trangendered

[KABUKISTAR]

You're right; I will never know what it's like to be you. Conversely, you will never know what it's like to be me. As it happens to be, no one will ever know what it's like to be anyone else.

You may consider yourself female, mentally, and you should feel free to express yourself as such. However, I asked you to never be so dishonest as to try to persuade people that your biological sex was female.

Incidentally, saying you have a female brain is like saying you have a tall brain, or a tan brain, or a large-breasted brain. Sex is a physical characteristic, not a personality characteristic.

Gender is a personality characteristic, but to say you have a "female gender" is an equivocation, and an application of a stereotype.

 

[Etoile]

Incidentally, saying you have a female brain is like saying you have a tall brain, or a tan brain, or a large-breasted brain. Sex is a physical characteristic, not a personality characteristic.

Actually, you're not quite right on that. There are biological differences between the male brain and the female brain. Tall women, on the other hand, have the same brain as short women. Men and women, though, definitely have different brains...and that's why there is an element of truth behind the idea that a transgender person might have the opposite brain from their genetic sex.

Some links with further information:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,937913,00.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/heshe.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_v19/ai_4001157
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html

 

[Tymeless]

thanks for digging up information so i didn't have to etoile i read an interesting book awhile back i can't remember the name i have it at my parents house i'll get the name and drop it in this forum so you all can read it if you like, has alot of the science behind transgenderism listed!

hmmmm thought i would add this smiley just because it makes me laugh
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/cybermewtwo/smileys/cm2_glomp_antipac1.gif and we need some lightheartedness going on!

 

[KABUKISTAR]

Actually, you're not quite right on that. There are biological differences between the male brain and the female brain. Tall women, on the other hand, have the same brain as short women. Men and women, though, definitely have different brains...and that's why there is an element of truth behind the idea that a transgender person might have the opposite brain from their genetic sex.

Some links with further information:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,937913,00.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/heshe.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_v19/ai_4001157
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html

That's true in a statistical sense, but not as a hard fact; there are men who have what you would call a "female brain," and there are women who have what you would call a "male brain."
Which is why (personally, I think) it doesn't make any sense to associate brain structure with sex.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

hmmmm thought i would add this smiley just because it makes me laugh
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/cybermewtwo/smileys/cm2_glomp_antipac1.gif and we need some lightheartedness going on!

Hehe... I like that.

 

[Tymeless]

well i see no need to argue over this anymore since its not like we are disagreeing its more like we just have slightly differing points of view. its to aesthetic to worry about its not like your hate mongering against my kind or me the other way around. i just want to inform people about us and try to get at least in the same book if not the same page or chapter. Plus talking about it helps me understand myself and think diffrently when a point is made but i'm still confident in my path but when people raise other idea's i can at least say i thought on them.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

It's always a pleasant surprise when I can have a discussion on differing viewpoints online and have it not turn into a fight.

Yeah, my viewpoint isn't exceptionally counter-trans. I believe that no one should be restricted on how they dress, or act, or who they love, on the basis of their sex. I just also think that sex is static and one shouldn't try to disguise it.

 

[Etoile]

Yeah, my viewpoint isn't exceptionally counter-trans. I believe that no one should be restricted on how they dress, or act, or who they love, on the basis of their sex. I just also think that sex is static and one shouldn't try to disguise it.

I still don't quite get this, but I'm not interested in arguing either.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

Which part are you having trouble getting?

 

[MyFriend27]

i'm not trying to change who i am. i'm trying to change my body. its completely cosmetic. but the hormones do change you to an extent and anyone that tells you otherwise is lying, estrogen makes you more emotional you experience higher highs and lower lows. Testosterone makes you more aggressive and generally more violent but not in all cases. estrogen kills our sexdrive doesn't eliminate it but reduces it big time, testosterone increases sexual desire. so in the end the hormones do effect who you are and how you behave. i'm not doing the hormones or anything for that matter to change me the person i'm doing it to change my body.

I have grown a new respect for you Tymeless. I am glad you are realistic and wont be let down if your results arent exactly what you may have expected. And naughty i accept your apology(Or nice Private Message, Peace agreement, whatever u call it), along with your opinions, and non confrotational stance.

 

[Tymeless]

It's always a pleasant surprise when I can have a discussion on differing viewpoints online and have it not turn into a fight.

Yeah, my viewpoint isn't exceptionally counter-trans. I believe that no one should be restricted on how they dress, or act, or who they love, on the basis of their sex. I just also think that sex is static and one shouldn't try to disguise it.

well that is understandable i'm not trying to disguise anything i just want treated like a woman and i want to look like a woman. nothing more nothing less, I would have no problems after my transition staying out as a trans if i still got treated like a woman, and anyone i'm gonna end up involved with will know that i'm a trans as well as all my friends and family, i'm in by no means in the closet, but i don't want to be out somewhere in the public and just randomly telling people i'm not really a woman. if you understand what i mean. I'm not gonna go to a bar and pickup men or women and let then think i'm a natural female and sleep with them, for one sex doesn't mean that for me, sex is about intimacy with someone i love or at the very least care for deeply and the only way someone is getting in these panties if they know about me and accept me.

 

[Tymeless]

I have grown a new respect for you Tymeless. I am glad you are realistic and wont be let down if your results arent exactly what you may have expected. And naughty i accept your apology(Or nice Private Message, Peace agreement, whatever u call it), along with your opinions, and non confrotational stance.

i appreciate it MyFriend27. I have thought long and hard about this all my life and this is kinda like the woman that is unhappy about her breast and gets them enlarged for herself not for other people, or the botox or whatnot. I'm doing it for me and noone else and i know its cosmetic but its the best medical science can do for me right now.

 

[Tymeless]

damn now this thread needs a troll to get it going again lol!

 

[ShinigamiSama]

ZomgWtfBBq penis haxx!

[/lame joke]

... so how 'bout them HRTs?

 

[KABUKISTAR]

well that is understandable i'm not trying to disguise anything i just want treated like a woman and i want to look like a woman. nothing more nothing less,

Look at it this way. there are two ways of looking at what makes someone a woman:

there's the idea that a woman is anyone with a female mind; anyone who considers themselves a woman

then, there's the idea that a woman is someone with a female mind; specifically, ovaries.

Now, let's see things from the first point of view. A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, such as your self. If this is the case, you already look like a woman, regardless of how you dress or change your appearane. Why? Because you are a woman, and you look like yourself. There's no need to change yourself to look like a woman, because you always have. This may seem weird to you, because most people think of things like breasts and vaginae as reasons that someone looks like a woman, but if a woman is anyone who identifies as such, then these physical features aren't necessary to be a woman, or to look like one. Thus, looking at things his way, it doesn't make sense to change your body, or alter your appearance; you were born looking like a woman, so why change?

Now, looking at things the other way, you are not a woman. You are a man who wants to be a woman very much; but (tragically), wanting to be something is not the same as being it. Considering that you're not a woman, if you want people to see you as a woman, you want people to see you as something you're not. If you want people to address you as a woman, you're asking them to adddress you as something you're not. And, if you try to convince people you're a woman, you are trying to convince them of a lie. Even though you plan to be honest with those closest to you (which is commendable), every think you might do to try to make yourself appear like a woman and convince people you are a woman is a lie. Also, using the women's locker-room or bathroom (considering you aren't one), would be a pretty shady move.



These are the two most popular ways of looking at what makes someone a woman. Neither one of them really justifies changing your appearance. It is only by equivocating between these two definitions of "woman" that one can justify altering their body and appearance to make people believe that they're a woman. It's sort of like saying, "being a woman doesn't require one to have a vagina and breasts and no penis and facial hair, so I can be a woman; however, being a woman requires having breasts and a vagina and no penis or facial hair, so I need to change those about myself." It doesn't make any sense to me.

Understand that I don't mean this as an attack or argument against you, specifically, but just sort of against the common rhetoric and points of view I've heard about of transgendered people give about their identity, and why they want to pass. I just wanted to formulate sort of a logial argument against what I hear alot; I hope it makes sense.

 

[StrixVaria]

Kabukistar, you wouldn't just happen to be one of the organizers of the Womyn's Music Festival, would you?

I really don't understand your point at all. There is a simple fact that Sex, Sexuality and Orientation are three different things. Operating along with this is the fact that Biology is more of an art than a science.

Sex, which you seem to be stuck on, has an infinate array of possibilities - not all of which seem to register with you. Hell, most of us don't understand most of them (including the three double Doc's I hang out with from the CDC). However, I can assure you of this. The sexing of the brain is something that happens before the sexing of the body. It can be influinced by rather subtle changes in the mother's diet, the ingestion of certain medications, or the consumption of contaminated drinking water.

The sexing of the body occurs later in fetal development and is also subject to varriations in diet or medication. Intersex conditions are rather common - how common depends on where you draw the line - but they range from conditions such as Micropenis to elongated clitoris...and are frequently "corrected" in surgery before the infant is ever presented to the parents.

Now, how would you define these children? Man? Woman? Or, would it be better to allow that these individuals deserve to have a broader definition?

Now, if you allow that there are "Other states of being", then you should not have too much trouble with a person choosing to alter a body to match what their brain is telling them that they are.

The hard and fast definition of gender is something that really just gets under my skin. That "Hard" definition is one of the elements which allows parents to beat the hell out of "little boys" who like dolls or to force "little girls" into dresses, when they would be much happier playing in the mud. I don't understand it.

Kabukistar, what is it that frightens you into forcing a binary definition onto something which has an entire prisim of possibility?

 

[Tymeless]

Kabukistar, you wouldn't just happen to be one of the organizers of the Womyn's Music Festival, would you?

I really don't understand your point at all. There is a simple fact that Sex, Sexuality and Orientation are three different things. Operating along with this is the fact that Biology is more of an art than a science.

Sex, which you seem to be stuck on, has an infinate array of possibilities - not all of which seem to register with you. Hell, most of us don't understand most of them (including the three double Doc's I hang out with from the CDC). However, I can assure you of this. The sexing of the brain is something that happens before the sexing of the body. It can be influinced by rather subtle changes in the mother's diet, the ingestion of certain medications, or the consumption of contaminated drinking water.

The sexing of the body occurs later in fetal development and is also subject to varriations in diet or medication. Intersex conditions are rather common - how common depends on where you draw the line - but they range from conditions such as Micropenis to elongated clitoris...and are frequently "corrected" in surgery before the infant is ever presented to the parents.

Now, how would you define these children? Man? Woman? Or, would it be better to allow that these individuals deserve to have a broader definition?

Now, if you allow that there are "Other states of being", then you should not have too much trouble with a person choosing to alter a body to match what their brain is telling them that they are.

The hard and fast definition of gender is something that really just gets under my skin. That "Hard" definition is one of the elements which allows parents to beat the hell out of "little boys" who like dolls or to force "little girls" into dresses, when they would be much happier playing in the mud. I don't understand it.

Kabukistar, what is it that frightens you into forcing a binary definition onto something which has an entire prisim of possibility?

good post!

 

[Gi_Venus]

The core of ones sexual identity lies in the mind. A good transgender therapist will guide one to not focus on ones body but actually to accept oneself in mind. Because of acculturation and how we are brought up(as males in the MTF case) we are at conflict within ourselves male with our true female selves.....the key is to lay those conflicts and confusions to rest and to be self actualized. Outside the mind we often get caught up in expectations of others, we are susceptible to the acceptance of family and society in general. The reality is in most cases the transgendered live an unhappy existence.....it is unusual to have a happy life after change....before change.
My ex has a cousin who is a transgendered therapist in california....in his practice he has not seen even one happy ever after. To be fair my therapist claims otherwise and has seen different individuals successfully integrated in society as females. The irony is that to be acceptable to ourselves we have to be prepared for a most likely unhappy existence......live falsely and deny ones true nature or live an unhappy existence. That is why self actualization is so important to the transgendered, it is the only hope for happiness. Grin.....I am a dreamer....I believe that we live outside of boundaries and definitions....the dreams are the reality....why should we live in a finite universe confined by definition. Reality is an interpretation of mind and is different for all. Sorry,...grin..but I believe it comes back to gender identity. One has to accept oneself.
Gianna

 

[Etoile]

My ex has a cousin who is a transgendered therapist in california....in his practice he has not seen even one happy ever after. To be fair my therapist claims otherwise and has seen different individuals successfully integrated in society as females.

I do actually know a transwoman who is quite happy with herself, and as far as I know she lives stealth and is a woman in every way. She's post-SRS, she's gorgeous, and she's well-adjusted and the whole thing. You'd never know she used to be male except she is a bit taller than most women...but there are plenty of women-born women who are tall. It is possible, but I think it's difficult...she is a rarity.

 

[Gi_Venus]

I do actually know a transwoman who is quite happy with herself, and as far as I know she lives stealth and is a woman in every way. She's post-SRS, she's gorgeous, and she's well-adjusted and the whole thing. You'd never know she used to be male except she is a bit taller than most women...but there are plenty of women-born women who are tall. It is possible, but I think it's difficult...she is a rarity.

Those cases are the hope for all of us. Smile. Thank you for sharing Etoile Now if I can get my voice trained....sigh!

 

[Tymeless]

you never cease to amaze me gianna!!!!

i thank god that i'm only 5'4" tall. and that once i lose the weight i have alot of features that are flattering for a woman, full lips long eyelashes and oh so much more. I don't think i'll have much problem melting into society other then my male pattern baldness but from my understanding that stops and some of it might actually grow back but if it doesn't hairclub for men is my friend lol!

 

[KABUKISTAR]

Kabukistar, you wouldn't just happen to be one of the organizers of the Womyn's Music Festival, would you?

Nope; I happen to be a man, myself. I've read into the Michegan Womyn's Music Festival, and I find it interesting, though. It seems sort of shady to make a music festival like that, and than keep such a huge chunk of the population out.

I really don't understand your point at all. There is a simple fact that Sex, Sexuality and Orientation are three different things. Operating along with this is the fact that Biology is more of an art than a science.

It would be nice if you would give me your definitions for these terms, then. The way I've learned them, sexuality and orientation are the same thing (both reffer to which people you are attracted to, based on sex or gender).
The two terms that I usually hear, in conjunction with this study are:

1) Sex: the quality of being physically male or female, what's between your legs, what they mark on your birth-certificate when you're born.

2) Gender: what you identify, what your mind is, masculine or feminine-wise.

Sex, which you seem to be stuck on, has an infinate array of possibilities - not all of which seem to register with you. Hell, most of us don't understand most of them (including the three double Doc's I hang out with from the CDC). However, I can assure you of this. The sexing of the brain is something that happens before the sexing of the body. It can be influinced by rather subtle changes in the mother's diet, the ingestion of certain medications, or the consumption of contaminated drinking water.

The sexing of the body occurs later in fetal development and is also subject to varriations in diet or medication. Intersex conditions are rather common - how common depends on where you draw the line - but they range from conditions such as Micropenis to elongated clitoris...and are frequently "corrected" in surgery before the infant is ever presented to the parents.

Now, how would you define these children? Man? Woman?

Well, if you want to get specific the micro-penis I would classify as male, and the elongated clitoris I would classify as female, tentatively. However, people born with ambiguous genitalia, or both genetalia is a gray-area, when it comes to sex classification. In these cases, it seems reasonable to allow the person to choose which sex they preffer to be addressed out. They are born with one foot in male territory and one foot in female territory, and it doesn't make sense to arbitrarilly impose on them what they have to be viewed as.

If someone is NOT born with ambiguous genetalia, though, I feel more than comfortable labelling them male or female, when they're clearly one of the other.

Or, would it be better to allow that these individuals deserve to have a broader definition?

I allow all people to categorize themselves under the boader definition of "person;" it is only when they start categorizing themselves as "man" or "woman," in a false way that I disagree with them.

Now, if you allow that there are "Other states of being", then you should not have too much trouble with a person choosing to alter a body to match what their brain is telling them that they are.

There seem to be alot of people out there who, upon seeing the gray areas, refuse to accept that anything in the world is black or white. On the other hand, there are alot of people who see things as black and white, and refuse to accept that there are any gray areas. To me (and this is my view for life in general, not just sex assignment), it is unreasonable to point out one and ignore the others; there are things in life that are black-and-white, that are clearly obvious right-and-wrong, yes-and-no, with clear seperation between them. On the other hand, there are things that are not clear, that are fuzzy and don't particularilly fit into one category or the other.

See, just because there's some gray area in sex, and some people who are born not entirely male and not entirely female (people who it would be unreasonable to arbitrarilly classify), doesn't mean that there aren't people who are born with a clearly male sex, or a clearly female sex. And these people, who are clearly one thing, do not have the entitlement to label themselves as something else which they are not.

The hard and fast definition of gender is something that really just gets under my skin. That "Hard" definition is one of the elements which allows parents to beat the hell out of "little boys" who like dolls or to force "little girls" into dresses, when they would be much happier playing in the mud. I don't understand it.

You're right. I totally agree with you here. It's totally rediulous to say that some stereotypes of behaviour are necessary for someone, based on their sex. And it's simply child abuse to punish a boy for playing with dolls, or a girl for being a tomboy.

Kabukistar, what is it that frightens you into forcing a binary definition onto something which has an entire prisim of possibility?

It's not really a prism; for the most part, it's divided into two clear areas, with a small, fuzzy line in the middle; a line on which a relatively tiny piece of the population falls onto.

It is when someone who does not fall on that ambiguous-sex line, but is clearly one side, and claims to be on the other. Then, they are applying a binary definition to themselves, and applying it falsely.

Make sense?

 

[Etoile]

It is when someone who does not fall on that ambiguous-sex line, but is clearly one side, and claims to be on the other. Then, they are applying a binary definition to themselves, and applying it falsely.

Make sense?

I gather that this is the basis for your preference that trans people don't try to convince people they're something they're not. Why do you prefer that people stay on the side of the line they were born on? What if they were born on the wrong side for some reason? What if they really belonged on the other side of the line? Why should you insist that they stay where they were born? It seems that you are afraid of feeling deceived, which speaks to a deeper distrust of humanity rather than just trans persons.

 

[Tymeless]

Nope; I happen to be a man, myself. I've read into the Michegan Womyn's Music Festival, and I find it interesting, though. It seems sort of shady to make a music festival like that, and than keep such a huge chunk of the population out.


It would be nice if you would give me your definitions for these terms, then. The way I've learned them, sexuality and orientation are the same thing (both reffer to which people you are attracted to, based on sex or gender).
The two terms that I usually hear, in conjunction with this study are:

1) Sex: the quality of being physically male or female, what's between your legs, what they mark on your birth-certificate when you're born.

2) Gender: what you identify, what your mind is, masculine or feminine-wise.


Well, if you want to get specific the micro-penis I would classify as male, and the elongated clitoris I would classify as female, tentatively. However, people born with ambiguous genitalia, or both genetalia is a gray-area, when it comes to sex classification. In these cases, it seems reasonable to allow the person to choose which sex they preffer to be addressed out. They are born with one foot in male territory and one foot in female territory, and it doesn't make sense to arbitrarilly impose on them what they have to be viewed as.

If someone is NOT born with ambiguous genetalia, though, I feel more than comfortable labelling them male or female, when they're clearly one of the other.


I allow all people to categorize themselves under the boader definition of "person;" it is only when they start categorizing themselves as "man" or "woman," in a false way that I disagree with them.


There seem to be alot of people out there who, upon seeing the gray areas, refuse to accept that anything in the world is black or white. On the other hand, there are alot of people who see things as black and white, and refuse to accept that there are any gray areas. To me (and this is my view for life in general, not just sex assignment), it is unreasonable to point out one and ignore the others; there are things in life that are black-and-white, that are clearly obvious right-and-wrong, yes-and-no, with clear seperation between them. On the other hand, there are things that are not clear, that are fuzzy and don't particularilly fit into one category or the other.

See, just because there's some gray area in sex, and some people who are born not entirely male and not entirely female (people who it would be unreasonable to arbitrarilly classify), doesn't mean that there aren't people who are born with a clearly male sex, or a clearly female sex. And these people, who are clearly one thing, do not have the entitlement to label themselves as something else which they are not.


You're right. I totally agree with you here. It's totally rediulous to say that some stereotypes of behaviour are necessary for someone, based on their sex. And it's simply child abuse to punish a boy for playing with dolls, or a girl for being a tomboy.



It's not really a prism; for the most part, it's divided into two clear areas, with a small, fuzzy line in the middle; a line on which a relatively tiny piece of the population falls onto.

It is when someone who does not fall on that ambiguous-sex line, but is clearly one side, and claims to be on the other. Then, they are applying a binary definition to themselves, and applying it falsely.

Make sense?

no it doesn't make since because all your ignorance is saying is someones body means more then their mind and i'll disagree with you and say that someones mind is more important then their body. Its no diffrent then women getting breast implants or botox. Yeah their breast aren't completely real but they are still a woman. So i take it wearing make up isn't acceptable by your standards either because they are disguising what they really look like. You my friend while i respect your right to have your own opinion obviously don't respect the fact that our minds are more important then a physical body. Trust me lots of agonizing goes into making this decision and i wish to god i could live a happy life in the male body but i can't and i'm not gonna fight it to make people like you happy. You don't have to accept whether its right or wrong its not your decision to make, but you can't reasonably tell me that the world would treat me like a woman if i stayed my male body because they wouldn't and just like you i don't think the body should have any influence on how we are treated but it does, and as long as it does transgenders are gonna exist and change their bodies from male to female or female to male. Its not about making you or the population happy its about making it so we can survive in this world for our own health and self fulfillment. rant off

 

[KABUKISTAR]

I gather that this is the basis for your preference that trans people don't try to convince people they're something they're not. Why do you prefer that people stay on the side of the line they were born on? What if they were born on the wrong side for some reason? What if they really belonged on the other side of the line? Why should you insist that they stay where they were born? It seems that you are afraid of feeling deceived, which speaks to a deeper distrust of humanity rather than just trans persons.

Good observation, Etoile. You're right; that is the basis for my preference that transpeople don't try to convince people that they're something they aren't (incidentally, that's just just trans people; I really prefer that no people try to convince others that they're something they're not).

It's not that I'm morally opposed to people crossing the sex line, it's just that current technology does not allow for it; the changes made in SRS are cosmetic; any surgically-created genitalia is not really the reproductive organ it was meant to be; it's just flesh sculpted to look like it.

no it doesn't make since because all your ignorance is saying is someones body means more then their mind and i'll disagree with you and say that someones mind is more important then their body.

Generally, it's bad form to call someone ignorant for having a different opinion than you. I'd like to keep this discussion from degrading into personal attacks.

Its no diffrent then women getting breast implants or botox. Yeah their breast aren't completely real but they are still a woman. So i take it wearing make up isn't acceptable by your standards either because they are disguising what they really look like.

For the record, I'm not too on botox or breast-implants. Make-up is fine for special occasions, but I usually don't go for a girl who wears it every-day (though that's more of a matter of personal preference). You're right, though, make-up and all cosmetic surgery is an attempt by people to disguise themselves. The main difference between these, and sex-masking procedures is mostly one of callibur; make-up provides a subtle differene to one's appearance (and it's something that usually makes itself obvious, if there's much of it). Botox and breast implants provide a more noticible change, but they still leave someone looking the same enough that you could reccognize them, if you met them before the surgery.
Transitioning, on the other hand, completely changes one's appearance (usually), and accompanied with a name-change (as it often is), makes the person afterwards often completely unreccognizeable. More importantly, it is often accompanied with people specifically reffering to themselves, and identifying themselves as a sex which they are not.

You my friend while i respect your right to have your own opinion obviously don't respect the fact that our minds are more important then a physical body.

You're right; they are. Your sex (which is part of your body), is not important as your mind. Your sex does not determine what sort of people you can like, or what you want to do with your life, or how you like to talk or dress, or what TV shows and books you like, or you opinions. Your mind determines all the important things about who you are.
Your sex does, however, determine what sex you are (truism), and if your mind decides it wants to make people think that you're a different sex, your mind would be lieing.

Trust me lots of agonizing goes into making this decision and i wish to god i could live a happy life in the male body but i can't and i'm not gonna fight it to make people like you happy. You don't have to accept whether its right or wrong its not your decision to make, but you can't reasonably tell me that the world would treat me like a woman if i stayed my male body because they wouldn't and just like you i don't think the body should have any influence on how we are treated but it does, and as long as it does transgenders are gonna exist and change their bodies from male to female or female to male. Its not about making you or the population happy its about making it so we can survive in this world for our own health and self fulfillment.

Changing your body in order to survive in this world for your own health and self-fulfillment? Weren't you the one just telling me that it's your mind that matters, not your body? Oh well.

I suppose whether it's right to be constantly misleading people to make your life significantly less tumultuous is an ethical question that goes far beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm not going to try to raise the argument up to that right now. I just want to argue my empirical views about what makes someone a woman or a man.