trangendered

[Etoile]

any surgically-created genitalia is not really the reproductive organ it was meant to be;

My only complaint here is with the suggestion that our genitalia are meant for reproduction. They may work very well for that, but as gay people and infertile people will tell you, reproduction is not their only purpose. (I'm also a little fuzzy on the concept of "meant to be" but that's probably because I'm an atheist.)

You're right, though, make-up and all cosmetic surgery is an attempt by people to disguise themselves.

I wonder...is your opinion based more on your personal issues of not wanting to feel deceived, or on the fact that you don't think anyone should be allowed to pretend to be something they're not, regardless of what that is or why they are doing it, and the fact that you don't want to feel deceived is a side effect of what you believe is "right" for humans?

 

[ShinigamiSama]

I'm noticing a lot of back peddling going on here...
along with a fair bit of ignorance/misinformation as well.

I'm really getting the feeling that this person doesn't really believe that being trans/inter-sexed is a real condition.

but that might just be because I looked in here 1/2 way into this verbal joust match

 

[Tymeless]

Good observation, Etoile. You're right; that is the basis for my preference that transpeople don't try to convince people that they're something they aren't (incidentally, that's just just trans people; I really prefer that no people try to convince others that they're something they're not).

It's not that I'm morally opposed to people crossing the sex line, it's just that current technology does not allow for it; the changes made in SRS are cosmetic; any surgically-created genitalia is not really the reproductive organ it was meant to be; it's just flesh sculpted to look like it.


Generally, it's bad form to call someone ignorant for having a different opinion than you. I'd like to keep this discussion from degrading into personal attacks.

For the record, I'm not too on botox or breast-implants. Make-up is fine for special occasions, but I usually don't go for a girl who wears it every-day (though that's more of a matter of personal preference). You're right, though, make-up and all cosmetic surgery is an attempt by people to disguise themselves. The main difference between these, and sex-masking procedures is mostly one of callibur; make-up provides a subtle differene to one's appearance (and it's something that usually makes itself obvious, if there's much of it). Botox and breast implants provide a more noticible change, but they still leave someone looking the same enough that you could reccognize them, if you met them before the surgery.
Transitioning, on the other hand, completely changes one's appearance (usually), and accompanied with a name-change (as it often is), makes the person afterwards often completely unreccognizeable. More importantly, it is often accompanied with people specifically reffering to themselves, and identifying themselves as a sex which they are not.



You're right; they are. Your sex (which is part of your body), is not important as your mind. Your sex does not determine what sort of people you can like, or what you want to do with your life, or how you like to talk or dress, or what TV shows and books you like, or you opinions. Your mind determines all the important things about who you are.
Your sex does, however, determine what sex you are (truism), and if your mind decides it wants to make people think that you're a different sex, your mind would be lieing.



Changing your body in order to survive in this world for your own health and self-fulfillment? Weren't you the one just telling me that it's your mind that matters, not your body? Oh well.

I suppose whether it's right to be constantly misleading people to make your life significantly less tumultuous is an ethical question that goes far beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm not going to try to raise the argument up to that right now. I just want to argue my empirical views about what makes someone a woman or a man.

and you apparently don't understand that the cause of this is completely biological and we grow up from childhood and up into adulthood wondering why we can't accept our bodies because of our genitals, I wish i could be happy in a male appearing body because its easier but i can't, trust me i've tried it for 25 years. Do i wish society could accept me if i wore skirts and makeup and dresses etc yes i do but society doesn't accept that and even then i wouldn't be completely happy because you know why my brain tells me i was supposed to have a pussy and breast. You know what when i grow the breast they are natural. When my body changes shape its natural. More so then a woman when she gets implants its just my body redistributes the fat diffrently nothing more nothing less.

So to you and your need to not be deceived in reality i'm not gonna have anything to do with you or anyone in the general public does my choice in genitals really matter that much? If i'm providing you a service at a grocery store does it matter if i have a penis or a vagina or a surgically constructed vagina between my legs because truthfully to me it doesn't matter to me if someone providing a service to me is black, white, red, yellow, male, female, transgender, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual. Now the people i choose to keep close to me in life will all know about my Condition and they all do. When i decide to go through with this my employer will know. Trust me while there are some trans out there that won't even acknowledge they were once another gender most of them if they are close to will you will let you know. Some are flamboyant enough that they will tell you even if you don't know them.
I've been on both points of view most of my life i would have nothing to do with transgenderism i thought it was wrong but i wasn't going to condemn anyone that chose to go through with it because its there life what do i care. Then I did some research on the subject at hand and the information provided is very 2 sided, they let you know of the side effects they make it clear that this may not make you happy and that is why its such a long and hard process to get through not to mention expensive, its not for the feint of heart or the person that just thinks it would be kinda nice to be the other sex. Its for people that really have a determination to make it through the 5 year+ process.

If our mind is female and our body is now made to look female i ask you truely what was the deception the original body or the new reconstructed body. View the body as more of a house or a castle. It can start one way and if the owner doesn't like it they can add on or subtract, change the plumping, add new windows whatever they like.

I don't want this to degrade any further then it has but your narrowminded view of i shouldn't get to be what makes me happy just because you don't wanna be tricked by someone. My condition effects 1 in 100,000 people in the united states and they think it might be higher then that but people are to afraid to admit to their gender dysphoria. You take it like we make this decision lightly that we haven't thought this out, well we have and we risk losing everything to do it, not unlike gays and lesbians. Thats why our communities are so closely linked together. and for that matter i'm a lesbian so it has nothing to do with getting physical with anyone.

 

[tribbles]

Now the people i choose to keep close to me in life will all know about my Condition and they all do.

These are the people who have to know. If you start a relationship with someone that is a love relationship, they need to know who they are growing to love. How else can they really love your or you love them? I don't see where an employer, or customer or stranger ever has to know squat.

I don't tell them I'm a swinger or I'm bisexual. Why would it matter?


I'd like to know if KABUKISTAR thinks it matters what strangers see or think? Or just close loved ones?

 

[KABUKISTAR]

Tymeless, if you have what you call a "female mind" (though I don't lke that terminology), you can feel free to make that clear to people all you want, and it will be completely true. However, if you try to convince people you are physically female, that will be a lie.

My only complaint here is with the suggestion that our genitalia are meant for reproduction. They may work very well for that, but as gay people and infertile people will tell you, reproduction is not their only purpose. (I'm also a little fuzzy on the concept of "meant to be" but that's probably because I'm an atheist.)

When I say "meant to be," I was talking about surgically created genitalia, which is meant to be a vagina or a penis, by the surgeon.

I wonder...is your opinion based more on your personal issues of not wanting to feel deceived, or on the fact that you don't think anyone should be allowed to pretend to be something they're not, regardless of what that is or why they are doing it, and the fact that you don't want to feel deceived is a side effect of what you believe is "right" for humans?

Like I said, I don't want to turn this discussion into a normative one of truth vs. happiness.
I'm just keeping it to my empirical views, right now; as in, what makes someone a man or a woman.

 

[Tymeless]

Tymeless, if you have what you call a "female mind" (though I don't lke that terminology), you can feel free to make that clear to people all you want, and it will be completely true. However, if you try to convince people you are physically female, that will be a lie.



When I say "meant to be," I was talking about surgically created genitalia, which is meant to be a vagina or a penis, by the surgeon.


Like I said, I don't want to turn this discussion into a normative one of truth vs. happiness.
I'm just keeping it to my empirical views, right now; as in, what makes someone a man or a woman.

seems to me your stuck in an old world way of thinking about everything in a male dominated society, you can't see past your own beliefs to acknowledge someone elses. whereas i've been on your side of the view and to basically calling anyone that is transgendered a liar you obviously don't care enough to look at the research behind it or look at any of the facts that have been presented to you. I for one am not a liar and any person i'm gonna date or become intimate with will know about me so i won't be lying to anyone i'll just be showing the inner me to them. Everyones body is their own property and they have the right to do with it as they please, they can alter it and make it look however they want, just like you can alter your car or your house or your land, as long as it meets legal specifications i have no right to complain what you chose to do to those things or are you just lying if you add a corvette engine into a crown victoria and then put on a Porche body kit (i don't know enough about cars to know if thats possible or not exactly) on it to change the outside appearance to something its not and your changing the essential pipework to something else.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

I'd like to know if KABUKISTAR thinks it matters what strangers see or think? Or just close loved ones?

Whether people draw true conclusions doesn't really matter so much as whether you try to convince them of something false.

After-all, one could try to convince people of something that's false, and even if everyone sees right through them, they were still being dishonest.

 

[tribbles]

Whether people draw true conclusions doesn't really matter so much as whether you try to convince them of something false.

After-all, one could try to convince people of something that's false, and even if everyone sees right through them, they were still being dishonest.

But which people? If I pad my bras to look bigger, is it to convince people my breasts are that size?

To some degree dishonesty is a part of our whole culture as far as looks go.And has been for generations.

To be totally natural would mean no hair color, no hair cuts, no plucking, no shaving........

This seems to be a gray area, not black and white. And what I see is you have a spot you draw your line and others have a different place to draw their lines.

Is there a place that everyone should have the same line?

IMHO it would be with the person who loves you and who you love. Everyone else, it shouldn't matter.

 

[Tymeless]

Whether people draw true conclusions doesn't really matter so much as whether you try to convince them of something false.

After-all, one could try to convince people of something that's false, and even if everyone sees right through them, they were still being dishonest.

i'm done arguing with you its apparent that you can't see past your own beliefs or acknowledge the facts that have been presented to you. I will no longer sit here and tolerate you calling me or anyone with my condition a liar. We are some of the sweetest most honest people you will meet and all we ask from people is to not treat us like freaks. I truely believe your a troll that has come to this forum just to cause problems like others have in other threads in the past. Myfriend at least had 1000's of post before he started in on this thread which means he has been around awhile and didn't just randomly pick a thread to start trying to impose his views on other. I don't ask you to accept me as i am or even like me as a human being all i ask from you is to not belittle me for making a decision that was really hard for me to make you have no right to make me or any other transgender feel guilty for our decisions and if your a believer in the bible you have no right to judge anyone for their decisions or opinions. I'm sure your an alright person thats just really stubborn with your views on certain things like all of us. I am not gonna judge you or call you a liar in anyway all i'm gonna say is try to take the information presented to you and make a decision on that and if you still don't feel thats enough information i'm sure one of us on the boards will be more then glad to find you more so you can make an informed decision based on the science and psycology behind it all.

thanks for listening

 

[KABUKISTAR]

seems to me your stuck in an old world way of thinking about everything in a male dominated society, you can't see past your own beliefs to acknowledge someone elses. whereas i've been on your side of the view and to basically calling anyone that is transgendered a liar you obviously don't care enough to look at the research behind it or look at any of the facts that have been presented to you. I for one am not a liar and any person i'm gonna date or become intimate with will know about me so i won't be lying to anyone i'll just be showing the inner me to them. Everyones body is their own property and they have the right to do with it as they please, they can alter it and make it look however they want, just like you can alter your car or your house or your land, as long as it meets legal specifications i have no right to complain what you chose to do to those things or are you just lying if you add a corvette engine into a crown victoria and then put on a Porche body kit (i don't know enough about cars to know if thats possible or not exactly) on it to change the outside appearance to something its not and your changing the essential pipework to something else.

I don't know how that Male-dominated society thing came up, but you're right: everyone's body is their own, and no one should be able to control what you do with your own body.

I just think that someone trying to convince that they're someone they're not (whether by changing their body, or by what they say) is dishonest.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

But which people? If I pad my bras to look bigger, is it to convince people my breasts are that size?

To some degree dishonesty is a part of our whole culture as far as looks go.And has been for generations.

To be totally natural would mean no hair color, no hair cuts, no plucking, no shaving........

This seems to be a gray area, not black and white. And what I see is you have a spot you draw your line and others have a different place to draw their lines.

Is there a place that everyone should have the same line?

IMHO it would be with the person who loves you and who you love. Everyone else, it shouldn't matter.

As far as padded bras, see what I sad about make-up and botox.

As far as no hair cuts, no shaving, etc., etc. Well, that's totally untrue; when you cut your hair, it's not that you're trying to convince people that your hair is that short without cutting, you're just trying to make yourself look nice. I have no problem with people altering their bodies, as long as the reason they're doing it isn't to convince people something's true that isn't.

I'll repeat that: I have no problem with people altering their bodies, as long as the reason they're doing so isn't to convince people something's true that isn't.

As far as that blak-white-grey thing, I was using that to make a point about being one sex or another. As it happens I think that convincing people that one is a sex that they aren't is dishonest, but often greatly increases one's quality of life, so it's a gray area. I'm not trying to say that the dishonesty outweighs how muc better it would make one's live, just that it is dishonest.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

i'm done arguing with you its apparent that you can't see past your own beliefs or acknowledge the facts that have been presented to you. I will no longer sit here and tolerate you calling me or anyone with my condition a liar. We are some of the sweetest most honest people you will meet and all we ask from people is to not treat us like freaks. I truely believe your a troll that has come to this forum just to cause problems like others have in other threads in the past. Myfriend at least had 1000's of post before he started in on this thread which means he has been around awhile and didn't just randomly pick a thread to start trying to impose his views on other. I don't ask you to accept me as i am or even like me as a human being all i ask from you is to not belittle me for making a decision that was really hard for me to make you have no right to make me or any other transgender feel guilty for our decisions and if your a believer in the bible you have no right to judge anyone for their decisions or opinions. I'm sure your an alright person thats just really stubborn with your views on certain things like all of us. I am not gonna judge you or call you a liar in anyway all i'm gonna say is try to take the information presented to you and make a decision on that and if you still don't feel thats enough information i'm sure one of us on the boards will be more then glad to find you more so you can make an informed decision based on the science and psycology behind it all.

thanks for listening

You're welcome. Thanks for listening to me, too, although I'm sorry you didn't want to stick around longer. Incidentally, I'm not religious at all, or conservative for that matter. These are my own opinions, not ones that I inherited from a church or my parents, or anything like that. I don't think it's wrong for a man to wear a dress, or to fall in love with other men, or to wear makeup, or to prefer to sew and nurture than to play sports and hunt. I don't think that these things are contradictory with one being a man; I just see manhood and as a physical thing; just part of your body and nothing else.

It was nie talking to you, Tymeless. I hope there's no hard feelings.

 

[Etoile]

I have no problem with people altering their bodies, as long as the reason they're doing so isn't to convince people something's true that isn't.

But why is that so wrong? Isn't it just because you, personally, don't want to feel deceived? I might be jumping to conclusions here, but I feel like what you're afraid of is finding out the hot chick you're dating was born a man.

 

[Tymeless]

But why is that so wrong? Isn't it just because you, personally, don't want to feel deceived? I might be jumping to conclusions here, but I feel like what you're afraid of is finding out the hot chick you're dating was born a man.

i feel thats what it is even if he isn't oppsed to dating another man. I think i understand where he is coming from i just don't believe his point of view anymore where i once had one similar. I have no ill feelings i'm just not gonna argue a point with him no more its not worth it he has his view and I have mine and i'm not one for confrontation and arguments when it can be avoided.

 

[tribbles]

I'll repeat that: I have no problem with people altering their bodies, as long as the reason they're doing so isn't to convince people something's true that isn't.

As far as that blak-white-grey thing, I was using that to make a point about being one sex or another. As it happens I think that convincing people that one is a sex that they aren't is dishonest, but often greatly increases one's quality of life, so it's a gray area. I'm not trying to say that the dishonesty outweighs how muc better it would make one's live, just that it is dishonest.

So, like many things, it may be classified as dishonest in some ways and more honest in others...cuz they are matching who they inside are with the body outside. If they tried to live life as the physical outward sex of the body, they would be being dishonest in some ways as well. Although I do wonder where the line to need to alter that body is....I can see needing to cuz of how other people treat the sexes different. If I'm female inside but have a male body, will anyone treat me with the same care they would treat a female? Or might they aim to provoke a fight or play male oneupmanship games even tho I would see that from a female perspective?

Isn't there some dishonesty in acting like a male when you feel like a female?

If our society accepted males acting like a female, it might be easier. I know I act male and have a female body but it's more accepted although I'm still considered odd.

 

[KABUKISTAR]

I just feel a general moral attraction to truth and honesty; I don't think I'm that strange in that aspect.

I actually did have that happen to me once; where I was flirting at another student at my school which I thought was a woman, but was actually a man. When he told me, it didn't bug me that much; I'm glad he told me the truth eventually. Him and I are still friends.

 

[Tymeless]

So, like many things, it may be classified as dishonest in some ways and more honest in others...cuz they are matching who they inside are with the body outside. If they tried to live life as the physical outward sex of the body, they would be being dishonest in some ways as well. Although I do wonder where the line to need to alter that body is....I can see needing to cuz of how other people treat the sexes different. If I'm female inside but have a male body, will anyone treat me with the same care they would treat a female? Or might they aim to provoke a fight or play male oneupmanship games even tho I would see that from a female perspective?

Isn't there some dishonesty in acting like a male when you feel like a female?

If our society accepted males acting like a female, it might be easier. I know I act male and have a female body but it's more accepted although I'm still considered odd.

thats exactly my point but you articulated it way better then i ever could. Its a catch 22 and even if males acting female was accepted i can't say i still wouldn't do it because my brain tells me i was meant to have breast and a vagina, while i may never have the vagina i will go to bed everynight praying and wishing i did!

 

[MyFriend27]

This Was My Freakin Point From Day 1 Of My Posts

From my first point the below comments were some of my important points but

the one thing that makes no sense and for some reason ETOILE you love to harp on constantly and on like everyone of your posts on this thread is "You'd never know she used to be male except she is a bit taller than most women"
THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are implying that this person is no longer a male????????????????????????



QUOTE=Etoile]I do actually know a transwoman who is quite happy with herself, and as far as I know she lives stealth and is a woman in every way. She's post-SRS, she's gorgeous, and she's well-adjusted and the whole thing. ..but there are plenty of women-born women who are tall. It is possible, but I think it's difficult...she is a rarity.[/QUOTE]

Those cases are the hope for all of us. Smile. Thank you for sharing Etoile Now if I can get my voice trained....sigh!

 

[Etoile]

the one thing that makes no sense and for some reason ETOILE you love to harp on constantly and on like everyone of your posts on this thread is "You'd never know she used to be male except she is a bit taller than most women"
THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are implying that this person is no longer a male????????????????????????

Yes, I am saying that. I believe a person is more than their arrangement of chromosomes. Thanks for demonstrating just how anti-trans you really are, that's helpful to the rest of us. Though I'm not sure what you're doing on this board if you have no respect for trans people.

 

[MyFriend27]

and you apparently don't understand that the cause of this is completely biological and we grow up from childhood and up into adulthood wondering why we can't accept our bodies because of our genitals, I wish i could be happy in a male appearing body because its easier but i can't, trust me i've tried it for 25 years. Do i wish society could accept me if i wore skirts and makeup and dresses etc yes i do but society doesn't accept that and even then i wouldn't be completely happy because you know why my brain tells me i was supposed to have a pussy and breast. You know what when i grow the breast they are natural. When my body changes shape its natural. More so then a woman when she gets implants its just my body redistributes the fat diffrently nothing more nothing less.

So to you and your need to not be deceived in reality i'm not gonna have anything to do with you or anyone in the general public does my choice in genitals really matter that much? If i'm providing you a service at a grocery store does it matter if i have a penis or a vagina or a surgically constructed vagina between my legs because truthfully to me it doesn't matter to me if someone providing a service to me is black, white, red, yellow, male, female, transgender, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual. Now the people i choose to keep close to me in life will all know about my Condition and they all do. When i decide to go through with this my employer will know. Trust me while there are some trans out there that won't even acknowledge they were once another gender most of them if they are close to will you will let you know. Some are flamboyant enough that they will tell you even if you don't know them.
I've been on both points of view most of my life i would have nothing to do with transgenderism i thought it was wrong but i wasn't going to condemn anyone that chose to go through with it because its there life what do i care. Then I did some research on the subject at hand and the information provided is very 2 sided, they let you know of the side effects they make it clear that this may not make you happy and that is why its such a long and hard process to get through not to mention expensive, its not for the feint of heart or the person that just thinks it would be kinda nice to be the other sex. Its for people that really have a determination to make it through the 5 year+ process.

If our mind is female and our body is now made to look female i ask you truely what was the deception the original body or the new reconstructed body. View the body as more of a house or a castle. It can start one way and if the owner doesn't like it they can add on or subtract, change the plumping, add new windows whatever they like.

I don't want this to degrade any further then it has but your narrowminded view of i shouldn't get to be what makes me happy just because you don't wanna be tricked by someone. My condition effects 1 in 100,000 people in the united states and they think it might be higher then that but people are to afraid to admit to their gender dysphoria. You take it like we make this decision lightly that we haven't thought this out, well we have and we risk losing everything to do it, not unlike gays and lesbians. Thats why our communities are so closely linked together. and for that matter i'm a lesbian so it has nothing to do with getting physical with anyone.

I would really like to understand something about transsexuals as i would identify a person as a shemale that is just dissrespectful and false as the word isnt recognized in the English language either just some word made up by money hungry porno freaks. The question i have is why do so many transsexuals keep their male genitals?

 

[Tymeless]

I would really like to understand something about transsexuals as i would identify a person as a shemale that is just dissrespectful and false as the word isnt recognized in the English language either just some word made up by money hungry porno freaks. The question i have is why do so many transsexuals keep their male genitals?

mostly prevalent reason is the cost of surgery. Most transgenders end up having to work low paying jobs and can never afford the SRS. Other reasons are unless your lucky enough to get a really good doctor there are risk that greatly outnumber the benefits of the surgeries, death, complete lose of feeling, poor quality looking neovaginas. I personally am undecided on whether i'll go through with SRS right now but the reason is the cost, and i'm gonna wait to see if medical science will end up finding something better for us.

 

[MyFriend27]

Ok

Yes, I am saying that. I believe a person is more than their arrangement of chromosomes. Thanks for demonstrating just how anti-trans you really are, that's helpful to the rest of us. Though I'm not sure what you're doing on this board if you have no respect for trans people.

I have the uttermost respect for people in general. And this is why i respect TYMELESS immensely. I support the transgender community and will always and a person has to be really unhappy with themselves and their body and sex to take such a drastic measure.

Happiness. As i said before you cant put a price on that.
Mental well being. Why would i even care to live life if i didnt have that ?

Yes i do respect a persons identity and think they should live their lives in anyway, sex, gender, they please. But your quote says a person is more than their arrangement of chromosomes but that is my point. If that is true, how does surgery change that? Unless you are saying that surgery can correct a person's gender.
But obviously this is a touchy subject. Amazing that i cant believe how touchy people get. WOW!
If i had a choice to be unhappy and live an unhappy life or get surgery and enjoy my life then i would choose the ladder i am just shocked that a surgery can make a person happy in this way and that was my point. To talk about killing oneself rather then living a certain way is just nuts. I just dont believe what defines a person is resolved in a painful surgery but maybe i am wrong. Since i am my own person i cant get into TYMELESS' minds or whomevers minds and feelings and understand how they feel. I cant identify true but i support. I guess it is born in the wrong body type of thing. Very deep indeed.
Part of my point was not out of disrespect at all. I think you jump way too easy. Part of my point is what really defines how a person is perceived as a woman? Why does a surgery make a person feel more femine then if she didnt get a surgery? Is it the hormones? IS it the implants? Is it really changing a persons body all that much anyways? If you feel a certain way about what sex you are how does surgery really change that? Many have said it themselves the girl in the dress the boy with the doll isnt that just stereotyping. As to say the female with the chest hair or facial hair? So they arent a female because they have this? BEcause society says you dont look like afemale then you are not.
So now i get surgery and i look and act like one. But what the hell does a female look and act like anyways?
And if people should act as they feel and if they feel they need to look like a woman, whatever that means, but i am assuming its what society is accustomed to and dress like a woman, whatever that means and to get surgery to identify themselves as a woman, be injected with hormones that are female and every way possible that is fine and i wish them the most love and respect they deserve I never said i didnt.
I am assuming that T sees herself as wanting to be what society believes a woman should look, smell, dress, and feel like and you as well.
Please be happy and bless you all. i feel bad that a change so drastic is needed i wish you were all born the sex you are supposed to be that is a shame.
Live your life to the fullest and if some surgery makes you that immensely happy and thank someone for that amazing invention then damn i want a surgery too.
Or is simply the fact that you are just so unhappy beyond belief that you almost feel cursed that you werent born a female then i would be the first person to say please sweety get it done and i love and support you totally.


Because a person has a different opinion then yours doesnt mean they are disrespectful.
.

Its hard to equate it with other things.
You cant say well you have a big nose and you look terrible so lets fix that with the knife and your life will be so much better. Because many people never get the surgery and live a happy life with a big nose and others are almost always happy with the end results after the surgery so did those ones really want the surgery but were afraid to get the surgery or did they believe there was nothing wrong with themselves in the first place?
But hey if you feel their is something wrong with yourselves then get the surgery and i am sure it depends on the person as well.
GOOD LUCK to all.

 

[tribbles]

Etoile,

Part of the problem may be that even if someone has SRS and hormone tx and lives as a female, they still have the physical risks assoicated with having been born a male.

Prostate cancer does not happen to a female.

So when you imply someone has changed successfully from male to female, they didn't fully. Cuz at this time no one can.

The language doesn't exsist yet for a person who successfully goes thru a transistion to live and be as close as possible to the other sex physically.

I think the same way some object to using the word marriage for same sex couples, they object to the words male and female or man and woman when applied to someone who was born the opposite of what they live as now.

It's the words, not necessarily people objecting to your choices.

IMHO

 

[MyFriend27]

thanx

mostly prevalent reason is the cost of surgery. Most transgenders end up having to work low paying jobs and can never afford the SRS. Other reasons are unless your lucky enough to get a really good doctor there are risk that greatly outnumber the benefits of the surgeries, death, complete lose of feeling, poor quality looking neovaginas. I personally am undecided on whether i'll go through with SRS right now but the reason is the cost, and i'm gonna wait to see if medical science will end up finding something better for us.

Thank you and i want to know you have my full support.

 

[Tymeless]

I have the uttermost respect for people in general. And this is why i respect TYMELESS immensely. I support the transgender community and will always and a person has to be really unhappy with themselves and their body and sex to take such a drastic measure.

Happiness. As i said before you cant put a price on that.
Mental well being. Why would i even care to live life if i didnt have that ?

Yes i do respect a persons identity and think they should live their lives in anyway, sex, gender, they please. But your quote says a person is more than their arrangement of chromosomes but that is my point. If that is true, how does surgery change that? Unless you are saying that surgery can correct a person's gender.
But obviously this is a touchy subject. Amazing that i cant believe how touchy people get. WOW!
If i had a choice to be unhappy and live an unhappy life or get surgery and enjoy my life then i would choose the ladder i am just shocked that a surgery can make a person happy in this way and that was my point. To talk about killing oneself rather then living a certain way is just nuts. I just dont believe what defines a person is resolved in a painful surgery but maybe i am wrong. Since i am my own person i cant get into TYMELESS' minds or whomevers minds and feelings and understand how they feel. I cant identify true but i support. I guess it is born in the wrong body type of thing. Very deep indeed.
Part of my point was not out of disrespect at all. I think you jump way too easy. Part of my point is what really defines how a person is perceived as a woman? Why does a surgery make a person feel more femine then if she didnt get a surgery? Is it the hormones? IS it the implants? Is it really changing a persons body all that much anyways? If you feel a certain way about what sex you are how does surgery really change that? Many have said it themselves the girl in the dress the boy with the doll isnt that just stereotyping. As to say the female with the chest hair or facial hair? So they arent a female because they have this? BEcause society says you dont look like afemale then you are not.
So now i get surgery and i look and act like one. But what the hell does a female look and act like anyways?
And if people should act as they feel and if they feel they need to look like a woman, whatever that means, but i am assuming its what society is accustomed to and dress like a woman, whatever that means and to get surgery to identify themselves as a woman, be injected with hormones that are female and every way possible that is fine and i wish them the most love and respect they deserve I never said i didnt.
I am assuming that T sees herself as wanting to be what society believes a woman should look, smell, dress, and feel like and you as well.
Please be happy and bless you all. i feel bad that a change so drastic is needed i wish you were all born the sex you are supposed to be that is a shame.
Live your life to the fullest and if some surgery makes you that immensely happy and thank someone for that amazing invention then damn i want a surgery too.
Or is simply the fact that you are just so unhappy beyond belief that you almost feel cursed that you werent born a female then i would be the first person to say please sweety get it done and i love and support you totally.


Because a person has a different opinion then yours doesnt mean they are disrespectful.
.

Its hard to equate it with other things.
You cant say well you have a big nose and you look terrible so lets fix that with the knife and your life will be so much better. Because many people never get the surgery and live a happy life with a big nose and others are almost always happy with the end results after the surgery so did those ones really want the surgery but were afraid to get the surgery or did they believe there was nothing wrong with themselves in the first place?
But hey if you feel their is something wrong with yourselves then get the surgery and i am sure it depends on the person as well.
GOOD LUCK to all.

thank you my friend and i hope i have helped you understand transpeople in general. If it wasn't for people wanting to do mean and evil things to transpeople in general i would have no problems always identifying as a male to female transexual. After all its just words, and i'm just getting the body i want, but being classified as a transexual comes with risk and hard questions that need answered like which bathroom to use, etc use the womens room and they find out you have a penis the freak, use the mens room and you look like a woman and they freak.