What is femdom agitprop?

[Djmac1031]

I'm all for women action heroes, 100%.
And I'm all for creating more of them.
But it has to be done RIGHT."

I just knew you were going to start whining after that last sentence.

You aren't going to like it but I am about to be honest with you. Literally, no one cares. Oh sure, there are other whiny men out there who have the same views and spend all their time mansplaining why Hollywood is ruining the world by including women and minorities in traditional white male spaces but NO ONE except for you and those vocal manbabies care.

Just for ONCE I would love one of you disingenuous assholes be honest because your bitching and moaning isn't about artistic integrity, quality of movie etc. You don't give a fuck if Rey was a Mary Sue (and she was BTW, didn't think I would agree?) You care she was the lead, period. Even if Rey had the same trajectory as Luke, you would still ask why Rey had to be a woman.

What sticks in your ass is the fact that you spent your life watching movies with leads that looked like you. Their culture was like yours. Their beliefs were like yours. You could imagine being them. Well, times have changed and if you want to watch a movie, you are going to be confronted with that change. You no longer see the type of characters you want and it PISSES YOU OFF.
Tough shit. Seriously. Tough shit and grow up.

We have been watching the same fucking movies as you for just as long, accepting scraps here and there when it comes to representation. The best we could hope for was small budget/Indy films. Hollywood blockbusters were far and few.

Well, we are getting some attention now. Too fucking bad.

And yes, some examples are pure shit. You Pandering is absolutely a problem but your claim that it is your only complaint, is hollow. You want movies the way they have always been and expect us to either deal with it or make our own shit.

Oh wait, we do and you STILL bitch which is exactly my point.

Well sorry buddy. Let me tell you what I heard so very often growing up, "if you don't like it, don't watch it"

Wow. You really jumped to some assumptions there.

Did you actually read my post?

You care she was the lead, period. Even if Rey had the same trajectory as Luke, you would still ask why Rey had to be a woman.

Please demonstrate where I said that. Because I didn't. I actually enjoy Rey as a character.

My only problem was making her related to Palpatine when they should have left her her own identity.

You no longer see the type of characters you want and it PISSES YOU OFF.
Tough shit. Seriously. Tough shit and grow up.

Again please point out exactly where I said that instead of attaching your own assumptions to my words.

I'll wait.

And yes, some examples are pure shit. You Pandering is absolutely a problem but your claim that it is your only complaint, is hollow. You want movies the way they have always been and expect us to either deal with it or make our own shit.

More assumptions, backed up by literally nothing I said.

Your jumping down the wrong person's throat here.

Read the first sentence of my post again.

I can be both supportive of strong women in film and critical of how some films have handled it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Rey (headcanon aroace, fuck Ep. 9) is a great new character and anyone who disses her is a whiny crybaby.

OK, I'll bite and be a whiny crybaby.

Rey is a boring Mary Sue. The idea of rebooting Luke Skywalker in the third trilogy as a woman was a fine idea. That's basically what the movie makers decided to do. Fine. Nice idea. Daisy Ridley is a fine actress and the character had a lot of potential. But her character has fatal flaws from a dramatic standpoint:

1. She has no sense of humor. This has been a problem with the Star Wars movies since the first trilogy. There's no fun. It's too serious. In the initial trilogy, there was a wink-wink fun sensibility, which is crucial, because unless you have no sense whatsoever, you realize that the whole thing is ridiculous and shouldn't be taken too seriously. Princess Leia watched her home planet get blown up, but she still had plenty of funny lines. Same with Han Solo. The movie makers understood that the best way for Star Wars to work was for it not to be taken too seriously. They completely forgot that when the franchise was restarted 20 years ago. Rey has no humor at all. I can't think of a single funny line she has. Everything is in deadly earnest. Yawn.

2. She's unusually, naturally force sensitive. That's fine. So was Luke. But it took Luke three movies to be able to face and defeat Darth Vader. He had growth to do, doubts to overcome, something that's essential for a good character arc. Rey beats Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel by the end of the first movie, after having had no time to master the skills, unlike Kylo Ren, who has spent years becoming a Sith master. Dumb. It's dumb, lazy movie writing. Classic Mary Sue stuff.

3. Is there any interesting growth or character development with Rey? I don't see any. As a character, she's dull as dishwater. Same thing with Finn and Poe. Lots of potential, nothing realized. Part of the problem is that Rian Johnson in the second movie subverted everything JJ Abrams did in the first movie, and then JJ Abrams, when he took over for the third movie, undid everything Johnson did. So it's a huge narrative mess.

It's too bad, because there was a lot of potential for Rey, and Daisy Ridley is very appealing.

 

[AlinaX]

OK, I'll bite and be a whiny crybaby.

Rey is a boring Mary Sue.

1. ~ glares angrily ~
2. She barely survives confrontation with an injured and emotionally unstable Kylo. Kylo is the biggest problem with the entire trilogy because he's a spoilt brat with too much power and no discipline, and despite being unforgivably evil gets turned into some kind of romantic hero. Ugh.
3. The studio betrayed Finn. He was set up for a wonderful character arc, but because China didn't want a black hero, they screwed him over. That fight you're whining about in Ep. 7 makes a lot more sense when you realise that Kylo is fighting *two* nascent force wielders.

 

[Djmac1031]

That fight you're whining about in Ep. 7 makes a lot more sense when you realise that Kylo is fighting *two* nascent force wielders.

That, and he was shot and wounded badly by Chewbaccas bowcaster, a weapon they went out of their way to demonstrate was incredibly powerful.

 

[djrip]

OK, I'll bite and be a whiny crybaby.

Rey is a boring Mary Sue. The idea of rebooting Luke Skywalker in the third trilogy as a woman was a fine idea. That's basically what the movie makers decided to do. Fine. Nice idea. Daisy Ridley is a fine actress and the character had a lot of potential. But her character has fatal flaws from a dramatic standpoint:

1. She has no sense of humor. This has been a problem with the Star Wars movies since the first trilogy. There's no fun. It's too serious. In the initial trilogy, there was a wink-wink fun sensibility, which is crucial, because unless you have no sense whatsoever, you realize that the whole thing is ridiculous and shouldn't be taken too seriously. Princess Leia watched her home planet get blown up, but she still had plenty of funny lines. Same with Han Solo. The movie makers understood that the best way for Star Wars to work was for it not to be taken too seriously. They completely forgot that when the franchise was restarted 20 years ago. Rey has no humor at all. I can't think of a single funny line she has. Everything is in deadly earnest. Yawn.

2. She's unusually, naturally force sensitive. That's fine. So was Luke. But it took Luke three movies to be able to face and defeat Darth Vader. He had growth to do, doubts to overcome, something that's essential for a good character arc. Rey beats Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel by the end of the first movie, after having had no time to master the skills, unlike Kylo Ren, who has spent years becoming a Sith master. Dumb. It's dumb, lazy movie writing. Classic Mary Sue stuff.

3. Is there any interesting growth or character development with Rey? I don't see any. As a character, she's dull as dishwater. Same thing with Finn and Poe. Lots of potential, nothing realized. Part of the problem is that Rian Johnson in the second movie subverted everything JJ Abrams did in the first movie, and then JJ Abrams, when he took over for the third movie, undid everything Johnson did. So it's a huge narrative mess.

It's too bad, because there was a lot of potential for Rey, and Daisy Ridley is very appealing.

Luke had to sacrifice to advance, lose his hand. Anakin had to lose something to become what he would become. Rey never seems to sacrifice or lose anything, or even have a particularly hard time. The problem is not her gender, whatsoever. The problem is they didn't write any coherent story for those movies, with a narrative arc, lows that feel truly low followed by highs. And from one movie to the next they were wrestling with the previous director/writers about how it should go. But Rey herself is great, they just should have given her some difficulties that she had to truly lose something important to overcome in the story.

 

[djrip]

I go on You tube and I type in "Fight scene" because I really enjoy them and will watch just about any kind. 99% of them are full of shit. Movies no one could really make under those circumstances, beatings no one could take in real life, and totally exaggerated in every way

Because they're fiction.

But any time the scene is an ass kicking woman...the section is filled with "No woman can do that, he'd beat the shit out of her, more feminist crap...." yet these same people(like lit if you read through enough comments you'll see the same names) will crow over Mission impossible and Fast and the Furious, Jason Stratham and SCot Adkins clips, John Wick etc...and its "yeah!!!!!!" with an occasional, "Kind of a stretch, but its a movie, roll with it"

But they can't roll with it when its a woman.

It must be sad to be so insecure you have to rail away against made up stories and movies.

The other thing that makes me roll my eyes is the majority of those people haven't been in a fight since fourth grade, but telling you all what can and can't be done. I've been involved in martial arts for 40 years at this point, and can tell you that if its not over within a few seconds neither person knows what they're doing. That and if anyone here has ever been hit with a beer bottle...A, they don't generally shatter, and B...you do not just turn around like it was nothing, or pop back up.

Unless you're one of the super studs I just mentioned of course cause "Guy power!!!!!!!"

Best thing about going to one of those rage rooms was realizing just how damn hard beer bottles are. It took me three tries to break one on a concrete wall! Bats and golf clubs work well, though.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I think there's a problem that... man, okay, here we go.

TL;DR: The Captain Marvel movie is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with the way Hollywood presents female heroes but also with how men react to those failures.

I'll use an example, one near and dear to my comic book nerd heart: Captain Marvel. I'm a huge Carol Danvers fan. I loved her in almost all of her incarnations. I have a picture of my daughter at three years old in a Princess Sparklefists shirt. I should have LOVED the movie; I didn't. Didn't hate it, but didn't love it, either. And it's partially because Marvel Studios made the same mistakes with her in the movies that they made with her in the comics. But it's some other things, too. I'll get into those later.

Now, I have to apologize here, because I have to drop a pretty fair comic book nerdery to get to my point, but I will get there.

Captain Marvel was originally a white guy; more accurately, he was an alien from another world sent to ours... to spy on it. But then he ended up protecting it instead. He was Marvel's answer to Superman, both in powers and character. Carol Danvers was sort of his Lois Lane at first, although her name was (probably) made as a joking reference to Supergirl/Kara Zor-El/Linda Danvers; hence Carol (Kara) Danvers.

Comic books have always tried to ride he coattails of what's trendy, and that was esepcially true in the 70s Marvel bullpen. Blaxploitation movies gave us Luke Cage, kung fu flicks gave us Iron Fist and Shang Chi, and the general feminist movement gave us... just, like, a whole lot of characters: She-Hulk, Spiderwoman, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, Jean Grey going from Marvel Girl to Phoenix and on and on. Ms. Marvel was tied to that, especially the "Ms." part, which was still relatively new at the time. It was a signal: hey, this character's totally a feminist!

She wasn't written that way, of course, anymore than Luke Cage sounded like a real black guy. They were a bunch of older white guys' ideas about the "other." Well-intentioned white guys, for the most part, and those characters are all still beloved by POC fans/women fans of the era and later, but with a big "problematic" asterisk next to it.

That asterisk got a lot bigger when the misogynistic editor of the Avengers decided he want her not just off the team, but GONE. In one of the most notorious stories of the era, she finds herself pregnant, gives birth, the baby grows to a full grown man that is from another dimension or something, and then she goes away with him to that other dimension as her mate while the rest of the Avengers look on like, "hey, have a good time with your rapist!"

Chris Claremont, one of the really well-intentioned white guys, brought her back in X-Men, but was told she couldn't be Ms. Marvel anymore. She fights with Rogue and gets her memories and powers permanently drained, acts as the pilot for the X-Men for a while, goes into space, becomes the stupidly powerful Binary... it just kind of goes from here.

Meanwhile, Captain Marvel dies. He's one of the few comic book deaths that's still stuck in the modern era. The whys of his death don't matter, but his death does and the fact that it stuck.

Marvel did try to bring in a new Captain Marvel in the 80s, a black woman named Monica Rambeau who eventually became the leader of the Avengers. Monica is Photon in the upcoming The Marvels movie that features her, Carol Danvers, and Kamala Kahn. We'll circle back to this, but just know that she didn't stick as Captain Marvel because the writer of the Avengers at the time (around 1985) was also writing Captain America and wanted Cap to be the leader again. She got shafted, then kicked around comics for years as, variously, Photon, Spectrum, and Pulsar, not really returning to any prominence until the 2010s or so. Marvel lets the Captain Marvel title sort of just... breathe for a long while after Monica shuffled off.

Whew. Sorry, I know this is a lot, but it'll pay off.

Meanwhile, Carol is off doing Carol stuff. In rough order (I'm getting old, and this is like forty years of comics, okay?) she comes back from space, rejoins the Avengers, loses her Binary powers, regains her Ms. Marvel ones--along with her memories--changes her codename to Warbird, becomes an alcoholic, gets Tony Stark as an AA sponsor and goes back to Ms. Marvel. She goes through A LOT, and it's always reflected in her character choices. For a big chunk of the late 90s to early 2010s, she's one of the best-written, most relatable characters in Marvel comics, this immensely powerful character that never gets above the B-tier, and therefore has writers that are allowed to do interesting things with her.

Then stuff happens.

 

[NoTalentHack]

She (and the rest of the Marvel universe) spend a bunch of time in a warped version of their reality. In Carol's case, she's the very definition of A-tier there, with a prominence that matches her power level. When she returns, she decides she's going to go for the brass ring. Eventually, she decides to take up the mantle of Captain Marvel instead of Ms. Marvel.

Now, notice that I'm talking about her as a real person. In truth, what happened in the background was that Marvel had a cash cow with the MCU. The "I'm going to be the best" storyline happened before that, but the culmination of it came when someone at Marvel said, "You know, we really need a Wonder Woman."

I was SO excited when they announced she'd be Captain Marvel. One of my favorite characters, this perpetual underdog, finally getting her due. She was going to have an awesome new less-revealing costume. Monica Rambeau, my first Captain Marvel, was also getting her day in the sun, so extra joy. On Carol's book, they'd hired Kelly Sue DeConnick, one of my favorite writers male or female, to write the debut arcs. My girl was primed for success.

That didn't happen.

Oh, she was pushed. She was definitely pushed and still is. But when they decided they needed a Wonder Woman, they turned her into a character that read almost like a generic guy for some reason. All of the stuff in her backstory that made her her, that was integrally tied to Ms. Marvel, got... not jettisonned. You can't really do that in comic without a bunch of retcons. But ignored. Her alcoholism? Gone. Lost memories? Barely mentioned. Rivalry with Rogue, connections to other characters, all of the stuff that made Carol Carol was just pushed aside.

On top of that, she got powered up. Way powered up. That might sound great, right? Except that the way you show a character is powerful is either by having them fight a villain they previously had trouble with and trounce them... or do that with another hero. And to do that, you usually have to make the opposing hero an idiot and/or have them job (lose when they should win) to the other character.

And then DeConnick wrote a run that... well, it wasn't for me. It wasn't for a lot of the previous fans of the character. It got some good press, and it was very popular with a lot of the female readership, both new and previous fans, but like I said, it didn't "feel" like Carol. It felt like a Strong Female Character in all the worst ways, a generic hardass ex-Air Force officer with few real flaws, a bad supporting cast that mostly existed to go "Oh my god, you're SO AWESOME!" and no charm.

They shaved all the rough edges off of her. They only let her fail in the most boring, Hero's Journey 101 sort of ways. They didn't let her be the brash, kind of boorish, insecure former alcoholic that we all loved.

They've done this before; they'll do it again later. They've done it with male and female characters both; the less said about Spider-Man's series where he was rich, famous, and happy instead of introverted, dorky, and struggling the better. When editorial pushes characters, their two modes are "make them powerful and make them palatable." And that usually makes them bland.

So that brings us back to movies and the Captain Marvel movie. I saw it opening day. I liked it, although I thought it was kind of mid. I was glad to see Carol Danvers up there, even if I didn't really recognize her. Some of the component parts were there, but they weren't her, not the one I loved. They were a mishmash of certain aspects of her past as Ms. Marvel combined with her new "perfect badass" Captain Marvel from the comics. And, of course, the press tour made sure everyone knew she was SO powerful, more powerful than Hulk or Thor.

There are three great ways to make comic book readers reject your new character: have them take an existing character's mantle (especially if the existing character says "I'm not worthy"); make them a perfect-but ("I have one flaw of note, and we're going to hammer the shit out this"), and tell the reader, "Wait, you like X? But look at how powerful our new Y is! Watch them kick the shit out of X!"

The Captain Marvel movie did two out of three. On top of that, there are themes explored in the movie that... just aren't for me. And that's fine! I thought it was mid. My wife loved it, most of the women I know loved it, etc. There were parts of it that had the women in the audience cheering that I was like, "yeah, that's a pretty nice moment. Go her." And that's great! It doesn't need to be for me. They don't all need to be for me, or for anyone else.

Just like Black Panther; to me it had great world-building, a perfect lead, a great villain, some cool side-characters, and the audacity to actually include Man-Ape (Man-Ape, for fuck's sake!) in a movie. It also had a terrible third act, awful CGI, and a villain who completely went off the rails because you can't have the villain make too much sense. But, again, not for me. Doesn't have to be. I've had my "mid superhero movie that I love" experience. Everyone else should, too.

But I was open to "this isn't for me." Some people, both men and women, aren't. Hell, look at the raucous arguments we have about even the existence of certain categories here. But the flipside of this is that first, some people don't have the language or ego to say, "this isn't for me, but I'm glad it was for you." But second, even that kind of damning with faint praise will be attacked as misogyny, racism, etc. Everyone is so tense around any kind of discussion regarding so many topics that we're like a town full of gunfighters, ready to draw at the slightest twitch.

There's no clout in moderation. There's no rep to be made in finding a middle ground. There's a culture war, lines are drawn, and you'd better not step outside of them. If Black Panther isn't the greatest superhero movie made, or Barbie isn't a feminist masterpiece, or you attack Rey as a poorly drawn character in a poorly drawn trilogy, that puts you on the other side of the line.

And, like, I get it. You look at how Kelly Marie Tran was treated, or the way Brie Larson's relatively mild snark was blown out of proportion during the Captain Marvel press tour, or the way white racists lost their shit and mocked black folks doing the Wakanda Forever salute, and it's easy to say "you have to be an awful person if you're on the other side of this." But most people aren't. And not everyone defending these movies that feel relatively mid to white straight guys are doing so from a position of honesty, either. I had someone tell me with a straight face that the Catwoman movie was good, and it was only racism that crippled it. Halle Berry's Catwoman! The one that she showed up to the Golden Raspberry awards for and took her licks over!

I guess what I'm saying is this: Marvel (and others) are making movies that appeal to a broader demographic range, and that's great. But everyone needs to calm the fuck down. Captain Marvel wasn't universally awesome; even a huge Carol Danvers fanboy like me was like "yeah, pretty good." Black Panther might have been a cultural touchstone, but it was only a so-so action movie. And the latest Star Wars trilogy was just... not good. For a lot of reasons, but not least of all was that there was no kind of coherency there at all. Barbie (which I have not seen, but almost certainly will), I'm sure has all sorts of structural and messaging problems if one sits down and thinks about it; anything coming out of the studio system will.

So, you know, extend goodwill to each other. Maybe be less strident when discussing films. It's not "Rey was Mary Sue trash," it's "I didn't feel Rey's character arc worked." It's not necessarily "you're a misogynist," it's "you didn't see in this what I saw, and you're communicating it aggressively."

But My Little Pony is fucking awesome. Even if the movie was kind of mid to me; my daughter loved the hell out of it, though, so I do, too. Because everyone should have their mid movie they love.

 

[AlinaX]

My problem with superheroes and a lot of paranormal/urban fantasy is that by making the main characters so powerful, they end up having to create equally powerful villains, and the stories become increasingly dominated by the struggle of supermen against a backdrop of the mundane masses whose lives are an irrelevance.

I loved that they made a Supergirl series, and the first season was particularly good (despite a large number of plot holes and inconsistencies) because it was a more human season. The New Adventures of Superman (Dean Cain and Teri Hatcher) also worked quite well because of its human connection, but film/TV generally prefers to show a clash of Titans rather than deal with the moral conflict in human stories.

 

[AlinaX]

So, you know, extend goodwill to each other. Maybe be less strident when discussing films. It's not "Rey was Mary Sue trash," it's "I didn't feel Rey's character arc worked." It's not necessarily "you're a misogynist," it's "you didn't see in this what I saw, and you're communicating it aggressively."

See, I'm perfectly happy for people to say her character should have been developed this way or that. It's all headcanons and we can agree to disagree. But I loved Rey and Finn and I still feel hurt by their betrayal.

 

[NoTalentHack]

See, I'm perfectly happy for people to say her character should have been developed this way or that. It's all headcanons and we can agree to disagree. But I loved Rey and Finn and I still feel hurt by their betrayal.

Same. I like what Johnson did with the second movie, in picking apart tropes and the like, but if the said “Hah, we’re going to go for a do-over on the second two films” and actually did something, you know, coherent? I’d be fine with it.

 

[Djmac1031]

The Captain Marvel movie is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with the way Hollywood presents female heroes but also with how men react to those failures.

I didn't even bring up Captain Marvel in my initial comment because I didn't feel I needed to.

While familiar with the comic character, I'm not nearly as versed in her history as you.

So for me, I had to take the movie version on it's merits.

And guess what? I had absolutely no problem with the character as portrayed and acted.

And I couldn't care at all about the "controversy" surrounding Bri Larsons comment.

Was it the best movie ever? No.

Was it a little clunky, heavy handed in some parts? Absolutely.

But overall I enjoyed it, and it's message, which to me wasn't so much "Girl Power!" as it was "keep fighting no matter how many times you get knocked down, and don't let others determine your limits."

I think that's a great message regardless of gender.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I didn't even bring up Captain Marvel in my initial comment because I didn't feel I needed to.

While familiar with the comic character, I'm not nearly as versed in her history as you.

So for me, I had to take the movie version on it's merits.

And guess what? I had absolutely no problem with the character as portrayed and acted.

And I couldn't care at all about the "controversy" surrounding Bri Larsons comment.

Was it the best movie ever? No.

Was it a little clunky, heavy handed in some parts? Absolutely.

But overall I enjoyed it, and it's message, which to me wasn't so much "Girl Power!" as it was "keep fighting no matter how many times you get knocked down, and don't let others determine your limits."

I think that's a great message regardless of gender.

It is, but it’s also the theme of like a dozen superhero movies. I’ve seen it done enough that it didn’t resonate with me.

But it was the first female-led superhero movie that used that theme that way and was otherwise well-made. And that made it resonate with people who had never seen a character that looked like them, had shared experiences they could relate to, etc. Like I said: mid for me, great for them. And that makes me happy.

 

[Djmac1031]

Same. I like what Johnson did with the second movie, in picking apart tropes and the like, but if the said “Hah, we’re going to go for a do-over on the second two films” and actually did something, you know, coherent? I’d be fine with it.

Don't even get me started on Rise Of Skywalker lol.

I'm one of the few staunch defenders of Rian Johnson and The Last Jedi.

He was brave enough to try and lead SW in a whole new direction.

But Disney caved to the outrage and the fanboy theories and said "Nah, whoopsie, let's backtrack all that. Rey is a Palpatine. Oh, speaking of which, bring him back because we need a villain and we can't make it Kylo because the fans wanna ship him with Rey. So let's redo the Vader redemption thing. Oh, and make sure they KISS at the end. Because, you know, the female character is supposed to fall in love with the guy."

What a clusterfuck.

 

[Djmac1031]

And that made it resonate with people who had never seen a character that looked like them, had shared experiences they could relate to, etc. Like I said: mid for me, great for them. And that makes me happy.

I said the exact same thing about Ms. Marvel.

I wasn't that show's target audience.

Not because it was female lead, or featured a different culture.

But because it was absolutely aimed at a teenage audience.

And I was totally okay with that. And still enjoyed the show anyway.

Again, not my "favorite" but I'm absolutely thrilled for anyone for whom that character resonates with to be able to identify with and embrace. I'm totally on board with that.

 

[lovecraft68]

It is, but it’s also the theme of like a dozen superhero movies. I’ve seen it done enough that it didn’t resonate with me.

But it was the first female-led superhero movie that used that theme that way and was otherwise well-made. And that made it resonate with people who had never seen a character that looked like them, had shared experiences they could relate to, etc. Like I said: mid for me, great for them. And that makes me happy.

That's the problem the "looked like them" Ms. Marvel back in the day resembled an average person. Yes, she had powers, but Danvers was flawed with a lot of personal issues real people can identify with, and even as a Super Hero got her ass handed to her a few times, then again, for years Marvel was known for that, they're characters had problems and took beating, had bad relationships, drug issues etc. Its why they took over as #1 from DC who remained with their perfect characters for a longer period of time.

But in the movie....other than a quick montage of her falling down and getting back up, and a crude comment made by a make pilot-what adversity was there really? And in the present...let's face it, she made Fury look like the bumbling there for comedic effect character from a cop buddy movie, all too perfect and all too quickly.

I love strong female characters, but like all characters, they need a heroes journey and the trend now is for the women to be perfect from day one, and CM and Rey give the you tubers I mentioned some ground to stand on because there's legit cool female lead and the Mary Sue and Larson fell under Mary sue-of course they ignore how many male Mary sues are out there, but that's because they have an agenda.

The upsetting thing to me is MCU had their bad ass and flawed with a tough back story character in Black Widow and she was handled perfectly. She was always an equal member of the team, was never demeaned for being a woman, and also never demeaned or tried to be superior to the men around here. That's how its done, not the "bestest evahhh" from day one.

As for Larson and her comments, well I'm from the school of being sick of hollywood elitists saying anything about anyone while they act like royalty and cover up the sexual and moral sickness they practice on an every day basis, but it didn't stop me from seeing the movie which was I'd say 'servicable' but what I didn't like with Larson is the woman can act, but saw no reason to do it in the MCU she's as wooden as William Shatner, can't find a feeling or an expression other than contempt and speaks down to every character around her making her unlikeable

Meanwhile miss morality is sharing the screen with a supporting actor charged with sending dick pics to a minor...has nothing to say about that though...which takes me back to my, they all need to STFU about what other people need to say do and think

 

[Djmac1031]

but what I didn't like with Larson is the woman can act, but saw no reason to do it in the MCU she's as wooden as William Shatner, can't find a feeling or an expression other than contempt and speaks down to every character around her making her unlikeable

I interpreted that approach as a character who had her memories wiped and that also affected her personality. And so yes, she held her emotions in check.

Now, you can feel free to disagree with that approach or my interpretation. But I'd say the blame lays on the director then for not clearly defining the character, and not the actress who followed directions and the script.

 

[lovecraft68]

I said the exact same thing about Ms. Marvel.

I wasn't that show's target audience.

Not because it was female lead, or featured a different culture.

But because it was absolutely aimed at a teenage audience.

And I was totally okay with that. And still enjoyed the show anyway.

Again, not my "favorite" but I'm absolutely thrilled for anyone for whom that character resonates with to be able to identify with and embrace. I'm totally on board with that.

Same here, I didn't bother because it was meant for the tween audience and there's nothing wrong with that other than I'm not really going to identify with it, and I don't have to.

The toxic critics have this thing about "the movie isn't aimed at me" well...not every movie is meant for everyone. I love horror, some don't, but they're not offended when a horror movie comes out nor am I offended when rom coms come out. Not my cuppa as my wife would say, and its no big deal.

I love the "Not my Tolkien, Star Wars, Indy Jones etc crowd screaming everything is being desecrated. First off...I didn't know they owned the franchise, second times change and movies reflect the times, and if you're good with it, enjoy it, if not no one is making you watch it.

Leave it to the current society to make what's supposed to be entertainment politically divisive

 

[Djmac1031]

Same here, I didn't bother because it was meant for the tween audience and there's nothing wrong with that other than I'm not really going to identify with it, and I don't have to.

The toxic critics have this thing about "the movie isn't aimed at me" well...not every movie is meant for everyone. I love horror, some don't, but they're not offended when a horror movie comes out nor am I offended when rom coms come out. Not my cuppa as my wife would say, and its no big deal.

I love the "Not my Tolkien, Star Wars, Indy Jones etc crowd screaming everything is being desecrated. First off...I didn't know they owned the franchise, second times change and movies reflect the times, and if you're good with it, enjoy it, if not no one is making you watch it.

Leave it to the current society to make what's supposed to be entertainment politically divisive

We gotta stop agreeing on things.

People might actually start to think we respect each other's viewpoints or something.

 

[lovecraft68]

I interpreted that approach as a character who had her memories wiped and that also affected her personality. And so yes, she held her emotions in check.

Now, you can feel free to disagree with that approach or my interpretation. But I'd say the blame lays on the director then for not clearly defining the character, and not the actress who followed directions and the script.

Not agreeing with that thought. Mine would be maybe she felt that being a Kree warrior she thought the character would be kind of robotic, but even with that, I feel it was her being aloof on a personal level

But I do agree on the script effecting a lot of things in movies and shows. Rings of Power was flat out awful, but the personal attacks against the women playing Galadriel and some of the other cast was unwarranted. This is their job, and they're not turning down major roles and big money even if they look at the script and think huh? Because I still can't get over how awful the writing was in that show, just flat out nonsensical, no one could do anything with that.

Same for the new Indy movie, its sucked ass, but all these incels shrieking at Waller....again she's being paid to be who the director wants her to be...she's supposed to say "I come across as annoying. please take your summer blockbuster role and the fat pay check and keep it cause I don't want to upset the "not my indy" crowd.

 

[Djmac1031]

Same for the new Indy movie, its sucked ass, but all these incels shrieking at Waller....again she's being paid to be who the director wants her to be...she's supposed to say "I come across as annoying. please take your summer blockbuster role and the fat pay check and keep it cause I don't want to upset the "not my indy" crowd.

Jesus, again we agree .

My problem with that movie wasn't Waller.

It was the character. And the desecration of Indy at her expense.

And what they did to Marrion? Fuck me.

Marrion was one of the greatest women characters ever written for an action movie.

And as bad as Crystal Skull was, they at least gave Indy and Marrion a HEA ending, right?

Nope. Because why let them have had a happy life together when you can instead cut and paste the Han and Leia plot into it, make them both miserable, split apart AGAIN only to reconcile AGAIN but only because the script says so?

There was such a better way to do that movie: Indy, a respected professor, happily married, living a normal, average family life.

Don't wanna bring the son back? Fine, but no need to kill him off. Just explain why he's not around.

Introduce the goddaughter, sure, fine. Have Indy drug out of retirement for one last adventure by joining her on her quest to find the whosawhatsit thingie, great.

Make her an equal character to him, sure, fine. But not take a Backseat to her the whole fucking movie.

And certainly don't have her leave him to the mercy of the bad guys and expect me to somehow like her later.

Bad writing ruined that movie. Not an actress playing one role.

 

[lovecraft68]

Jesus, again we agree .

My problem with that movie wasn't Waller.

It was the character. And the desecration of Indy at her expense.

And what they did to Marrion? Fuck me.

Marrion was one of the greatest women characters ever written for an action movie.

And as bad as Crystal Skull was, they at least gave Indy and Marrion a HEA ending, right?

Nope. Because why let them have had a happy life together when you can instead cut and paste the Han and Leia plot into it, make them both miserable, split apart AGAIN only to reconcile AGAIN but only because the script says so?

There was such a better way to do that movie: Indy, a respected professor, happily married, living a normal, average family life.

Don't wanna bring the son back? Fine, but no need to kill him off. Just explain why he's not around.

Introduce the goddaughter, sure, fine. Have Indy drug out of retirement for one last adventure by joining her on her quest to find the whosawhatsit thingie, great.

Make her an equal character to him, sure, fine. But not take a Backseat to her the whole fucking movie.

And certainly don't have her leave him to the mercy of the bad guys and expect me to somehow like her later.

Bad writing ruined that movie. Not an actress playing one role.

First off at Ford's age I really saw no reason for a send off. Last Crusade was a send off. This is pure cask cow.
But I would have been fine with it going back to the first one and having Indy and Marion go on a last adventure together.

Thing is, the people saying Indy was diminished, well at that age I can understand that, its believable and having a younger partner take up some of the lead also understandable, and if the younger partner is a woman...well who cares? But you're right, the way they made him the butt of her jokes was a bit much, but that's Kathleen Kennedy all day long, and again gives some fodder to the toxic femininity complaint. But the jackals will attack any movie that the lead doesn't have a dick they can suck off in their 'unbiased' reviews

Something I have to get off my chest is while complaints like yours go on and the real morons go on and on...they are giving Ford a free ride. He has the ability at this point to say "Seriously? No, do it without me" but he was fully on board with everything here until people complained then he tried some weak arguments he didn't like it.

As bad as it was....they had a lot of reshoots because the audiences were killing it in test screenings. There's a rumor that Kennedy's original ending was for Indy to go back in time, meet young Indy, they both die and Waller picks up the hat and whip.

The movies was then going to go into a montage of iconic indy scenes, but with Waller in them. In other words, male Indy never existed...now, true or not, who knows, but not sure I'd put it past Kennedy.

My way of thinking is a franchise ends when I want it to. New movies do not erase the classics and those will be mine to watch whenever I want, so once a franchise reached the beat beyond death point, I don't freak, I just won't watch.

Like how I'll be ignoring that crap bag Exorcist trilogy that's about to start.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Ah, the old Female Empowerment In Hollywood rabbit hole.

Okay, down I go...

I'm all for women action heroes, 100%.

And I'm all for creating more of them.

But it has to be done RIGHT.

Hollywood has been very much hit or miss on this.

Birds Of Prey is an example of a miss. Every single man in that movie is a piece of shit, which is, by default, supposed to make us root for the women.

But I found the characters all one dimensional, and some of them, especially Harley herself, just as terrible as the men she was fighting back against.

Then look how they destroyed the Terminator franchise.

John Connor was the main focus throughout every single film, even the first one, before he was born.

So what did they do? Kill him off and replaced him with a random girl no one knew or cared about.

Ridiculous choice.

Then there's the new Indiana Jones movie. Jesus, what a mess that was.

I have no problems with a new female character. My problem stems from introducing her in a way where she becomes more of the focus than Indy.

She's obnoxious and annoying, and actually leaves Indy behind to possibly be killed by the men chasing her. But we're supposed to be rooting for her by the end? Makes no sense.

Now, on the reverse end:

I'm a massive Star Wars fan, have been all my life.

But even I'll admit the sequels have problems. LOTS of them.

Rey, however, is not one of them.

The same people who complain that Rey is a "Mary Sue" who knows how to do everything too easily are the same exact people who had no problem whatsoever with Luke Skywalker jumping into a spaceship he's never flown before, surviving a major dogfight against trained experts, and blowing up a space station with his eyes closed.

All after 15 minutes of training by an old Jedi that basically boiled down to "your senses can deceive you, act on instinct."

I haven't seen the Barbie movie yet.

I get what it is, and I get it's target audience. And that target audience isn't me.

I have zero objections to it, and may watch it when it hits streaming. I just felt no need to rush out to see it.

So to sum up my rambling:

I've said it a million times: characters matter. Male, female, gay, trans, doesn't matter.

Write me a good character with strong motivations and make me care about them, and I'll happily believe any ridiculous action nonsense you throw my way.

Give me shallow, one dimensional characters who's actions and motivations make no sense and I'll spend the entire movie picking it apart piece by piece.

Rey rocks! Not all the movies do.

I’ve said it before and I’ll no doubt say it again. I get shivers down my spine every time she lights up the sabre to take on Kylo Ren in TFA.

Plus she has a really gorgeous neck, I’m a bit of a neck gal.

Em

 

[Djmac1031]

First off at Ford's age I really saw no reason for a send off. Last Crusade was a send off. This is pure cask cow.
But I would have been fine with it going back to the first one and having Indy and Marion go on a last adventure together.

Thing is, the people saying Indy was diminished, well at that age I can understand that, its believable and having a younger partner take up some of the lead also understandable, and if the younger partner is a woman...well who cares? But you're right, the way they made him the butt of her jokes was a bit much, but that's Kathleen Kennedy all day long, and again gives some fodder to the toxic femininity complaint. But the jackals will attack any movie that the lead doesn't have a dick they can suck off in their 'unbiased' reviews

Something I have to get off my chest is while complaints like yours go on and the real morons go on and on...they are giving Ford a free ride. He has the ability at this point to say "Seriously? No, do it without me" but he was fully on board with everything here until people complained then he tried some weak arguments he didn't like it.

As bad as it was....they had a lot of reshoots because the audiences were killing it in test screenings. There's a rumor that Kennedy's original ending was for Indy to go back in time, meet young Indy, they both die and Waller picks up the hat and whip.

The movies was then going to go into a montage of iconic indy scenes, but with Waller in them. In other words, male Indy never existed...now, true or not, who knows, but not sure I'd put it past Kennedy.

My way of thinking is a franchise ends when I want it to. New movies do not erase the classics and those will be mine to watch whenever I want, so once a franchise reached the beat beyond death point, I don't freak, I just won't watch.

Like how I'll be ignoring that crap bag Exorcist trilogy that's about to start.

I had high hopes James Mangold would give Indy the Logan treatment.

Not in the gritty violence aspect, no, but in the more grounded, realistic approach to the character.

Even in the first Raiders, Indy wasn't a Superhero. He got his ass kicked, multiple times.

Run with that and the age thing. Stretch plausibility, sure, but don't break it.

Have fun with a really old Indy trying to keep up, I'd have been fine with that.

But did they have to destroy his dignity???

I'll agree, studio interference probably had a LOT to do with that fucking mess.

As for Ford?

He's never been shy about his motivations. He saw one last huge paycheck and took it.

 

[Djmac1031]

Rey rocks! Not all the movies do.

I’ve said it before and I’ll no doubt say it again. I get shivers down my spine every time she lights up the sabre to take on Kylo Ren in TFA.

Plus she has a really gorgeous neck, I’m a bit of a neck gal.

Em

I was absolutely enthralled with the idea they didn't give her a romantic attachment in the first two films.

That kiss in Rise Of Skywalker made me wanna hurl.