Who Is Lying About Iraq?

[Gringao]

Some hazing at the prison isn’t quite the same as killing hundreds of thousands of Kurds.

Borscht doesn't really care about what happened at Abu Ghraib - what he cares about is that it can be used in a tactical attack against a political enemy. If he really gave a damn about what happened inside the walls of the prison, he would have been springing the length of his leash to demand the ouster of its previous landlord, Saddam Hussein:

LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day.

LINK

Borscht knows that to hold a consistent yardstick up to Abu Ghraib means putting that same political enemy in the position of waging a war that might mean that political enemy would garner the credit for improving the conditions there, not to mention putting the dictator out of business.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Have we figured out who lied yet?

 

[SleepingWarrior]

Have we figured out who lied yet?

Everyone but myself.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

and how do I know that is true?

*cocks eyebrow*

 

[SleepingWarrior]

and how do I know that is true?

*cocks eyebrow*

Because there is no documentation to the contrary. *nods*


And I said so!!

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Just the sort of thing an egocentric sociopath would say.

 

[Gringao]

Have we figured out who lied yet?

Well, we know that Joe Wilson did but that's such an old an well-known lie that it's not likely to be a revelation.

 

[Peregrinator]

Well, we know that Joe Wilson did but that's such an old an well-known lie that it's not likely to be a revelation.

My money is increasingly on "everyone who was even remotely involved."

 

[zipman]

Have we figured out who lied yet?

No, but we are in "the last throes" of the debate!

 

[Gringao]

No, but we are in "the last throes" of the debate!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that Libby will walk. Fitzgerald will drop the charges when the full implications of Woodward's latest revelations becomes known.

 

[Peregrinator]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that Libby will walk. Fitzgerald will drop the charges when the full implications of Woodward's latest revelations becomes known.

You know, you're probably right about that. It's such a chickenshit charge anyway. I still think they're all lying. The conclusion I eventually reach in all these political fights.

 

[Gringao]

You know, you're probably right about that. It's such a chickenshit charge anyway. I still think they're all lying. The conclusion I eventually reach in all these political fights.

I don't think it's a chickenshit charge at all. Lying to grand juries is serious business. I'm beginning to think that Libby did hear about Plame from a reporter, possibly Woodward, before he heard from Cheney.

In the end, I think nothing is going to come of this investigation because Valerie Plame was not someone whose identity was protected.

 

[zipman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that Libby will walk. Fitzgerald will drop the charges when the full implications of Woodward's latest revelations becomes known.

I disagree. If my memory serves me he was prepared to plead guilty when he thought all he was going to get was a slap on the wrist.

personally I think he is guilty of lying and will be convicted of it.

 

[Borscht]

There is no credible evidence that phosphorous was used against civilians (There are a lot of holes in that story.

Where do you guys come up with this shit? No facts, not even a good rumor, but you’re convinced anyway.

Let me get this absolutely straight.

The American government has admitted using white phosphorous against the population of Fallujah.

And yet, despite this, you still don't believe it happened.

























































Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[Gringao]

I disagree. If my memory serves me he was prepared to plead guilty when he thought all he was going to get was a slap on the wrist.

personally I think he is guilty of lying and will be convicted of it.

If the choice is a record with a slap on the wrist as punishment and an acquittal with a $2 million legal price tag on it, which would you pick?

 

[Gringao]

Let me get this absolutely straight.

The American government has admitted using white phosphorous against the population of Fallujah.

And yet, despite this, you still don't believe it happened.

Jesus fucking Christ.

The government admitted deliberate use of Willie Pete against civilians in Fallujah? Tell us more, Magilla.

 

[Peregrinator]

I don't think it's a chickenshit charge at all. Lying to grand juries is serious business. I'm beginning to think that Libby did hear about Plame from a reporter, possibly Woodward, before he heard from Cheney.

In the end, I think nothing is going to come of this investigation because Valerie Plame was not someone whose identity was protected.

Actually, I agree. I meant "chickenshit compared to the explosive possibilities." Politically chickenshit. Fitz makes the point pretty succintly in the press conference.

I hear you about the non-protected status. I gotta wonder, though, if that's the case, why didn't Fitz just say that? Why the continuing investigation and extending the GJ?

 

[Borscht]

Borscht doesn't really care about what happened at Abu Ghraib - what he cares about is that it can be used in a tactical attack against a political enemy. If he really gave a damn about what happened inside the walls of the prison, he would have been springing the length of his leash to demand the ouster of its previous landlord, Saddam Hussein:

LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day.

LINK

Borscht knows that to hold a consistent yardstick up to Abu Ghraib means putting that same political enemy in the position of waging a war that might mean that political enemy would garner the credit for improving the conditions there, not to mention putting the dictator out of business.

Finally, we're getting somewehere.

What you say is true. I do expect more from America than I do from a a Gulf Tyranny.

That's why I 'run the length of my leash' when America copies Saddam's methods. In my opinion, these atrocities are a betrayel of the civilization that better men than me and you fought to create.

You disagree. You think that it's OK for America to abuse POWs and murder civilians.

This is why we'll never finish this argument - it's impossible to find common ground between these two positions.

 

[Gringao]

Perhaps if they find the guys that used the WP against the Islamofascists in Falluja, they'll do what they've done to some that have used it against enemies in previous conflicts - give them Congressional Medals of Honor:

WAUGH, ROBERT T.

First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, 339th Infantry, 85th Infantry Division... For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy. In the course of an attack upon an enemy-held hill on 11 May, 1st Lt. Waugh personally reconnoitered a heavily mined area before entering it with his platoon. Directing his men to deliver fire on 6 bunkers guarding this hill, 1st Lt. Waugh advanced alone against them, reached the first bunker, threw phosphorus grenades into it and as the defenders emerged, killed them with a burst from his tommygun. He repeated this process on the 5 remaining bunkers, killing or capturing the occupants...

HARMON, ROY W.

Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company C, 362d Infantry, 91st Infantry Division... Sgt. Harmon ordered his squad to hold their position and voluntarily began a 1-man assault. Carrying white phosphorus grenades and a submachine gun, he skillfully took advantage of what little cover the terrain afforded and crept to within 25 yards of the first position. He set the haystack afire with a grenade, and when 2 of the enemy attempted to flee from the inferno, he killed them with his submachine gun...

JACKSON, ARTHUR J.

Private First Class, U.S. Marine Corps, 3d Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division... Boldly taking the initiative when his platoon's left flank advance was held up by the fire of Japanese troops concealed in strongly fortified positions, Pfc. Jackson unhesitatingly proceeded forward of our lines and, courageously defying the heavy barrages, charged a large pillbox housing approximately 35 enemy soldiers. Pouring his automatic fire into the opening of the fixed installation to trap the occupying troops, he hurled white phosphorus grenades and explosive charges brought up by a fellow marine, demolishing the pillbox and killing all of the enemy. Advancing alone under the continuous fire from other hostile emplacements, he employed similar means to smash 2 smaller positions in the immediate vicinity...

JULIAN, JOSEPH RODOLPH

Platoon Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve... Determined to force a breakthrough when Japanese troops occupying trenches and fortified positions on the left front laid down a terrific machinegun and mortar barrage in a desperate effort to halt his company's advance, P/Sgt. Julian quickly established his platoon's guns in strategic supporting positions, and then, acting on his own initiative, fearlessly moved forward to execute a 1-man assault on the nearest pillbox. Advancing alone, he hurled deadly demolition and white phosphorus grenades into the emplacement, killing 2 of the enemy and driving the remaining 5 out into the adjoining trench system. Seizing a discarded rifle, he jumped into the trench and dispatched the 5 before they could make an escape...

RUDOLPH, DONALD E.

Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company E, 20th Infantry, 6th Infantry Division. ... when his platoon was attacked by an enemy tank, he advanced under covering fire, climbed to the top of the tank and dropped a white phosphorus grenade through the turret, destroying the crew...

Please, Borscht, some crocodile tears for these fascisti forebears of the Islamists...

 

[Gringao]

Finally, we're getting somewehere.

What you say is true. I do expect more from America than I do from a a Gulf Tyranny.

Why would that be? Cannot the swarthy refrain from barbarism? Why the double standard, if not for reasons of ethnic bigotry or political opportunism?

That's why I 'run the length of my leash' when America copies Saddam's methods. In my opinion, these atrocities are a betrayel of the civilization that better men than me and you fought to create.

You disagree. You think that it's OK for America to abuse POWs and murder civilians.

This is why we'll never finish this argument - it's impossible to find common ground between these two positions.

For the record, America did not "copy" Saddam's methods. That much Hitchens's piece makes clear. Some rogue soldiers humiliated and abused prisoners and for that they have been and are being prosecuted. Saddam's lackeys tortured and murdered their charges with nary a prosecution in sight.

Can someone as hate-blind as you are see the difference between that which is prohibited and prosecuted versus that which is policy and rewarded? Between humiliation and murder?

 

[zipman]

If the choice is a record with a slap on the wrist as punishment and an acquittal with a $2 million legal price tag on it, which would you pick?

If I was innocent I would go for the trial rather than have my record tarnished.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

If I was innocent I would go for the trial rather than have my record tarnished.

And risk getting found guilty and hit with a nice chunk of prison time?

I agree with your sentiment but I have no clue what I would do if I were going to get put on trial for something I didnt do.

 

[Gringao]

If I was innocent I would go for the trial rather than have my record tarnished.

I might spend a hundred grand to avoid a minor rap that I was innocent of, but not two million. That would not only bury me, it would bury my family, too. No retirement, kids have to scrap to get to college, never get out of debt...all to save daddy's rep? I'd cop a plea, take the small fine or month in the pokey and go on with life.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

I might spend a hundred grand to avoid a minor rap that I was innocent of, but not two million. That would not only bury me, it would bury my family, too. No retirement, kids have to scrap to get to college, never get out of debt...all to save daddy's rep? I'd cop a plea, take the small fine or month in the pokey and go on with life.

Problem here is that to Libby that 2 million is probably equivalent to your 100k.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

No, but we are in "the last throes" of the debate!

Excellent!

And people say that nothing ever gets resolved in these debates.

Next up on the docket: Trying to democratize a country of 35 million ethnically divided people with lots of old scores to settle with 120,000 troops. Fucktarded? True or false.