A Fantasy : Being A Gangbang Whore In Motel Room

[Masters_aphrodite]

a bite in the bum

i have learned not to make such judgements, as they may (and have) come to bite me in the bum later.

ownedsubgal, i know exactly what you mean. If i commented that something someone did was dumb, etc. just because Master does not do that 'something' at the moment does not mean in the future that He may not change His mind. If Master did change His mind then i would have been lumping Him in with the group of people i was refering as dumb, etc....that would not bode well for me...lol. Master has been known to change His mind or view of something, but that is His choice.

 

[catalina_francisco]

ownedsubgal, i know exactly what you mean. If i commented that something someone did was dumb, etc. just because Master does not do that 'something' at the moment does not mean in the future that He may not change His mind. If Master did change His mind then i would have been lumping Him in with the group of people i was refering as dumb, etc....that would not bode well for me...lol. Master has been known to change His mind or view of something, but that is His choice.

Of course I can play devil's advocate here and ask, what do you do if your Master says such people are stupid, dumb, make bad decisions? Do you dispute his view to his face there and then (which IMHO is not slave like) based on your view he may change his mind in the future and you don't want to then be seen to have called him stupid etc. at a future point in time which may or may not happen (thus get it over with and basically tell him he is stupid now)?

What you are both missing here is that though your Master's may at this point in time think it okay for your relationship, so you share and reflect that view, mine holds the opposite view for our relationship so to dispute it IMHO would indeed be unslavelike and ridiculous, and no more correct than your own opinion here is, no? It comes back to those discussions you have before committing and both having your own life experiences, your own knowledge, and your own values which then connect as opposed to kneeling and saying 'tell me what to say and think Master, and I will do it'.

BTW, Amo changes his mind on things from time to time, but not on a whim or without thought and research, and certainly does not welcome my trying to second guess what changes may take place, thus disobeying him or reflecting a different view in the present based on what I might think will happen in the future.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

Of course I can play devil's advocate here and ask, what do you do if your Master says such people are stupid, dumb, make bad decisions? Do you dispute his view to his face there and then (which IMHO is not slave like) based on your view he may change his mind in the future and you don't want to then be seen to have called him stupid etc. at a future point in time which may or may not happen (thus get it over with and basically tell him he is stupid now)?

What you are both missing here is that though your Master's may at this point in time think it okay for your relationship, so you share and reflect that view, mine holds the opposite view for our relationship so to dispute it IMHO would indeed be unslavelike and ridiculous, and no more correct than your own opinion here is, no? It comes back to those discussions you have before committing and both having your own life experiences, your own knowledge, and your own values which then connect as opposed to kneeling and saying 'tell me what to say and think Master, and I will do it'.

BTW, Amo changes his mind on things from time to time, but not on a whim or without thought and research, and certainly does not welcome my trying to second guess what changes may take place, thus disobeying him or reflecting a different view in the present based on what I might think will happen in the future.

Catalina

no Master i'm sure wishes his slave to "second guess" him. and of course i would not ever dispute my Master. if Daddy says someone is stupid, ignorant, etc., i just listen. it is not necessary (or desired) for me to throw in my 2 cents. for one, he just does not find it very appropriate/respecful for a slave to make such criticisms of people, even if i am only repeating his own views. second, as aphrodite pointed out, he may change his mind about anything @ any time. what was his hard limit last year may now be an everyday part of life. basically, it's not my place to judge someone for their needs and desires, particularly a man, one way or another. it's not about playing "what if", it's about minding my place.

 

[catalina_francisco]

no Master i'm sure wishes his slave to "second guess" him. and of course i would not ever dispute my Master. if Daddy says someone is stupid, ignorant, etc., i just listen. it is not necessary (or desired) for me to throw in my 2 cents. for one, he just does not find it very appropriate/respecful for a slave to make such criticisms of people, even if i am only repeating his own views. second, as aphrodite pointed out, he may change his mind about anything @ any time. what was his hard limit last year may now be an everyday part of life. basically, it's not my place to judge someone for their needs and desires, particularly a man, one way or another. it's not about playing "what if", it's about minding my place.

OK, but I always understood you to say you naturally reflected, or at least supportetd your Master's views in public as part of your role as a slave. I guess you differ a lot to us in that we do talk, he does express opinions and expects me to also, but never would want me to not reflect or support such an opinion he expressed and/or felt important enough, in a public forum or amongst other people. He certainly would take it as needing addressing if he thought the reason I kept my mouth shut and seemingly avoided having any view was because I expected he might change his POV at some time.....but you didn't do that anyway as despite saying he does not see it as fit for you to have a criticism or opinion even if he supports it, you did just that here I thought....unless it is only your opinion which I did not think.

Amo's take on it is if he said the sky is blue today and then next week wanted me to agree it was green, that is what I would do, not choose to say nothing so I didn't have to change my opinion when he did, or appear to in the eyes of others....think he would see that as my judging his opinions as probably questionable and unreliable and would not go down too well as it would be seen as disrespectful and untrusting of him. Then if he didn't want me expressing any view at all, my own or his, he would not let me post as to any thoughts or opinions on a public forum.

I think most Dominants in a 24/7 relationship change their mind and rules several times throughout the relationship...otherwise the whole thing stagnates as do they. In our relationship that means I also adapt and change according to his wishes, not try and maintain neutrality so there is no need to change at anytime. That is part of the challenge....learning to be adaptable according to the wishes of your owner, for your owner, and leaving no doubt in the minds of others as to whether you do honour him and his opinions despite whatever difficulties that may create for you personally in anyway. I guess to me it just seems presumptuous for a slave, and exercising control, to decide to not openly own her Master's views or opinions on the grounds the slave decides it better not to incase he changes his view somewhere, sometime. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding your point totally.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

OK, but I always understood you to say you naturally reflected, or at least supportetd your Master's views in public as part of your role as a slave. I guess you differ a lot to us in that we do talk, he does express opinions and expects me to also, but never would want me to not reflect or support such an opinion he expressed and/or felt important enough, in a public forum or amongst other people. He certainly would take it as needing addressing if he thought the reason I kept my mouth shut and seemingly avoided having any view was because I expected he might change his POV at some time.....but you didn't do that anyway as despite saying he does not see it as fit for you to have a criticism or opinion even if he supports it, you did just that here I thought....unless it is only your opinion which I did not think.

Amo's take on it is if he said the sky is blue today and then next week wanted me to agree it was green, that is what I would do, not choose to say nothing so I didn't have to change my opinion when he did, or appear to in the eyes of others....think he would see that as my judging his opinions as probably questionable and unreliable and would not go down too well as it would be seen as disrespectful and untrusting of him. Then if he didn't want me expressing any view at all, my own or his, he would not let me post as to any thoughts or opinions on a public forum.

I think most Dominants in a 24/7 relationship change their mind and rules several times throughout the relationship...otherwise the whole thing stagnates as do they. In our relationship that means I also adapt and change according to his wishes, not try and maintain neutrality so there is no need to change at anytime. That is part of the challenge....learning to be adaptable according to the wishes of your owner, for your owner, and leaving no doubt in the minds of others as to whether you do honour him and his opinions despite whatever difficulties that may create for you personally in anyway. I guess to me it just seems presumptuous for a slave, and exercising control, to decide to not openly own her Master's views or opinions on the grounds the slave decides it better not to incase he changes his view somewhere, sometime. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding your point totally.

Catalina

lol yes. it is really not so complicated. we (slaves), are each as our Owners wish us to be. perhaps your Master enjoys engaging in respectful debate w/his property...my Master does not. of cours i have my own mind, own ideas, opinions, etc., and my Master appreciates these qualities very much. we do actually talk...lol. but he does not treat me as an equal partner, who he can playfully argue with. in conversation, my opinion is expressed when he asks for it only. when communicating w/others, such as online boards and such, i can express opinions freely, but never would i express an opinion or belief which opposed his own. He considers that to be a matter of respect. it doesn't look good in his view for a Master and slave to openly express opposing views, it gives the appearance of lack of control and good training on the Master's part. so that is just the way things are for us.

but we were speaking specifically of critcizing others (i.e. folks who willingly have unsafe sex). this is different from a simple opinion or belief. i've learned that such criticizing is really a form of looking down on others, and as a slave my Master does not feel it's appropriate for me to place myself above anyone else. it's also not conducive to keeping an open mind, which is something he values in a slave. so yes he can call someone all sorts of idiot, ridiculous, dumb, whatever. but if i were to open my mouth in agreement i'd get a firm slap in the face, and he'd be very disappointed in me. i'm not presuming or controlling anything, just conducting myself in mind and action as he demands.

a quick example...say my Master felt as yours did regarding sexual sharing and protection...naturally it would be expected of me to say: "for health purposes, my Master does not believe in sharing w/out condoms and other precautions being in place"...however he would not wish me to negatively judge those who did things differently, i.e. "those wo don't use condoms are stupid"...even if those were his very words. just would not be mindful of my place in his view.

 

[Feelfreetotouch]

Wouldn't a 5 star hotel seem more Taboo-- getting those high thread count sheets dirty?

 

[Netzach]

OK, but I always understood you to say you naturally reflected, or at least supportetd your Master's views in public as part of your role as a slave. I guess you differ a lot to us in that we do talk, he does express opinions and expects me to also, but never would want me to not reflect or support such an opinion he expressed and/or felt important enough, in a public forum or amongst other people. He certainly would take it as needing addressing if he thought the reason I kept my mouth shut and seemingly avoided having any view was because I expected he might change his POV at some time.....but you didn't do that anyway as despite saying he does not see it as fit for you to have a criticism or opinion even if he supports it, you did just that here I thought....unless it is only your opinion which I did not think.

Amo's take on it is if he said the sky is blue today and then next week wanted me to agree it was green, that is what I would do, not choose to say nothing so I didn't have to change my opinion when he did, or appear to in the eyes of others....think he would see that as my judging his opinions as probably questionable and unreliable and would not go down too well as it would be seen as disrespectful and untrusting of him. Then if he didn't want me expressing any view at all, my own or his, he would not let me post as to any thoughts or opinions on a public forum.

I think most Dominants in a 24/7 relationship change their mind and rules several times throughout the relationship...otherwise the whole thing stagnates as do they. In our relationship that means I also adapt and change according to his wishes, not try and maintain neutrality so there is no need to change at anytime. That is part of the challenge....learning to be adaptable according to the wishes of your owner, for your owner, and leaving no doubt in the minds of others as to whether you do honour him and his opinions despite whatever difficulties that may create for you personally in anyway. I guess to me it just seems presumptuous for a slave, and exercising control, to decide to not openly own her Master's views or opinions on the grounds the slave decides it better not to incase he changes his view somewhere, sometime. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding your point totally.

Catalina

Jeez, I can't remember who *I* called an idiot last week, let alone will I remember if Harvey calls them an idiot this week or not.

 

[Etoile]

ownedsubgal, i know exactly what you mean. If i commented that something someone did was dumb, etc. just because Master does not do that 'something' at the moment does not mean in the future that He may not change His mind. If Master did change His mind then i would have been lumping Him in with the group of people i was refering as dumb, etc....that would not bode well for me...lol. Master has been known to change His mind or view of something, but that is His choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that you could never think of somebody as dumb, stupid, etc. because your Master might someday be in a similar situation to that person?

 

[graceanne]

Jeez, I can't remember who *I* called an idiot last week, let alone will I remember if Harvey calls them an idiot this week or not.

Can you remember who you called an idiot this week?

 

[Netzach]

Can you remember who you called an idiot this week?

uhhh no.

I can't keep blaming prednisone forever either, I simply just don't know.

Sorry whoever, I didn't mean it, probably.

 

[Etoile]

lol yes. it is really not so complicated. we (slaves), are each as our Owners wish us to be. perhaps your Master enjoys engaging in respectful debate w/his property...my Master does not.

Ah! I think you've hit the nail on the head here. My Daddy tried to take the path you and your Daddy take, osg. I would say it was even a little more severe in that in public I was not permitted to speak at all (could not look others in the eye either). We tried that for a little while, and I had a bit of fun with it (it was a challenge for me), but Daddy decided e didn't like it. So we went more to the other side of the spectrum, where Catalina is. At home we have talks about relationship issues in which I am expected to be frank (being poly isn't easy), and when we're in a restaurant I am allowed to chat about a topic that interests us, etc. And yet I find that when we do disagree, I still speak in a deferential manner. I use a lot of "might" and "possibly" and "seems to me" because I know I could always be wrong.

 

[Etoile]

uhhh no.

I can't keep blaming prednisone forever either, I simply just don't know.

Sorry whoever, I didn't mean it, probably.

ACK prednisone. Been there, done that, gained the weight. Ugh!

 

[graceanne]

uhhh no.

I can't keep blaming prednisone forever either, I simply just don't know.

Sorry whoever, I didn't mean it, probably.

I was just teasing. If you've called anyone an idiot this week, I don't know about it.

And why not? I do? I figure that I've been off the pred for several months now, but my heart rate is still up, my weight is still up, and my face still resembles a moon. I get to blame the predisone as long as it's still affecting my body. So there.

 

[Netzach]

I was just teasing. If you've called anyone an idiot this week, I don't know about it.

And why not? I do? I figure that I've been off the pred for several months now, but my heart rate is still up, my weight is still up, and my face still resembles a moon. I get to blame the predisone as long as it's still affecting my body. So there.

OK, since I still look like a life raft blown up...

IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS.

To pull it all back on topic, I like that I can shut H the fuck up whenever I want by telling him to shut up. It's nice. Like my slave, I also can't predict the future, so I can't possibly imagine holding him accountable for opinions that neither of us may hold a year from now. That just seems really petty to me, like you are lying in wait for your slave to fuck up, or setting up impossible snares with which to catch them. That seems more abusive to me than a hard kick when they're down.

But that's just my personal take on it.

 

[graceanne]

OK, since I still look like a life raft blown up...

IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS.

Do you feel better?

 

[Netzach]

Do you feel better?

About what? *forgets*

 

[Masters_aphrodite]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that you could never think of somebody as dumb, stupid, etc. because your Master might someday be in a similar situation to that person?

That is incorrect. Let me try to better explain...example if someone posted that they practiced "such and such" even if i thought it was dumb or they were an idiot i would not verbally state it. First of all it is not my place to make that comment about someone i do not know and more importantly later down the road Master could decide that He wanted to practice "such and such". Now that means i have just lumped Master in the category which i stated anyone practicing "such and such" is an idiot. Master is far from an idiot as He does not do anything without thinking it completely through and looking at all angles. This is what has made Him so successful in life. LOL..i hope i explained that and did not twist it too much as it is getting a little late here.

 

[Etoile]

That is incorrect. Let me try to better explain...example if someone posted that they practiced "such and such" even if i thought it was dumb or they were an idiot i would not verbally state it. First of all it is not my place to make that comment about someone i do not know and more importantly later down the road Master could decide that He wanted to practice "such and such". Now that means i have just lumped Master in the category which i stated anyone practicing "such and such" is an idiot. Master is far from an idiot as He does not do anything without thinking it completely through and looking at all angles. This is what has made Him so successful in life. LOL..i hope i explained that and did not twist it too much as it is getting a little late here.

No, it was pretty much clear to me. Just a little I am still confused about.

So it's okay for you to think that somebody is an idiot because of some action, as long as you don't say it?

I can't help but think this is being overcautious. I know everybody is different, but just as your Master might someday become whatever doesn't mean that you will still at that time think that whatever is stupid. For example, I think drinking and driving is pretty dumb, so I'll use that as an example. To not be able to say "drinking and driving is dumb" because my dominant might someday drink and drive just seems excessive. I guess it's just too different to my own situation and I can't seem to understand.

I do want to throw in that I feel like this makes me less of a slave because I don't feel this way. Like I'm not wholly given over to the slavery, or something. (Daddy and I talked about this recently and we do agree that I am not really just submissive, that I am a slave as we see it.)

 

[Masters_aphrodite]

No, it was pretty much clear to me. Just a little I am still confused about.

So it's okay for you to think that somebody is an idiot because of some action, as long as you don't say it?

I can't help but think this is being overcautious. I know everybody is different, but just as your Master might someday become whatever doesn't mean that you will still at that time think that whatever is stupid. For example, I think drinking and driving is pretty dumb, so I'll use that as an example. To not be able to say "drinking and driving is dumb" because my dominant might someday drink and drive just seems excessive. I guess it's just too different to my own situation and I can't seem to understand.

I do want to throw in that I feel like this makes me less of a slave because I don't feel this way. Like I'm not wholly given over to the slavery, or something. (Daddy and I talked about this recently and we do agree that I am not really just submissive, that I am a slave as we see it.)

For me yes it is as the last thing i would ever want to do would feel as if i have disrespected Master in some way (even if unintentional).

Maybe it is overcautious, but i think a lot of it has to do with knowing how i would feel later and feeling as if i was disrespectful. i think you are correct that different situations do play a part as well.

i do not think it means that you are holding back in any way. i think it is just the difference in dynamics of the relationships. It sounds as if you have a very wise Daddy. It is nice to see that i am not the only one that also refers to Master as Daddy *smiles*.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No, it was pretty much clear to me. Just a little I am still confused about.

So it's okay for you to think that somebody is an idiot because of some action, as long as you don't say it?

I can't help but think this is being overcautious. I know everybody is different, but just as your Master might someday become whatever doesn't mean that you will still at that time think that whatever is stupid. For example, I think drinking and driving is pretty dumb, so I'll use that as an example. To not be able to say "drinking and driving is dumb" because my dominant might someday drink and drive just seems excessive. I guess it's just too different to my own situation and I can't seem to understand.

I do want to throw in that I feel like this makes me less of a slave because I don't feel this way. Like I'm not wholly given over to the slavery, or something. (Daddy and I talked about this recently and we do agree that I am not really just submissive, that I am a slave as we see it.)

LOL, I am totally confused too, and like you Etoile I respect difference but am not getting the same message in return. It seems to me, apart from the message I am getting that I am not slavish enough to be classed a slave, that though some slaves claim to not have an opinion, they then say they do but don't voice it....but also they will not voice an opposing opinion to their Master publicly because it would shame him, and also they will not voice his opinion publicly (even though here they have but say they haven't) because he might change his mind somewhere down the line so then they would be lumping him in with his at the moment opposers which to me is deceptive to the Master and I would think distancing from the Master's rules and opinions.... and still saying he could be an idiot or whatever because the slave thinks that opinion could change to those he opposes in viewpoint right now. Then that the Master gives a lot of thought to any decision/opinion before making it....duh? isn't that what I said about my own Amo..and doesan't that statement then say if he is thought by the slave to be maybe going to change to the opposite view in the future that perhaps somewhere in that slave's subconscious they are questioning the sense in the present decision?

ROFL, guess someone here is being chased internationally for his high professional skills that can't seem to be matched as far as these companies and countries are concerned because he just ain't as smart as these other Master's. Give me mine anyday who by the way osg, does not treat me as an equal but also does enjoy me for who I am enough to make sure he does all possible to make sure we continue a long time, God willing. What you mistake as treating as an equal is IMHO a smart Dominant who found someone who had assets apart from just sexually, which he could utilise in various areas to improve his quality of life and his life, as well as have many sexual adventures with. It is quite simple really...service across the board. Thing I really like though...I'm not perfect so you have me there M_Aphrodite and osg, but it gives me something to work toward each day.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

and doesan't that statement then say if he is thought by the slave to be maybe going to change to the opposite view in the future that perhaps somewhere in that slave's subconscious they are questioning the sense in the present decision?

Ooooh, very nice.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What Is A Slave?

I actually think where the issue of why some have the view others do not fit the model or role of slave as weel as they do, nor their Master's those of a Master (or Mistress as the case may be), comes down to stereotyped images of what a slave is. osg has mentioned in previous times her liking of the old histoical slavegirl/white Master scenario. While this model of slavery did exist and was valid, and is a model which suits her relationship despite her Master not being white, within those times and often on the same plantations was a different Master/slave relationship whereby house slaves (and some field slaves) carried more responsibility, were relied upon (and actually vital) to be able to make decisions in relation to the running of the house and household matters as well as often some of those white ruling class within such as wives and children, and other servants/slaves, even at times expected to deal out physical punishments to other slaves.

Simply put, the Master trusted them and needed their service, often valued and asked their opinion, some even handled the finances of the plantation/household, but that by no means gave them equal status or set them any freer than their field hand counterparts. The same Master/Mistress usually had both types of slaves and handed out the same treatment if either tried escape or abused their trust in any way. Also, both the stereotyped field slave and the house slave often came under the sexual use of the Master and/or anyone he chose to loan them to for that purpose...so there was no less a yoke of slavery on one or the other as neither was free to live their own life, free to leave, or ever guaranteed of remaining safe or owned by the same owner.

Even looking at slavery in other countries and times, this is still true in that there were various roles that slaves filled according to the needs of their Owners, various duties they had, but never a choice of freedom or equality. I think for those who feel they fill the role of slave more than another or more appropriately just because their role fits the view of slavery which rings their bells is missing a very vital point....the reality was and is not about choice or role, but about fulfilling the needs of the one who held their life in their hands.

In this house, though some seem to think otherwise, this model of fulfilling the owner's needs over my own is alive and well. There are several things expected of me which do not fit what I longed for, or which fitted the image in my head, some I did not expect (like being asked to communicate with and at times oversee others on his behalf). Some refuse to think of that latter task as a possibility simply because they feel their submission is too strong to allow it....I was not allowed to use that as an out and was actually reminded it was his command so was my duty as a submissive slave to obey and do well for him.

I have to say that was one of the most valueable lessons in real submission he ever taught me as much as I still often have to remind myself why I must do it. It is not about capital letters for Master and lowercase for slave, it is not about being sat on a couch to await the next sex session, it is not even about hanging on his every word in starry eyed adoration, or making sure dinner is on the table and the house clean when he comes home from work....quite simply it is about serving in the way he chooses which in this house means making his life easier and more manageable by more than just the part which includes sex and housework...in demanding such he utilises many of my talents in life including very much those between my ears. He has a great sense of security in himself and his ability as both Owner and human which allows him to utilise me to the fullest without fearing it will diminish his power in any way, more so enhance it. In that sense if he changes his view or opinion on something next year, it just means he has changed it to what suits him at that moment and that my role as slave is to support him in every moment no matter whether he might say one thing today, another tomorrow...his word is final and I honour it proudly for what it is in the moment as according to his wishes.

Catalina

 

[Masters_aphrodite]

One of the things i enjoy about message boards are the varying different pov's. It is unfortunate though that in my posts someone may perceive that i am perfect, or that i think i am perfect. If that is the case then i apologize, but i will not apologize for wanting to be perfect in the ways that suit my Master. As all people are different so are all dynamics. Personally, i do not think it makes one right or wrong over another. For me i enjoy a glimpse of someone else's relationship as it allows one a view from a different vantage point, and i am always up for learning something new. It is also unfortunate that an expression of a different point of view may cause others to perceive that it has been implied that their Master is not intelligent or that they have to provide proof of intelligence.

As for me i was just enjoying the thread, and the different point of views provided by some of the posters. i think we all do different things in our daily lives to not only show additional respect to our Master's but also to show the appreciation of being their property. i for one do not see any need to nit pick because it may be different from my dynamic, but instead prefer to enjoy the different variations provided.

i completely agree with Etoile...in the end it does not matter what anyone else thinks but only what the two people involved know as that is the only real truth.

 

[catalina_francisco]

One of the things i enjoy about message boards are the varying different pov's. It is unfortunate though that in my posts someone may perceive that i am perfect, or that i think i am perfect. If that is the case then i apologize, but i will not apologize for wanting to be perfect in the ways that suit my Master. As all people are different so are all dynamics. Personally, i do not think it makes one right or wrong over another. For me i enjoy a glimpse of someone else's relationship as it allows one a view from a different vantage point, and i am always up for learning something new. It is also unfortunate that an expression of a different point of view may cause others to perceive that it has been implied that their Master is not intelligent or that they have to provide proof of intelligence.

As for me i was just enjoying the thread, and the different point of views provided by some of the posters. i think we all do different things in our daily lives to not only show additional respect to our Master's but also to show the appreciation of being their property. i for one do not see any need to nit pick because it may be different from my dynamic, but instead prefer to enjoy the different variations provided.

i completely agree with Etoile...in the end it does not matter what anyone else thinks but only what the two people involved know as that is the only real truth.

LOL, you will find after awhile here that we have been here many times before, and likely will be many times again, and not always are the perceptions incorrect, nor do they mean anyone is defending themselves just because they ask clarification, query or mention something they find contradictory, or explain their POV. If we all shut up, there will be nothing to read and a very boring board that would make. It is amazing the amount I in particular have learned here from reading the words of others, sharing experiences and being open to various modes of being.....and the learning and changes we have both experienced during the last 3 years, both in response to this and our own path can be seen in our posts over that time. Rigid in one true way is one thing we do not find appealing as I am sure you may discover.

Catalina