Your "AHA!" moments...

[RhymeSmith]

Epiphanies - I've had the ususal ones, like realizing that I'm the only person responsible for my happiness (after years of waiting miserably for someone else to fix it); in school, it actually did help my grades to study the course materials and do homework (almost too late!); and marrying my highschool sweetheart wasn't the huge mistake I thought it was a few years back; but none of that is why I decided to post here.

I have given some time to heavy-duty consideration of the question your sensei raised, as quoted in your original post, and I think I may have at least the start of an answer.

It seems to me that both reasons and excuses, in the contest of your original post, are event-related. A reason is an attempt to explain causality, either for the occurence of an event, or for its failure to occur; while an excuse is supplication for pardon, either from yourself or another, for the occurrence of the event, or its failure. A reason may also be an excuse, or vice versa, but neither is necessarily the same as the other, as they have different purposes.

That's my take, for what it's worth.

-RhymeSmith

 

[BiBunny]

My thoughts are with you and your family, Keroin.

 

[MisterSir]

This simply does not compute; you must be using a form of logic with which the rest of humanity is completely unfamiliar.

If people tipped for above-average service rather than tipping regardless, the restaurant owners wouldn't be able to lowball their staff because they'd no longer have the safety of knowing that, whatever they offered, you people would make up the difference. Sounds reasonably simple.

 

[midwestyankee]

If people tipped for above-average service rather than tipping regardless, the restaurant owners wouldn't be able to lowball their staff because they'd no longer have the safety of knowing that, whatever they offered, you people would make up the difference. Sounds reasonably simple.

Except that that's not how things work and the people who work those jobs need the money now and not at some unpredictable point in the future.

What you say here sounds like a rationalization for selfish behavior.

 

[Keroin]

Epiphanies - I've had the ususal ones, like realizing that I'm the only person responsible for my happiness (after years of waiting miserably for someone else to fix it); in school, it actually did help my grades to study the course materials and do homework (almost too late!); and marrying my highschool sweetheart wasn't the huge mistake I thought it was a few years back; but none of that is why I decided to post here.

I have given some time to heavy-duty consideration of the question your sensei raised, as quoted in your original post, and I think I may have at least the start of an answer.

It seems to me that both reasons and excuses, in the contest of your original post, are event-related. A reason is an attempt to explain causality, either for the occurence of an event, or for its failure to occur; while an excuse is supplication for pardon, either from yourself or another, for the occurrence of the event, or its failure. A reason may also be an excuse, or vice versa, but neither is necessarily the same as the other, as they have different purposes.

That's my take, for what it's worth.

-RhymeSmith

That's a really good answer. Of course, I can't tell you if it's correct or not

My thoughts are with you and your family, Keroin.

Thanks BB. I'm chillaxed now. Just a little morning sucker punch. Nothing I can do until I hear back from K2 (my sister) and worrying is not productive.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

That sucks, yeah, but that's not my business. The system might be screwed, but I'm not going to pay because some cheap bastard won't pay his staff enough; I'm already paying for food and the service - because I've eaten in maybe two places that don't tack on a 15% service charge already - so I'm a) not paying for service twice and b) not taking on more costs.

There's not a lot different between you and me, really - you just set the bar lower.

Bolded statement #1: He doesn't because it's (again) government policy that he doesn't have to, and if he did, he'd raise the prices of his food to make it up!

Bolded statement #2: You're eating in some lower-middle to middle upscale places, then. Lower and upper scale restaurants normally don't add a service charge. It's only the middle scale restaurants who do that, because of a customer base who didn't tip servers enough for them to come out with at least minimum wage, and they were forced to do that because of the labor laws.

Please try that "smile" with your MD, or at the grocery store, or your landlord, or auto mechanic and see if that settlers the tab.

Never said it did, don't expect it to, but being polite doesn't take much effort and every so often, it makes the gears work just that little bit smoother.

Table service is hard work. It also takes a higher skill level then most of us understand. In addition these folks are working at times when the rest of the community is out relaxing - at lunch time, evenings, holidays, weekends.

Tipping is an arcane way of doing business, but, sadly, I don't expect it to change anytime soon.

Please, if possible, revisit your point of view. There folks are not submissives in service, they are professionals doing a job that keeps you out of the kitchen dealing directly with the cook yourself. If that is of no value to you, please go to fast food places and be sure to clean up your own table as you leave.

You may not believe this, but I do, and I seem to be the only person who realises trays don't actually belong on the tables. Speaking of fast food servers, they have more or less the same job, just with less walking about involved - and saying that, I'm seeing more and more occasions where certain items aren't quite ready when the entire order's made and the servers have delivered them to the customer's table. How many of the people sitting back and judging me for not tipping have ever considered giving them something?

I don't know about the others who have posted here and discussing this topic have considered that, but I not only have considered it, but attempted to do it. In most cases, it was turned down with a thank you and a polite "It was our fault you didn't get it with the rest of your food," or similar response.

It is not my intention to attack you personally. Way too many years in the food service industry have jaded my view. Thanks goddess I'm free of that now....

I agree strongly with all of Shank's bolded points above.

When traveling around Europe last month, I kept finding myself pleasantly surprised with the tipping customs in every country we visited. The tipping etiquette in most of the places we visited was to simply round up the bill, leaving a few coins on the table. Some places we went nobody expected a tip, though it was customary to leave a small tip for exceptional service. When I went to Japan two years ago, I was completely surprised that nobody tips there, and that if you leave money on a table, a waiter will run after you to return the money you "forgot." And the reason that it is customary to leave either a small tip, or no tip at all, in these foreign countries? Service people (waiters, taxi drivers, etc.) already make a living wage and do not rely on their customers' charity to pay their rent.

Ah, how civilized.

Bolded point agreed with and I'm grateful you pointed it out. Underlined point emphatically agreed with, and I'm sad that our (U.S.) culture is not as civilized as theirs. <Sigh>

You are an ingrateful dickweed.

And you're the reason the service people are getting shafted in the first place.

Good talk.

Completely disagreed with. Not ungrateful, I think, but not "educated" concerning the realities of a server's life. As for "dickweed," I'll have to disagree again. He's discussed the topic rationally and without personal attack on anyone, and merely stated his views. Sorry, Yank, got to call you on that one.

There's only one place I regularly tip - that's somewhere a) I go often enough that they know what I'm going to order without me having to say it, b) everybody's polite at the minimum, c) they're efficient and d) they don't stick me with a service charge to begin with. If other places could offer two of the latter three, maybe I'd feel differently.

If the "other places" you're going to don't offer at least b) and c), I hate to say it, but you're goin' to the wrong damn restaurants! I've gone to restaurants where employees were not polite - I left a minimal tip for the server AND notified management that a) I would not return, b) why, and c) that I would let everyone I knew that I wouldn't patronize that restaurant and why. As for "efficient," that's up to the individual's interpretation, but if I feel it affects my dining experience sufficiently negatively, I again notify management of a), b) and c) above, with specifics of the incidents or persons involved.

Seriously, decent food service management personnel do care when you give them that type of feedback, and will try to correct it. They'll also often offer you either a discount on your bill or a coupon for a discount for a future visit. If they don't offer either when you've given them valid feedback of that sort, definitely put it on your "no-go" list, and share the information with friends.

 

[Netzach]

Call me pink, but I'm not such a big tipper. If I think the server did a good job or had a good attitude - smiles go a long way - I'll toss in something, but an average job gets nothing. I might make an exception if it's their first day or for other extenuating circumstances, but it's not my problem if they're in the situation where tips are necessary for them to survive.

You are not in the US, right?

Here, they make 2 bucks an hour in NYC other than tips. There's no union, it's how they eat, it's not just applause.

Having read the rest of your posts, I'd say just do as the fucking Romans do if you come to Rome. If I'm in Paris, I tip when delighted, I read the freaking book before I go and I know how it works.

I always tip starbucks, I would tip fast food bring it to your car if they weren't going to get in trouble for taking it.

That said, it is so not the same thing as table service in a restaurant, having done forms of both.

 

[Keroin]

SW, step away from the bold button!

(Thanks for the antennae pointing, BTW)

 

[shy slave]

You are not in the US, right?

Here, they make 2 bucks an hour in NYC other than tips. There's no union, it's how they eat, it's not just applause.

Like me, he is in the UK.

But last year several major chains were blasted for paying below minimum wage and expecting tips to make the difference.

In the UK a tip is not a part of the deal the way it is in the US, it should be, but it isn't.

Like prices in your stores are minus tax, and ours includes it; differences occur and culture plays a part in that.

Despite their being an outcry about major chains not even meeting minimum wage, it did not make a huge difference,and to my knowledge (but willing to be proved wrong), nothing has changed,

As MisterSir is currently unemployed, he may see it differently if he cannot get into DoD and ends up waiting tables.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

You are not in the US, right?

Here, they make 2 bucks an hour in NYC other than tips. There's no union, it's how they eat, it's not just applause.

Having read the rest of your posts, I'd say just do as the fucking Romans do if you come to Rome.

O
M
G...

How did I miss the fact that MS is in England?

Sheesh. MisterSir, I apologize. For some reason, I had you (mentally) pegged as a U.S. college age type, and presumed you were speaking of U.S. restaurants.

Just about everything you said, when viewed from a Eurocentric viewpoint, is correct and understandable. As for dining over here, should you come, please remember and consider the points made on this topic, and follow the final piece of advice in Netz's post.

 

[Shankara20]

Sorry, hijacking my own thread.

Sigh.

**sending what healing light I can to all involved**

 

[Sir_Winston54]

SW, step away from the bold button!

(Thanks for the antennae pointing, BTW)

NO! It's one of the few ways I can give some semblance of vocal intonation and indicate emphasis to reduce the potential for misunderstanding.

 

[MisterSir]

It's true, I'm not American and I don't claim to know a lot about the life of a server, but I have a hard time caring. Probably makes me a couple of things (selfish? Yeah. I'm not running a charity. Ungrateful? You be the judge of that). I get that they don't make shit and that the government supports the policy (which is screwed-up to begin with), but I tip for good service. If they're making so little and they're so dependent on tips to survive, one might think of that as a damn good incentive to work.

Bottom line: I don't care about tipping cultures or any of that bull, doing the bare minimum and expecting extra money for it is ridiculous. If that makes me selfish, then selfish be I.

As MisterSir is currently unemployed, he may see it differently if he cannot get into DoD and ends up waiting tables.

Oh, give me a break. You don't even know me and you think I'm a hypocrite, have I given you reason to think that?

How did I miss the fact that MS is in England?

No biggie.

 

[shy slave]

It's true, I'm not American and I don't claim to know a lot about the life of a server, but I have a hard time caring. Probably makes me a couple of things (selfish? Yeah. I'm not running a charity. Ungrateful? You be the judge of that). I get that they don't make shit and that the government supports the policy (which is screwed-up to begin with), but I tip for good service. If they're making so little and they're so dependent on tips to survive, one might think of that as a damn good incentive to work.

Bottom line: I don't care about tipping cultures or any of that bull, doing the bare minimum and expecting extra money for it is ridiculous. If that makes me selfish, then selfish be I.

There speaks an umemployed graduate who doesn't want to work tables and would rather complain he is unemployed.

As a Uk person I would agree with you, you are selfish, and a great deal more, but lets stick with selfish

 

[Netzach]

That's the equivalent of the British tourist screaming "speak English dammit" to the Spaniards, but whatever.

 

[jockdom]

I've worked in the food industry, my one bit of advice is, don't be a prick to the people who serve you . I've seen what happens to those kind of peoples food .

 

[Netzach]

I've worked in the food industry, my one bit of advice is, don't be a prick to the people who serve you . I've seen what happens to those kind of peoples food .

Logic attacks again.
I also try and make it worth my hairdresser's while.

 

[BiBunny]

I promise, if anyone who doesn't tip had waited tables for 12 hours a day like I've had to do in the past, they'd certainly see it differently. It's a goddamned miserable job, particularly for someone like me who's not outgoing and perky, but you do what you have to do.

 

[shy slave]

I've worked in the food industry, my one bit of advice is, don't be a prick to the people who serve you . I've seen what happens to those kind of peoples food .

Now that has made me laugh for the first time in days

I know your a taken man and I am happy for you and BF but.... smack on the lips just for you JD!



And another one (I hope she isn't looking)

 

[MisterSir]

There speaks an umemployed graduate who doesn't want to work tables and would rather complain he is unemployed.

As a Uk person I would agree with you, you are selfish, and a great deal more, but lets stick with selfish

I have been graduated for less than a month. I'm still not even technically graduated. In that time, I have applied for 46 suitable vacancies and have two interviews in the near future. For reasons you don't need to know and I have no desire to tell you, I am completely unsuited for retail, and most of my so-called skills and work experience has been administrative in nature, hence why I'm applying for similar positions.

Exactly what the fuck about all that makes me somebody who would rather complain about being unemployed than waiting tables? I'm actually almost offended.

Maybe we should move away from this topic and back to what the thread was originally about before somebody else acts like an idiot. I've had my turn and clearly the idiot ball's been passed around, can we throw it out of the window and get back to epiphanies?

 

[jockdom]

Now that has made me laugh for the first time in days

I know your a taken man and I am happy for you and BF but.... smack on the lips just for you JD!



And another one (I hope she isn't looking)

I'm glad I made you smile Shy, thats about the only worthwhile thing I've done today apart fae getting wet!

 

[Cattypuss]

God. Some of this makes me want to pretend not to be British.

MS - people with your attitude deserve to end up stuck in minimum-wage jobs in which whether someone tips or not makes the difference between whether they can afford to switch the central heating on or not in the evenings.

Giving tips to the low-paid is not "running a charity"; it's acting like a half-decent human being.

And FYI if you want that job at the "Department of Defense", I'd suggest you get your facts straight first.

(1) It's "defence", not "defense".

(2) It's the Ministry of Defence, not the Department.

(3) Whitehall is an address. Plenty of grey civil service jobs in even greyer Government Departments are based there.

 

[jockdom]

God. Some of this makes me want to pretend not to be British.

MS - people with your attitude deserve to end up stuck in minimum-wage jobs in which whether someone tips or not makes the difference between whether they can afford to switch the central heating on or not in the evenings.

Giving tips to the low-paid is not "running a charity"; it's acting like a half-decent human being.

And FYI if you want that job at the "Department of Defense", I'd suggest you get your facts straight first.

(1) It's "defence", not "defense".

(2) It's the Ministry of Defence, not the Department.

(3) Whitehall is an address. Plenty of grey civil service jobs in even greyer Government Departments are based there.

Bravo.

 

[shy slave]

I have been graduated for less than a month. I'm still not even technically graduated. In that time, I have applied for 46 suitable vacancies and have two interviews in the near future. For reasons you don't need to know and I have no desire to tell you, I am completely unsuited for retail, and most of my so-called skills and work experience has been administrative in nature, hence why I'm applying for similar positions.

Exactly what the fuck about all that makes me somebody who would rather complain about being unemployed than waiting tables? I'm actually almost offended.

Maybe we should move away from this topic and back to what the thread was originally about before somebody else acts like an idiot. I've had my turn and clearly the idiot ball's been passed around, can we throw it out of the window and get back to epiphanies?

Note to self: Must try harder.

Cattypuss: Ditto on what JD said.

 

[intothewoods]

I've never waited tables and I've always tipped well. I did have quite a few behind the counter server jobs.

Totally understand the U.S./European difference though. I'm in the U.S., and my folks always tipped 15-20%. So I always tipped 20% or thereabouts. You would have to be a really terrible waiter to not get tipped by me. In fact, I can't remember ever not tipping.

Anyway, so then I met Mister Man. Mister Man is a huge tipper, unless the service was really mediocre or terrible. And he's not loaded or anything. I have to say - I have never been treated as well as we're treated in our regular place. They remember my drink order! I think this is how mafia wives feel, or something. Anyway, it's a good place, the waitstaff work their tushes off, so why not. We actually don't go out very often anyway.