USS Winston Churchill....

[OUTSIDER]

for reasons too long and boring to write about hear I do not agree with a federal Europe, and before some smartass jumps in and says thats not what the Germany's and French are after....FUCK OFF...you know thats exactly what their after only they won't say so because every time they do the people of Britain stand up and threaten to pull out of th EU. Don't get me wrong I'm all for peace and free trade but I don't want to be ruled from Brussel's.

 

[genderbender]

Let's all sing "We are the World"! Unification can't be that bad can it? What do you think, all those from the U.S.A.?
One step at a time ...

I second MP's sentiments. I think there's nothing to cheer about when other countries have the misfortune of buying the crap American is selling. For all of the good things about this country, our unbridled capitalism is probably our worst feature. For all of the faults of the labor/left governments in Britain, your efforts to provide a semblance of justice through your social welfare system is far superior to anything Ameica has ever attempted. It will be a sad day when Great Britain and Europe succumb to the me-first selfishness of American capitalism. I pray that Social Democrats in governments of Europe are able to maintain some balance between the need to stimulate economic growth and to meet their citizens' legitimate needs for education, housing, health and welfare security.

 

[Charly]

I don't know too much about the War of Independence.I understand that Benedict Arnold defected,so to speak,but didn't he do some good stuff before.Anyway,why did he.

Arnold, if memory serves me decided to go over to the other side (the british royalist side) and exchange information about Washington's whereabouts and disposition at West Point. He was willing to trade for a commission in the British army. His perfidy was uncovered because of a message he wrote that was recovered.

Maybe there is someone out there who will correct my history. But I sort of remember it that way. I believe that he actually presented himself to Washington unaware that his letter to the british commander had been found.

 

[Charly]

I used to be a card carrying Communist. I am no Maggie Thatcher fan. I would like to point out however, that the mining and manufacturing industries had been heavily subsidised in GB prior to Maggie's iron rule. The demise of these industries was part of a world wide economic trend (cheaper offshore labour, nuclear power etc.) which affected the entire Western world, including Australia. There has been another downturn in the coal mining and steel industries here recently with thousands losing their jobs. It is lack of world demand rather than government bloodymindedness which has caused this. That said, Maggie lacked compassion and foresight when handling the entire situation. Only slightly better than working class herself, she should have known better. The "All power..." thing? Or, perhaps people with too much ego and too little real understanding of the world are drawn to politics in the first place. That's my theory.

In the seventies and early eighties, the entire western world industry with it's aging and mass production mentality was being beaten utterly and completely by. It seemed doomed to domination by the new Japanese way of looking at production.

We have truly reversed the situation by adapting their lean manufacturing concepts and doing them better.

That is true compassion! Just as the old story of give a man a fish to eat and you have fed him for a day, give him a fishing pole and hook and you have made him rich.

 

[p_p_man]

Europe (inter alia)

With Europe we are seeing the birth of a new nation and nations are not born without going through the traditional ordeal by fire. I have been a European for as long as I've been a member of the old Liberal Party (remember them?) and it made sense to me then as it does today that in a world which is vying for economic domination (not my idea but we have to play with the cards we're dealt with) the only way forward for a country such as the UK is to enter into and actively take part in a pan european movement which will serve European interests. The movement, which has had full joint diplomatic consultaion on European issues since the '70s, has now progressed into monetary union, some joint miltary co-operation, the beginning of social integration and should, if nothing changes its course, develop into full one country status. I'm not talking about today or even tomorrow but certainly, I hope, within the next fifty years. These things take time.

It is the them and us attitude I find particularly irritating. Sometimes I think that the people of the UK forget that we too have our representatives in Brussels and Luxembourg, we too have our beaurocrats beavering away on the mainland and we too help fill the senior posts (the European Comissioners). Whose fault is it if sometimes we find ourselves being subjected to rulings from Brussels which we don't agree with. It can only be ours if the representatives we send are not strong enough to stand up and be counted. It's sad but I feel they regard their time in Europe as a gravy train which is their's to exploit not to ensure that new legislation works in the best interests of the UK. If we continue to treat the European movement like a club that we can always threaten to leave if we don't like the way they play the game, we are only going to help foster the mistrust and contempt of the UK that is so prevalent at the moment.

We are not yet fully committed to something we already belong to, and who wants a team member who does the minimum to stay on the team but no more.

Europe is already becoming one of the strongest ecnomic blocks in the world and it already has a stronger and more confident voice at the negotiating table. And don't let's forget the monetary help that flows from Europe into the UK's depressed and needy areas and all the other benefits we receive which affect all aspects of our society. And please don't let's forget the Irish Republic where their wole-hearted support of the European Union has regenerated an entire country. Has anyone been to Dublin recently?

This was going to be a short reply but I tend to get carried away. I was going to mention Maggie Thatcher (she of the staring eyes; the use of the royal we, "We have a grandchild"; the fact that she was so besotted by her father and his political thinking that it was he who really governed Britain during those dark years of her administration. That he had been born in the 1800s, and the world of his politics was not the world of modern day politics (remember her ridiculous "Victorian values" stand -brushing aside child prostitution, destitution, starvation, work houses, disease etc - most of which were chronicled by Charles Dickens in his writings and concentrating instead on snow at Christmas, and whiter than white snow at that; well brought up young ladies, gentlemen who were...well gentlemen, the might of the British Empire against all those funny foreigners and an Englishman's word was his bond). That was the philosophy she was raised on at her father's knee and that was the philosophy she tried to drag the UK back into.

Thank God for the men in grey suits who got rid of her in the end...

[See I had to force myself to stop there else I would have continued for many more pages contributing to this excellent thread. After all I haven't mentioned Churchill yet, who incidentally was a supporter of a more integrated Europe. SHUT UP! GO TO BED!...]

 

[CRaZy]

Yes I've seen the Republic of Ireland recently. Thriving on EU money. Well done. I'll cheer even more heartily when I see Romania and Bulgaria getting the help they need. (Don't give me the story about corrupt governments, the need for co-operation etc. etc.) The EU could put pressure on the ex-totalitarian goons who now run these countries in a different guise if they REALLY wanted to.

I'm sure the Americans on the BB have seen sharp economic contrasts between South America and the US. The saddest, most distinct contrast I have ever seen was on the border between Bulgaria and Greece. The fields on the Bulgarian side of the river were being ploughed by old people with a wooden hand plough. You cross a bridge and there on the Greek side of the river was a combine harvester. The Greek government is corrupt. The Italian governement is corrupt. The Swiss are bloody corrupt but cover up well. Don't tell me Bulgaria and Romania don't deserve EU assistance.

 

[Flagg]

Oh dear. Whenever I hear the same old rants about "not wanting to be governed by Brussels" or "France and Germany want to rule the world", I know that I am speaking to people who have no, and I really do mean "no" grasp whatsoever about European politics. The mindset being displayed here is one of complete shallowness, a lack of education, and a belief-system instilled by tabloid propoganda. (Was that condescending enough?)

I find the American opinion on the further integration of Europe quite an interesting one. It is clear that it is not in the American interest for Europe to become either a military, economic or political force. Not wanting to be confrontational, the reason behind this is simply that a fully integrated Europe would become the new "superpower". I can't say I really care about this particular point but the truth remains that the US is understandbly eneasy about this prospect. When the EU decided to form a "rapid reaction force" for example, the US in no uncertain terms opposed it.

As for British eurosceptics, the problem is a more complex one. Even though the whole concept of an "island-culture" is somewhat over used, there probably is some truth to it. We are well protected physically, we possess sufficient natural resources, we have a recent history of war within "the continent" and we really are very "English". The "English" differ from their european counterparts in a lot of ways. We are a relatively apathetic nation, (Productivity per capita is aproximately 30% lower in the UK than in the US, Germany and France) we have no written constitution and a relatively archaic political system which still despairingly relies to some degree on non-elected bodies. And most of all we are set in our ways. Despite having a rather passive monarchy and a relatively republican population, the idea of losing the Queen's head on our currency suddenly turns us all in to absolute royalists, demanding that the Queen's head be respected - the first of many a parodox.

We hate the idea of EU regulations and are proud to defy them in our local butchers and grocery stores. To be fined and to lose one's business over refusal to comply to metric measurements makes us a hero, a martyr to the British cause. And yet ... When any other EU nation breaches European law in a way that affects us, we are outraged and angrily brandish the EU Rule book with shouts of "It just isn't cricket!"

Many eurosceptic arguments are are absolute rubbish. A favourite in the local pub is the fact that "those bloody Europeans - they're telling us that our cucumbers aren't allowed to be bendy now - what a farce!". Oh poor disillusioned souls - if only they knew that one of their most favourite rants was actually legislation put in place by the British Food Standards Committee in 1967 - before we even joined the Common Market.

By joining the Common Market, Britain opened itself up to a new wonderful cosmopolitan world of culture and trade. No longer do we have to sit dispondently in a hotel restaurant faced by a plate of prawns in thousand island dressing. We export more, we travel more, we understand our neighbours more and even (heavens forbid) we are embracing their languages, customs, cultures and arts.

It seems clear to me that Europe is a good thing. As someone else has pointed out, there is no need to jump the gun and presume we are headed for a Federal Europe by next Tuesday. This is a long drawn out process that needs to be worked out slowly and carefully. The bureaucracy that is so often complained about is, if you think about, necessary. For dozens of countries to work out ways for them to be able to talk, trade, fight and legislate together in a way that is beneficial to all, its going to take time.

Britain is a very small place. Its about time it opened its boundaries.

 

[Ally C]

It will be a sad day when Great Britain and Europe succumb to the me-first selfishness of American capitalism.

I think those who can already have. I guess that's why there are less card-carrying communists around these days. I think that we are just seeing human nature at its most base, capitalism being a catalyst which reinforces all that's worst about our species. I know what you mean genderbender, but Fordism [and post-Fordism!] apart, I would hesitate to define the phenomenom as 'American capitalism'. It would probably make a good name for a warship mind you ...

 

[p_p_man]

Hear! Hear!

Originally posted by Flagg
"Britain is a very small place. Its about time it opened its boundaries."

To be written in stone.

 

[Ally C]

In the seventies and early eighties, the entire western world industry with it's aging and mass production mentality was being beaten utterly and completely by. It seemed doomed to domination by the new Japanese way of looking at production.

We have truly reversed the situation by adapting their lean manufacturing concepts and doing them better.

That is true compassion! Just as the old story of give a man a fish to eat and you have fed him for a day, give him a fishing pole and hook and you have made him rich.

Now what was it I just posted about human nature? As for the nice bright oil-painting on stainless steel canvas painted by Charly above, I think that it's a bit hopeful and should remain 'Untitled'. Industry is so lean and mean that it now takes a fraction of the time and effort to strip the world of its resources and fill the void with waste. And there was me thinking someone had dropped some litter in the gallery.
As for giving a man a fishing rod and making him rich, well that's rich too. I appreciate the humanitarian origins of this expression. Having said that, we all know the man will catch more fish than he needs. He'll sell his surplus and make a profit. He'll trade up to a small inshore vessel and give his rod to one of his sons to play with. He'll apply for and get funding toward the cost of a new-build super trawler. He'll make his fortune. The fish stocks will be on the verge of collapse. He'll foolishly head out to sea against international law and fish anyway. With a bit of luck our friend, the good ship "U.S.S. Winston Churchill" will do more than fire a few warning shots across his bows.

Meanwhile, in a land far away, all the inhabitants had fishing rods and co-existed in harmony. Or at least that's what Marx would have wanted.

 

[mig]

Did someone mention Winston Churchill?.What,s he got to do with it.

 

[Ally C]

It was only a matter of time before the covert irony became ever so one-lined and overt. Go to the poop deck mig, do not pass "go", do not collect $200 ...

 

[CRaZy]

In response to Ally C's comment about card carrying communists, (because I daren't quote in case I exceed a certain unwritten length expectation) the reason why there are fewer is that it simply didn't work. There was an underlying assumption that people would work for the common good without individual incentives. Having seen communism at work first hand in China, I became aware that man is indeed a selfish creature. If someone is going to get fed regardless of the amount of work they do (each according to his ability, each according to his need) they will tend to do the minimum required. Sadly, it is the incentive of more food, more money etc. for the individual that makes most of us go that extra mile.

The only answer is a system which falls somewhere between laissez faire capitalism and the welfare state. Man is a capitalist by nature I think. The second the Chinese government relaxed its policies, the Chinese embraced market capitalism and the stock exchange like they had been doing it all their lives.

 

[Ally C]

In response to Ally C's comment about card carrying communists, (because I daren't quote in case I exceed a certain unwritten length expectation) the reason why there are fewer is that it simply didn't work. There was an underlying assumption that people would work for the common good without individual incentives. Having seen communism at work first hand in China, I became aware that man is indeed a selfish creature. If someone is going to get fed regardless of the amount of work they do (each according to his ability, each according to his need) they will tend to do the minimum required. Sadly, it is the incentive of more food, more money etc. for the individual that makes most of us go that extra mile.

The only answer is a system which falls somewhere between laissez faire capitalism and the welfare state. Man is a capitalist by nature I think. The second the Chinese government relaxed its policies, the Chinese embraced market capitalism and the stock exchange like they had been doing it all their lives.

Exactly what I said, but without the quote. I think it was Hobbes who once said: "Nature hath made man equal in the faculties of the body and mind ... [not exactly, but enough to kill one another] ... by secret machination, or confederacy with others". Welcome to the jungle ...

 

[Ally C]

unwritten length expectation

It wasn't written - there is a difference.

I don't expect, but your country does.

Join the navy.

You never know, you might get to see the U.S.S. "Winston Churchill" up close.

 

[p_p_man]

threading my way through...

What's all this about card carrying communists. Does it mean that if they don't carry cards they're good honest folk fighting with God on their side but if they do they're in league with the Devil?

A communist is a communist is a communist for a' that.

 

[Ally C]

Re: threading my way through...

What's all this about card carrying communists. Does it mean that if they don't carry cards they're good honest folk fighting with God on their side but if they do they're in league with the Devil?

No, it means they are fully paid up and active members of a cause. As opposed to the middle class [often academic] 'communist' who likes to thumb their nose at the world order from the comfort of their safe little worlds. It's a common enough expression, I would have thought you would have came across and assimilated its meaning by now?

 

[p_p_man]

No, it means they are fully paid up and active members of a cause. As opposed to the middle class [often academic] 'communist' who likes to thumb their nose at the world order from the comfort of their safe little worlds. It's a common enough expression, I would have thought you would have came across and assimilated its meaning by now? [/B]

OUCH!

 

[Ally C]

3 strikes, am I out?

OUCH!

That's three times I've done that today. Perhaps I should join the trend for "Good Morning" threads and steer clear of controversy?

nah ...

 

[alexander tzara]

What, you mean there are stories here?

Shit! Still not got the hang of this.

 

[Flagg]

LOL!

 

[SweetNick]

Umm, ok, so I've not read all 7 pages, just the first about the papers. I've read Gilbert's Churchill books, as well as the compilation of letters, notes, papers, and correspondences that he's put together. None bear out him being in bed with "the devil".

 

[Skibum]

Re: Nothing to do with a foreign person

[/B]

But it has to do with (as you pointed out) naming a ship after a French fort. Actually, it is the fifth ship to be named Ticonderoga.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The entire class of guided missle cruisers, of which the Tico was the lead ship, is named for historic American battlefields. Some of them (Anzio, for example) are battlefields in foreign countries where American fighting men distinguished themselves. Ticondaroga is a very apt name for an American warship, as it was the site of one of our first victories over our colonial oppressors (My apologies to our friends across the pond. You actually stopped oppressing us a long time ago!).

 

[Skibum]

C'mon, skibum! You'd have a problem with the USS Josef Stalin?

You could say that!

 

[Ally C]

A rose by any other name ...

... as long as it isn't 'Red'.