most of them are on the left.

On social issues this is usually correct. They are in favor of gay rights. Because the Kingdom of Heaven is manifest in their lives, they are rarely religious. They have never been victims of crimes, so it is easy for them to sympathize with criminals. They have traveled throughout the world, so they appreciate other cultures. Finally, they can see that Trump's economic policies are potentially dangerous. They sneer at Trump's low class vulgarity. He is not someone they would invite to their country clubs.

Nevertheless, they are rarely in favor of a more progressive tax system. They dislike labor unions. They do not care about Social Security and Medicare because they do not need them.

 

[Politruk]

That's why they want the EC gone, the Senate neutered if not gone, they want STATES gone...they don't see ANY rights as individual ones

None of those things have anything at all to do with individual rights.

 

[UltraChad]

None of those things have anything at all to do with individual rights.

So? Still examples of their collectivism.

And they still are 100% anti-individual rights too. Not a single one they don't want regulated out of existence to their liking.

 

[UltraChad]

He is not someone they would invite to their country clubs.

Then I voted for the right guy.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Of course you can, with sufficient volume and repetition.

Republicans did not win the working class by saying:

"You should be in favor of lower taxes for the rich. You should be in favor of deep cuts in Social Security and Medicare."

Republicans did win the white working class by saying:

"You should be safe from criminals. You, rather than the schools, should teach your children values. You have the right to be proud to be an American."

 

[Politruk]

Republicans did not win the working class by saying:

"You should be in favor of lower taxes for the rich. You should be in favor of deep cuts in Social Security and Medicare."

Republicans did win the white working class by saying:

"You should be safe from criminals. You, rather than the schools, should teach your children values. You have the right to be proud to be an American."

That's just the difference: The Dems don't need to be dishonest.

 

[Politruk]

In every bit of it, That's what the government in every aspect of everyone's business with taxation and regulation is.

If that's how you feel about it, you should turn your back on the GOP and join the dumbass Libertarians.

 

[JohnEngelman]

If we define a conservative as "someone who wants to preserve most of the status quo, while making incremental reforms," Trump is not a conservative; he is a reactionary. He wants to replace the income tax with tariffs. He wants to replace the civil service with a spoils system. He wants to reduce and perhaps eliminate, environmental protection.

 

[Politruk]

If we define a conservative as "someone who wants to preserve most of the status quo, while making incremental reforms," Trump is not a conservative; he is a reactionary. He wants to replace the income tax with tariffs. He wants to replace the civil service with a spoils system. He wants to reduce and perhaps eliminate, environmental protection.

The GOP has been steadily moving from conservative to reactionary ever since the Reagan years. No conservative would ever shout "End the Fed!" or "Lock her up!" or "Molon labe!"

 

[UltraChad]

If that's how you feel about it, you should turn your back on the GOP and join the dumbass Libertarians.

Feelings got nothing to do with the facts.

And libertarians are in the GOP along with pretty much every other kind of liberal at this point.

 

[Politruk]

Feelings got nothing to do with the facts.

And libertarians are in the GOP along with pretty much every other kind of liberal at this point.

They do not belong in the same party as the religious right.

 

[UltraChad]

Republicans did not win the working class by saying:

"You should be in favor of lower taxes for the rich. You should be in favor of deep cuts in Social Security and Medicare."

Republicans did win the white working class by saying:

"You should be safe from criminals. You, rather than the schools, should teach your children values. You have the right to be proud to be an American."

THat's 100% pure racist MAGA hate speech right there!!! WHYTE SUPREMACIST!!!!! Absolute fuckin' NAZI SCUM!!!!

Shit they'll probably accuse you of rape too if you aren't careful saying far right wing stuff like that. Even just pointing that misinformation out makes you a fascist.....

That's just the difference: The Dems don't need to be dishonest.

See!!! The lefties ^^^ fucking hate the USA.

 

[UltraChad]

They do not belong in the same party as the religious right.

Why not?

Unlike you leftoid control freaks we liberals are capable of letting other people live how they like.

If religious groups want to live religious lifestyles and have religious communities we're ok letting them do so, it's literally a core value of both liberalism and the USA. One leftist, like Democrats, absolutely can't stand.