Use of "guys" or "you guys" to address a group of women

[ElectricBlue]

The choices one has to make when one has become an old fart.

I know, it's shocking, innit, what we old farts have to put up with?

But hey, Burgers R Us, you get what you pay for, know what I mean?

Carry on .

 

[DouglasFinney]

I had to live in the Deep South for more than just a couple of years (it was where my job, unfortunately, happened to be).

I hated it there. The public services were sadly lacking; the private utilities were privateers; environmental protection was an oxymoron; I witnessed systemic racism firsthand; I repeatedly saw police officers violate the civil rights of people they were charged to protect; and the nearly unbearable humidity fused all the shit together into a wet hell where I never seemed completely dry.

When I finally left there I went northwest ahead of the moving truck with a woman who had come, like I had, from far away. It took four tanks of gas to reach the High Plains where stopped for a late breakfast. We sat at the bar. The bartender came over, wiped down the counter, and asked, “How are you guys doing?”

It surprised me how happy his salutation made me. I told him that we were doing awesome.

 

[JGittes]

I struggle with this.

I studied geology at university in the 90s, for four years in California and two in New Orleans. Study groups and field work teams were mixed genders, roughly 1/3 female and 2/3 male. The women were tough, mostly self-selected for loving outdoor work, and wouldn't take shit from anyone. The women nearly always referred to groups of people as 'you guys' regardless of gender composition. Of course, when the topic would come up in conversations, they'd also refer to their vulvas as cunts, and I've been told by several of my readers that women would never do that.

The problem comes when it's men who are speaking. I find it rather easy to tell when a male uses 'you guys' to deliberately exclude or subtly demean the women in the group. In my opinion, they deserve derision. There were men who clearly were inclusive when trying to speak to the group and no one thought anything of it. Y'all or all y'all, are wonderful gender-neutral referents to groups if a story is set in the south or has a clearly southern character in the story. New Orleans is also the only place I've ever heard the saying 'For shits and giggles.' It was used only by women and I have a vague idea of what the hell that means, but no idea how it may have evolved to mean what it means.

Something else to consider is what would be the alternative to 'you guys?' I've heard women talking to other women address the collective as guys, you guys, girls, gals, and even once after a grueling field day and a few beers at the Snake Pit, 'Hey you bitches, shut up.' Whatever women choose to call each other is, by definition, proper, native English usage and depending on the setting could be appropriate. Men using similar language is difficult at best. Calling mixed gender groups 'people' has a military flavor to it that implies a chain of command, giving orders tone.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The women nearly always referred to groups of people as 'you guys' regardless of gender composition. ...
The problem comes when it's men who are speaking. I find it rather easy to tell when a male uses 'you guys' to deliberately exclude or subtly demean the women in the group. In my opinion, they deserve derision. There were men who clearly were inclusive when trying to speak to the group and no one thought anything of it.

This. My female friends would ask "Guys?" to a group of us, back in the 80s when it was still a bit transgressive to do so. For the last 20 years I wouldn't be surprised when male friends did the same, but in the office I'd expect a manager or Director trying to get everyone's attention to say "Everyone?" or "Listen up, everybody!". But as JGittes says, in itself it wouldn't jar as sexist, just that men who are hoping to exclude the women will go for a phrasing like 'you guys'.

I've never heard 'got us by the short hairs' before though - always 'the short and curlies'. I was briefly wondering whether it was a plot about holding cats hostage...

 

[oggbashan]

Have to disagree with Ogg here - I'm from the UK and 'you guys' would be fine with a group of ladies. It may be an age related thing.

At this point, I'd write the controversy into the story - have the prim new recruit to the harem complain about its usage.

I wasn't speaking for the whole of the UK, just my locality. That is why I started by saying it depends on context and locality.

'You guys' wouldn't be said by anyone I know. 'Guys' would not refer to a group of people, male, female or mixed.

Neither would 'You all' or 'you'll' be used.

Most of my friends and acquaintances are middle class with a higher level of education in English. Most can speak one or two foreign languages as well. Why not?

I can get to France quicker than I can to London and until this year and the P & O troubles, people would go to France for shopping or just an evening meal in a French Restaurant. Current cross channel costs now make both expensive. Last year one could get a day return crossing for a vehicle and up to five people for £5. Now? Over £100.


My builder has a cottage in Northern France that he uses about once a month. He, his wife and his children are all fluent in French.

I see no problem with a character in a story using the term 'you guys' even if none of my characters ever would.

Edited for PS: My friends who are European, African, Indian, Asian, Japanese, Chinese etc learned English as a second (third, fourth...) language when adults and tend to be more grammatically correct and precise than a native English speaker even in conversations. None would ever use 'you guys'.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

In all my life, I have not heard a woman refer to other women as 'guys' unless it was a mixed crowd. Women usually use 'ladies' or 'girls' to address a group of women, unless of course they are all woke transgenders then they might use 'them', 'they' pronouns. But from your description I have to assume they are all of the female gender, so, 'ladies' or 'girls' would be the appropriate response.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I wasn't speaking for the whole of the UK, just my locality. ...
'You guys' wouldn't be said by anyone I know. 'Guys' would not refer to a group of people, male, female or mixed.

For reference, I'm from southern England, about an hour's drive from Ogg, but about 30 years younger.

The age probably makes the difference - I think it was early 90s that 'guys' became a popular term including by girls (eg me in all-girls 6th form, age 17-18) - before that 'guy' was still a little insulting, being a comparison to a guy for a bonfire (ie an effigy of Guy Fawkes, made by stuffing old clothes and adding a head). I'm not sure when 'guy' became a neutral term for a man here, rather than a dismissive term or a clear Americanism.

Reminds me of my American parent asking me to explain the difference between a guy, a bloke, a lad and a geezer...

 

[XerXesXu]

I'm not sure when 'guy' became a neutral term for a man here, rather than a dismissive term or a clear Americanism.

At least the 50s, probably an adopted Americanism.

 

[oggbashan]

As I have said above, although I would never use it, I see no problem with a character in a story using the expression.

 

[MrPixel]

... Haven't gotten any complaints from calling guys "Sir," though.

Until recently, I would have objected, "Uh, my father was 'sir'. I'm Mike." I'm old now, so "sir" doesn't bother me quite as much.

 

[Maxiine]

Nothing sets my wife off more than being addressed as "you guys."

"So, cunt"...okay?
"Hey, you guys"...bad?
Oh well, to each their own...

 

[KeithD]

"So, cunt"...okay?
"Hey, you guys"...bad?
Oh well, to each their own...

I don't see where reporting my wife's reaction to the term should in any way prompt a questioning of my own view of the thread topic. I go with it being a term in use across genders, so I'd use it in character dialogue if it went with the character. But I try not to use it when speaking myself so as not to get a dirty look from my wife (unless I want to invoke a dirty look from my wife). It seems to be in common use in the States by waiters in restaurants, no matter how much it irritates my wife, it seems to be acceptable in prose. I see no reason to be drawn into your challenge. I didn't express a personal opinion until now.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

I am writing a serial about a "modern harem", and in conversation the characters frequently address two or more of the others, usually ladies, as "guys" or "you guys". On proofreading a just-completed chapter, C (my spouse) threw a small fit with her red pen, calling out my conversational use of "guys" when addressing a gathered group of the ladies. Such as:



You get the gist. C says it's offensive to women, Merriam-Webster defines it in sense 1b as "used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex". Other online dictionaries say something similar, that "guys" is a plural for a group, to which I add, "usually familiar". I'd check OED, but I don't have a subscription.

To submit to C's point of view I would have a buttload of editing to do to purge "guys" or otherwise reduce the use of it. However, I don't want to overuse "you ladies" too much to represent the same sense of familiarity, nor "you girls"; the former can be a little stuffy in playful banter, the latter a little diminishing. The ladies are the protagonist's best of friends as well as his lovers, so "you guys" certainly works for me.

What say ye?

Okay, so….

Folks,

Y’all,

Everyone,

Everybody,

Team,

Throng,

Gang,

Group,

People,

Peeps,

Ladies,

Gals,

That’s what I can come up with for now off the top of my head.

 

[Maxiine]

Not a challenge. I thought my response was funny. But, I'm an odd old bitch.

 

[Cali_Love]

Your wife is always right.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not a challenge. I thought my response was funny. But, I'm an odd old bitch.

I laughed .

 

[yowser]

In certain parts of New York, amongst persons of a certain age, you would hear: 'youse guys.' Sex/gender wouldn't matter in the slightest.

Of course, you could also explore American second person plural addressing customs with this dialect quiz map.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Bottom line seems to be… a classic ‘it depends’.

FWIW, any linkage between ‘guys’, the late Mr Fawkes and yhe popular annual burning of his effigy is pretty thin on this side of the Pond.

 

[oggbashan]

Bottom line seems to be… a classic ‘it depends’.

FWIW, any linkage between ‘guys’, the late Mr Fawkes and yhe popular annual burning of his effigy is pretty thin on this side of the Pond.

In the UK, calling an individual a 'guy' without any adjective such as a 'nice guy' could be a criticism of his dress sense - he looks like a Guy Fawkes dummy in shapeless old clothes.

That doesn't apply in the plural.

 

[shakna]

To add to what electricblue66 said on regionalism within Aus: "Guys" is a gender neutral term, but it tends to be a very familiar term as well. Well suited for a sit down with your peers, poorly suited to a business meeting. Groups of women under the age of 45 will regularly use it to refer to themselves. "Guys, wanna grab a drink?"

However, there is one small region of Australia that would be offended by its usage, and that'd be in Far North Queensland. The FNQers tend to be more... Easy to provoke, than the average Australian. However, rather than leading to use of other gender-neutral terms, it leads to use of more feminine terms. Common everywhere, but more common in FNQ, men will refer to groups of themselves in a gently ribbing way, such as, "Hey ladies, wanna grab a drink?", even if not a single woman is present.

(Oh, and "ma'am" or "sir" are generally reserved for being insulting in Aus, too, except in FNQ where they're terms of respect. We gots a thing about hating authority.)

 

[XerXesXu]

men will refer to groups of themselves in a gently ribbing way, such as, "Hey ladies, wanna grab a drink?", even if not a single woman is present.

(Oh, and "ma'am" or "sir" are generally reserved for being insulting in Aus, too, except in FNQ where they're terms of respect. We gots a thing about hating authority.)

In the UK also - a laddish behaviour. British English is less deferential than American. 'Sir' is a pupil to a male teacher, other ranks to an officer or a male member of the public about to be pinged by a constable for a minor infraction, or a knight. Tagalog is very respectful, but the respect marker Po is used to enoble in Taglish. I am now Sir Xerxes.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

In the UK, calling an individual a 'guy' without any adjective such as a 'nice guy' could be a criticism of his dress sense - he looks like a Guy Fawkes dummy in shapeless old clothes.

That doesn't apply in the plural.

Understood. I've watched one or two. My point was that the whole Guy Fawkes bonfire thing is not a North American custom and any objection to the term 'guy' over here is unlikely to have anything to do with the would-be bomber or his ill-clad dummies.

 

[shakna]

In the UK also - a laddish behaviour. British English is less deferential than American. 'Sir' is a pupil to a male teacher, other ranks to an officer or a male member of the public about to be pinged by a constable for a minor infraction, or a knight. Tagalog is very respectful, but the respect marker Po is used to enoble in Taglish. I am now Sir Xerxes.

Australia tends to go a bit further than that (apart from FNQ). A teacher being called 'sir' will assume you're being a sarcastic little shit, even if you say it genuinely. (Teachers should be addressed by title + family name, generally). But good point on the military side of things - there it's usage is drilled into you.

 

[stickygirl]

My generation u30 would never give a thought to an association between Guy Fawkes and guys. I think it was adopted in the UK in the 2000s as an expression women would use to a group of women such a fitness coaches. I think men were a bit wary of using it initially, but now when I attend sailing conferences it's quite normal to mixed groups. It's gender neutral, power neutral, informal and quick to use. I use it all the time in college/work/sport situations.

 

[oggbashan]

Except in places that have a long Guy Fawkes tradition such as Lewes in Sussex which has several bonfire societies, Halloween has overtaken Guy Fawkes in the public (and commercial) sector.

Supermarket aisles are crammed with Halloween products but sales of fireworks are much more low key and surrounded by so many precautions that put buyers off.