“Realism” in writing sexual relations

[Bramblethorn]

No, it was them getting off on gang rape while pretending to show something about a time period.

I wonder why it is that Historical Accuracy Demands It always seems to be about stuff like rape scenes and never about "most people have bad teeth" or "more soldiers die of bloody diarrhoea than in battle".

 

[shakna]

I wonder why it is that Historical Accuracy Demands It always seems to be about stuff like rape scenes and never about "most people have bad teeth" or "more soldiers die of bloody diarrhoea than in battle".

Well, if we were demanding true historical accuracy, we wouldn't be caring about bad teeth unless you're talking about the relatively recent times after access to sugar became commonplace. At least after the collapse of the Dutch East India Company. Most people before that had better teeth than we do.

However, Historical Accuracy Demands always seems to come from those directors who like to put their youngest actress with their main star, and pretend that romance is all lovely and dandy, whilst the pair of actors are extremely creeped out.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Well, if we were demanding true historical accuracy, we wouldn't be caring about bad teeth unless you're talking about the relatively recent times after access to sugar became commonplace. At least after the collapse of the Dutch East India Company. Most people before that had better teeth than we do.

Depends what one counts as "bad teeth". Lower incidence of tooth decay, yes, but a greater chance of losing the tooth when it did occur. Much more wear, back when people consumed a lot of stone-ground flour that still had stone dust in it; and more crooked teeth (how many Hollywood stars haven't had theirs whitened and straightened?)

However, Historical Accuracy Demands always seems to come from those directors who like to put their youngest actress with their main star, and pretend that romance is all lovely and dandy, whilst the pair of actors are extremely creeped out.

...or at least half of the pair. *scowls in the direction of Frank Langella*

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I haven't seen the movie, either, but your post got me curious about it, so I checked the IMDB site for their write-up. The creators wanted to show how brutal that time period was, contrasting it with fantasies like "Camelot," and I guess they succeeded in conveying the reality of barbarianism. But when they got to that bath scene, reality left the building.

Yes.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Well, if we were demanding true historical accuracy, we wouldn't be caring about bad teeth unless you're talking about the relatively recent times after access to sugar became commonplace. At least after the collapse of the Dutch East India Company. Most people before that had better teeth than we do.

However, Historical Accuracy Demands always seems to come from those directors who like to put their youngest actress with their main star, and pretend that romance is all lovely and dandy, whilst the pair of actors are extremely creeped o

Depends what one counts as "bad teeth". Lower incidence of tooth decay, yes, but a greater chance of losing the tooth when it did occur. Much more wear, back when people consumed a lot of stone-ground flour that still had stone dust in it; and more crooked teeth (how many Hollywood stars haven't had theirs whitened and straightened?)



...or at least half of the pair. *scowls in the direction of Frank Langella*

How did we get around to talking about people’s teeth?? somebody ought to write about it!

 

[Mepher]

In my experience as a female author, sometimes men write women poorly, sometimes women write women poorly. When writing smut there is arguabely a bigger disconnect in gender than normal, simply because repeating what you've read/reasearched is likely to be different from writing from personal experience. That being said, I believe any sufficiently skilled author (especially with the help of a skilled editor or team supporting that author) can write convincingly outside of their personal experience. And then when dealing with sexual gratification, kinks and fetishes varry so much that I don't think anything can truely be an unrealistic depiction of such.

 

[shakna]

How did we get around to talking about people’s teeth?? somebody ought to write about it!

Oh, it's so very easy to nerd snipe an anthropology major. So very easy.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Oh, it's so very easy to nerd snipe an anthropology major. So very easy.

 

[jehoram]

I believe any sufficiently skilled author (especially with the help of a skilled editor or team supporting that author) can write convincingly outside of their personal experience.

Having that outside "reality checker," be it an editor or a beta reader, can really make the difference. I wrote something about that about ten years ago, and I see no reason to change a word.

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-right-editor

 

[Maxiine]

I wonder why it is that Historical Accuracy Demands It always seems to be about stuff like rape scenes...

Possibly because much of what academically passes for "history" is theft and organized theft.
Rape is theft, and gang rape is organized theft.

....never about "most people have bad teeth" or "more soldiers die of bloody diarrhoea than in battle".

Napoleon did have some innovative tactical ideas on how to more seamlessly integrate different military assets. But armies had done so in a less efficient form since before Leonidas met Xerxes at Thermopylae. Napoleon's true gift was in organizing France to support the Armee-- through public health and greatly reducing infanticide-- and in increasing the Armee's state of readiness, through field sanitation and surgery.

 

[Athalia]

No, it was them getting off on gang rape while pretending to show something about a time period.
Men can only glorify rape, because its all they want to do, and they wish they could bring those days back
Oh, wait, they are coming back.

If you are referring to the fact that a politician can brag about grabbing women by the pussy and still end up getting elected President, I think you have a point there.

 

[Athalia]

Seriously, why don't you follow your own advice and first watch the film in question before attempting to judge it without any basis for judgement? There's no SS plot device in the film's script, though—as pretty much all of Verhoeven's films—it depicts the sexes in a way that rather runs counter to today's trending "gender discourse," so much is true.

Besides LdyHoneyBee didn't recount the plot correctly, for Agnes (played by Jennifer Jason Leigh) is in fact not raped by the whole gang precisely because Martin (played by Rutger Hauer), after having her first (a quite ambiguous scene by the way), stops the gang from raping her by setting fire to the encampment. Hence she's not "serially raped," and thus there's no basis to your argument at all.

It's a gritty film, so make sure to watch the uncut version of it!

My apologies, then... I was only going by what Honey Bee described the plot to be. That was my "basis for judgement," and you are correct in saying that it wasn't enough.

 

[lovecraft68]

If you are referring to the fact that a politician can brag about grabbing women by the pussy and still end up getting elected President, I think you have a point there.

No argument, but I'll also be a shit and toss in the same people who bring that up have no issue with BC being a frequent visitor to pedo island and with a long list of accusers himself. And how about those Cuomo brothers? What a pair.

People talk about the divide in this country, well, let me give you hope that there is one thing all men can agree on. Regardless of political affiliation, race, color, religion, rich, poor, married, single the tie that binds is men from all those groups abuse women and all agree its always the woman's fault, the ones who don't still stand by and do nothing to help.

Hence my point then when dealing with the topic of rape they all need to STFU unless they're going to be honest and admit they think its great.

 

[Athalia]

No argument, but I'll also be a shit and toss in the same people who bring that up have no issue with BC being a frequent visitor to pedo island and with a long list of accusers himself. And how about those Cuomo brothers? What a pair.

Forgive my obtuseness, but whom are you referring to as "BC"? I'm sure it's not the pseudo-caveman in the comic strips.

People talk about the divide in this country, well, let me give you hope that there is one thing all men can agree on. Regardless of political affiliation, race, color, religion, rich, poor, married, single the tie that binds is men from all those groups abuse women and all agree its always the woman's fault, the ones who don't still stand by and do nothing to help.

I know men who don't fit into that stereotype, but will grant you that the attitude you describe can be seen in all those categories, and that there is pressure to conform to those stereotypes. In our legal system in the US regarding rape cases, the burden of proof is on the victim to prove that she is not the one to blame for provoking the attack. I suspect that this is also the case in other countries as well.

 

[SimonDoom]

the burden of proof is on the victim to prove that she is not the one to blame for provoking the attack. I suspect that this is also the case in other countries as well.

This isn't quite true. The single most important tenet of Anglo-American criminal jurisprudence is the presumption of innocence. It applies regardless of the type of crime. It necessarily means that in a rape case the accused is presumed to be innocent and that the state, probably relying to a considerable degree on the testimony of the alleged victim, bears the burden of proof and must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Does that presumption sometimes result in injustice? Of course, it does. Guilty people sometimes go free. But it's essential for a civilized society, nonetheless, and it does NOT mean, by itself, that the system favors rapists over victims. It means simply that we generally believe the notion that it's better for ten guilty people to go free than for one innocent person to go to prison (the ratio may vary but I think most people more or less believe this principle).

Rape, especially date rape, is not an easy crime to prove, and it shouldn't be an easy crime to prove, because you can't have a system that presumes sex to be nonconsensual and puts the burden of proof on the accused to prove that sex was consensual (think about it: the opposite would mean presuming that every sex act was rape unless the accused met the burden of proving otherwise). The state, in a criminal proceeding, or the accuser, in a civil proceeding, must bear the burden of proof on all the elements of the crime. Yes, it results in injustice, sometimes. But that's the price we pay for having a criminal justice system that recognizes the rights of the individual.

In a typical rape case, it's not quite true to say the victim must prove she wasn't to blame for the attack. It's more accurate to say that the state must prove, relying upon the victim's testimony, that the accused had sex with the victim without the victim's consent, taking all of the facts and circumstances of the encounter into account. Historically, sexist stereotypes have played a big role, i.e, "She didn't put up much of a fight, so she must have wanted it," or "She wore a short skirt, so she must have wanted it." There's still some of that in these cases, but much less than in the past.

 

[Lifestyle66]

"...the burden of proof is on the victim to prove that she is not the one to blame for provoking the attack. I suspect that this is also the case in other countries as well."

The point is not about "blame" but to prove it was an attack, rather than consensual.

There are those who would claim to have been attacked for whatever reason. And the fact there are those who do so as a means of revenge or entrapment makes the system what it is.

 

[XerXesXu]

Doesn't matter, he left town abruptly in the middle of the night a few days later.

And, was never seen again?

 

[XerXesXu]

Not in that town. I think he lives in Georgia now.

As good as dead then.

 

[Auden James]

My apologies, then...

Have you watched the film by now?

 

[Maxiine]

Forgive my obtuseness, but whom are you referring to as "BC"? I'm sure it's not the pseudo-caveman in the comic strips.

42...and not Jackie Robinson...

35 at least liked cute ones...

 

[Athalia]

42...and not Jackie Robinson...

Ah. Understood.