What exactly was the original sin?

[Oliver Clozoff]

I have no issue with you standing up for your beliefs or "acting atheist" to use your analogy. There are plenty of people here at this site who are atheist and represent the position well, notably Dixon Carter Lee. I never fail to be impressed by confidence he holds in his beliefs coupled with his ability to empathize with others who hold a quite different belief.

The question asked was "what is original sin in the Judeo-Christian creation story". You're obviously a very intelligent person and very highly educated. I suspect you know what the poster meant by his question.

Sorry if I have offended. This is the last I'll post.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"Original Sin" is a very distinct and specific phrase that has nothing to do with the apple or the nature of individual thought -- it's the sin we're born with because of how we were given life: procreation through sexual intercourse. Adam and Eve escaped original sin because they were created outright. Only one other person has ever been born withoutOriginal sin, and that was he who came to rid the world of sin -- Jesus Christ, Son of God. Born of a Virgin.







[Edited by Dixon Carter Lee on 04-07-2001 at 11:28 PM]

 

[MinkSoul]

so.... why the apple and the Snake in Genisis?

 

[Mischka]

Re: OK Thanks...

...it's just that I met someone last night who ventured the opinion that the original sin was Eve having children and that explained the celibacy of the Catholic Church.

Just made me think is all...

I don't have the source to back me up, but I remember reading that Catholic priests became celibate to gain credibility. They didn't start out as celibates, but after a little too much corruption in the ranks, the people began to lose faith in their lack of piety, and the coffers became unacceptably light. So the celibacy move was a marketing ploy to get the people and their money back in the church, with the original sin spin added as an afterthought.

(If anyone can back me up or disprove this, I'd be enormously thankful.)

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

What do you mean why the snake and apple in Genesis? Cause they're there.

The snake (a "serpent" actually, a manifestation of a devil, not the devil, not as he comes to be known in the New Testament -- the fallen angel stuff comes later) is temptation and the apple is knoweldge (without humility). It's an allegorical tale about the origin of man's fallability and need for redemption -- not neccessarily the beginning of sin. "Original Sin" does not refer to the "First" sin of all time, but the "First" sin of each individual person. It's the sin we're each born with.

 

[MinkSoul]

i found this...

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

original sin


in Christian theology, the sin of Adam, by which all humankind fell from divine grace. Saint Augustine was the fundamental theologian in the formulatiom of this doctrine, which states that the essentially graceless nature of humanity requires redemption to save it. The purpose of baptism is to wash away original sin and to restore the individual to an innocent state, although even after baptism a tendency to sin remains as a result of original sin.


E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Original Sin.

That corruption which is born with us, and is the inheritance of all the offspring of Adam. As Adam was the federal head of his race, when Adam fell the taint and penalty of his disobedience passed to all his posterity.



to me that goes back to the 'apple'...

 

[Pyper]

"Original Sin" is a very distinct and specific phrase that has nothing to do with the apple or the nature of individual thought -- it's the sin we're born with because of how we were given life: procreation through sexual intercourse. Adam and Eve escaped original sin because they were created outright. Only one other person has ever been born withoutOriginal sin, and that was he who came to rid the world of sin -- Jesus Christ, Son of God. Born of a Virgin.

No, no. Mary was also born without original sin. The Immaculate Conception refers to her conception, not the conception of Jesus, as is commonly thought.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You're right. That's true. I forgot about Mary.

And the above regarding the apple refers to what happened to humanity after the apple, after Adam's actions, not what the apple did. The sins of the father are visited upon the children. And this sin is passed to us through the act of sex.

 

[MinkSoul]

i found a strange passage...

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, Rev. 22.14 and eat, and live for ever:



who's 'us'?


second one is eye opening...

 

[Pyper]

Heeeey, that is creepy. Do you think God is just the god of this planet, and every planet with intelligent life has a god like in DragonballZ and this is my cue to shut up because I've started talking about cartoons in a Bible thread.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"God", who created Adam and Even and Abraham, as a Deity, Supreme Being and all around omnipresent force changed dramtacially in concept, temperment and interpretation from Genesis to Revelations (with a slight Detour through the Koran). You can't look on Jesus' God as the same fellow who spoke to Noah.

"Us" is God, in the old sense. I Am Who Am. The apha and the omega. God is all. We are God. God is the air.

In that particular phrase I believe it's understood that angels inhabited the heavenly sphere long before Man was created, and they possess the knowledge of right and wrong. God is speaking to the Heavenly Host, which is, also, Him.

 

[Pyper]

Yeah, but what about Dragonball Z?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Dragonball Z was what the Devil made Jesus watch for the first 39 days in the desert before promising him all the good shit.

 

[MinkSoul]

hehehe....no....don't shut up...

hmmm... i hadn't thought of it that way...


i was thinking The Lord was talking to the Angels...


but your post would explain the geocentric universe they used to beleave...

 

[MinkSoul]

but that second line i underlined....

First.... i thought it was the tree of knowledge..... Oops....Wrong there BuffaloFartBreath (me)...

Second.... i thought Adam had taken from the tree...

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No. The gift of eternal life didn't come until Christ's crucifixion on the cross, miserable death, descent into Hell, ressurection and ascension.

Seems like God could have saved everyone a hell lot of trouble if He'd just given us the damn apple on Day One.

 

[Pyper]

This always confused me: if eternal life didn't come till after Jeezus, does that mean all those poor Hebrews who went through all that stuff like wandering in the desert for 40 years aren't in heaven? They just died?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No. They were stuck in Hell. That's why Jesus descended into Hell first, before ascending to Heaven. He showed up at Satan's door with the ultimate Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes Prize.

"Free at last! Free at last! Thank me almighty, you're free at last!"

 

[Pyper]

Hold on a minute now...so, before Jesus, everybody since the dawn of creation was stuck in Hell? God is such a jerk! ::furtively looks around for other BB members who would take this last comment as evidence that she has it out for Christianity::

 

[MinkSoul]

didn't they go to Limbo?

untell the construction work was done in Heaven...


hmmm.... my slow brain just had a thought (It's a Miracle....hallalulia)...


if Adam had gotten to the tree >>> eternal life With a body.... might get a bit crowded....

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

LOL

Well, yeah, that's the theory. But, you have to remember that this is the Christian way of looking at the things. All this theology came later. The Jews didn't have a Hell.

 

[MinkSoul]

Hold on a minute now...so, before Jesus, everybody since the dawn of creation was stuck in Hell? God is such a jerk! ::furtively looks around for other BB members who would take this last comment as evidence that she has it out for Christianity::

Does that mean you Beleave in God?



just wondering...

 

[lazarus UK]

Try Dante's Inferno

Righteous heathens get the First Circle

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Um -- why are the atheists keeping this thread alive? LOL

 

[Pyper]

The Jews didn't have a Hell.

I've been trying to tell Todd that all night. He actually had me wondering if I was right, but ah ha, DCL has confirmed it.