A Voting Question

[PatCarrington]

Not goliath. Not plastic.
You're such a bitch, Pat. I like bitchy men! lol But not liquid ones...

i've applied freon.

 

[PatCarrington]

Did the guy who invented the wheel listen to the people who told him that things would roll better if he rounded the edges, or did he stay with his original design of triangle-shaped wheel because it better expressed the symbolic connection between the earth, the sea and the sky?

i love when you get involved.

 

[Tathagata]

i love when you get involved.

kiss ass

 

[flyguy69]

Did the guy who invented the wheel listen to the people who told him that things would roll better if he rounded the edges, or did he stay with his original design of triangle-shaped wheel because it better expressed the symbolic connection between the earth, the sea and the sky?

No, but that guy got to do a three-way with Eve and Goliath.

 

[brightlyiburn]

Did the guy who invented the wheel listen to the people who told him that things would roll better if he rounded the edges, or did he stay with his original design of triangle-shaped wheel because it better expressed the symbolic connection between the earth, the sea and the sky?

Who's to say that he didn't make it round to begin with? Don't assume that the things that end up working must therefor be what the convention originally was. The man who made the wheel began because he felt he could do what he wanted more effectiently than those people dragging around their loads. Sure, the dragging works, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

 

[PatCarrington]

Who's to say that he didn't make it round to begin with?

the thousand guys and gals who already had carts full of fruit rolling down paved highways while he was chiseling, thinking he'd thought of something new.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Poems are not merely "shorter, more compact" stories. They can be, but that is NOT necessarily what they are. Emotional poetry is not a story. It's not meant to be read like a story. Chances are, the writer's intent is not for you to understand every little detail of the poem. With a story, you want someone to understand.

Poetry, especially of the personal kind, is more like abstract art than a story. Most people dismiss abstract art without ever really understanding it. They decide because it doesn't look conventional, it is therefore not good. However, most abstract artists do know traditional art. They simply choose not to do things traditionally. They do not, because they do things differently, keep their art from the world because people might not get it. Plenty of people aren't going to understand, but that doesn't stop them from looking for someone's opinion. However, if you wrote an abstract artist a big long dissertation on what he could do to make his art "good" in your definition of the word, he'd probably find it hard not to laugh in your face.

I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point entirely. You're confusing poetry with personal journal entries.

The process of writing a poem is exactly as personal as writing a story, and it ends the moment it's released into the open. From that moment on, it's not your poem any more, it's the readers' poem. Every word you wrote will elicit an interpretation on the reader, and every word will carry a meaning. If that meaning isn't the same as I intended it to be, I must be told about it and learn from it, because that was a shortcoming on my part, not the readers'. I, the poet, should at least be aware of how each word may be interpreted.

In your example, if (actually, when) someone comes to me, as an abstract artist, with long edits and explanations on how to make my work better, I certainly won't laugh (at what, my shortcomings in getting the message across?) nor will I ignore him or her. I will listen, I will find out how different his or her interpretation was from my intent, and because I'm confident on my work, because I put rational thought behind every apparently abstract and subjective choice, I will be able to explain them and find out why it wasn't understood. I will be able to grow and learn - not learn to make things the way that reader wants me to, but learn to think, and learn how my choices are seen and interpreted.

The this-is-my-art-and-it-is-personal-and-subjective routine will only lead to a stale waste of time. But hey, at least you'll fell good.

 

[minsue]

Who's to say that he didn't make it round to begin with? Don't assume that the things that end up working must therefor be what the convention originally was. The man who made the wheel began because he felt he could do what he wanted more effectiently than those people dragging around their loads. Sure, the dragging works, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

Yes, the dragging works and yes, it's not right for everyone.

I think a closer analogy when it comes to voting and PCs would be whether or not the guy with the wheel should show it's utility to those who are dragging their loads. It's up to them whether or not to use it.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Yes, the dragging works and yes, it's not right for everyone.

I think a closer analogy when it comes to voting and PCs would be whether or not the guy with the wheel should show it's utility to those who are dragging their loads. It's up to them whether or not to use it.

An even closer analogy would be for someone to come to the guy and suggest rubber tires and an independently directional axle, only for him to tell him to go fuck himself, because his idea of a single piece of chiselled granite was more original and transcendental.

 

[CharleyH]

Charley, you wrote that poetry "is no more or less subjective and personal than perhaps a story I might write." I believe I failed to articulate my thoughts as clearly as I'd hoped. What I meant to say is that poems exist outside the bounds of grammar, syntax, or any other rules. At their best, poems express ideas that prose simply cannot. Because of this, it becomes very difficult for anyone to develop a qualitative analysis of a poem. Thus, any analysis is, at best, subjective and personal.

From Wikipedia, Deconstruction: etc . . .

As I mentioned in my last post, I got distracted and sidetracked. Still, I am overly familiar with Derrida, and post-structualist criticism is not the only in existence. There is also post-modern, psychoanalytic, feminist, stylistics, semiotic analysis to name but a few used in popular culture.

Poems can exist beyond the rules, as can literature in my opinion, but poetry, like literature can also be subject to criticism because of form, metre, rhyme, rhythm, repetition etc. . . I still believe, as with literature, film, music etc. that there canbe qualitative analysis of a poem. A poem is not, generally, so abstract as to be beyond criticism, and even if it exists in the avant garde, there can still be criticism. If the evidence is there . . . it is there.

 

[*Catbabe*]

An even closer analogy would be for someone to come to the guy and suggest rubber tires and an independently directional axle, only for him to tell him to go fuck himself, because his idea of a single piece of chiselled granite was more original and transcendental.

Don't forget forget emotionally driven.

 

[Tathagata]

An even closer analogy would be for someone to come to the guy and suggest rubber tires and an independently directional axle, only for him to tell him to go fuck himself, because his idea of a single piece of chiselled granite was more original and transcendental.

that's a hoot

 

[Fflow]

Tangent...

A wise man once said, "it is useless to wander off on a tangent with a bull-whip in search of a dead horse."



Are you SURE you don't want a piece of candy?

 

[minsue]

An even closer analogy would be for someone to come to the guy and suggest rubber tires and an independently directional axle, only for him to tell him to go fuck himself, because his idea of a single piece of chiselled granite was more original and transcendental.

You're so cute when you're bitchy.

 

[CharleyH]

kiss ass

What! You don't want to kiss her ass?

ODDBALL!

 

[Tathagata]

What! You don't want to kiss her ass?

ODDBALL!

considering what else I've been labeled oddball is a step up

 

[Fflow]

Can't we all just get along?

Well, I feel like we're becoming contentious and arguementative, which was not where I'd hoped we'd end up. There is one thing, however, upon which we can all agree, I hope: The AV pix for Charley and Lauren are very sexy. In both, I swear that, if I press my eyeball against my monitor screen, I can just see a hint of nipple.

xoxo

fflow

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Well, I feel like we're becoming contentious and arguementative, which was not where I'd hoped we'd end up.

But being contentious and argumentative is a good thing. It makes us think about what we do and it makes us learn and grow.

And it's fun.

 

[Fflow]

fun

It would be more fun if, in the midst of our heated discussion, one of the buttons on your blouse would come undone....

 

[brightlyiburn]

I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point entirely. You're confusing poetry with personal journal entries.

The process of writing a poem is exactly as personal as writing a story, and it ends the moment it's released into the open. From that moment on, it's not your poem any more, it's the readers' poem. Every word you wrote will elicit an interpretation on the reader, and every word will carry a meaning. If that meaning isn't the same as I intended it to be, I must be told about it and learn from it, because that was a shortcoming on my part, not the readers'. I, the poet, should at least be aware of how each word may be interpreted.

In your example, if (actually, when) someone comes to me, as an abstract artist, with long edits and explanations on how to make my work better, I certainly won't laugh (at what, my shortcomings in getting the message across?) nor will I ignore him or her. I will listen, I will find out how different his or her interpretation was from my intent, and because I'm confident on my work, because I put rational thought behind every apparently abstract and subjective choice, I will be able to explain them and find out why it wasn't understood. I will be able to grow and learn - not learn to make things the way that reader wants me to, but learn to think, and learn how my choices are seen and interpreted.

The this-is-my-art-and-it-is-personal-and-subjective routine will only lead to a stale waste of time. But hey, at least you'll fell good.

You're completely contradicting yourself. If you're not learning to make things the way your readers want, than it doesn't belong to your readers. It belongs to you.
If you say it belongs to your readers, than you aren't writing how you want to write.
My readers are the ones who tell me my writing belongs to me. They are the ones who tell me to do things how I want to do them. They are the ones who tell me I shouldn't change just because someone thinks I should. They are the ones that tell me and show me that what they love is the part of me that shows when I write. They don't think I should glue myself to conventions, so why should I?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

You're completely contradicting yourself. If you're not learning to make things the way your readers want, than it doesn't belong to your readers. It belongs to you.

If you say it belongs to your readers, than you aren't writing how you want to write.

You aren't reading my posts, dahling.

I know why I write what i write. Each word has a purpose that is thought out and considered, even if it may seem random.

After I post something, it doesn't belong to me anymore, and my purpose is meaningless. All that matters is how the readers will interpret my words. If the readers interpret them in a completely different way, I want to know, I want to be aware of where I failed to communicate.

My poems are from from being transparent, but they must communicate something. Usually, that something is multi-layered, so some readers will get to different levels of understanding. I want to know if someone didn't get anything at all, or if their understanding was radically different from my intention. I want to know that because I want to know what communicates and what doesn't.

If I weren't interested in communication, I wouldn't dare call what I write "poetry", nor would I have any interest in ever taking them out of my drawer.

Abstract art is meant to communicate as much as or more than figurative art. If it doesn't communicate, it isn't art. It's doodles.

 

[CharleyH]

Emotional poetry is not a story.

Respectfully, I look at a story, and write a story in the same thought out and theoretical way that I might write a poem. When I am constructing a story, (particualr stories) I give the same attention to semiotics as I might to a poem. To me, a poem might be a shorter version of a story I wrote. Both can be imbued with emotion, but poetry is not poetry simply because it is emotional. Unless of course there is a new genre, and I am clueless.

I think that most poets WANT someone to understand their poem, just as one would understand a story. Even the nonsense poets Carroll and Lear can be understood. Even if on the simplest level a poem is about an emotion, you still want a reader to 'get' what emotion, particularly if you put that poem in a public forum. The act of putting a poem in a public forum suggests that you want to share something . . . you want to be understood, and if absolutely no one understands, well, what's the point, well, you get it, so keep it in your closet and let it collect dust.

Repetative symbols used continually in any poem represent a common communication between a poet and a reader. If it didn't no one would understand a damn bloody, drippingly red, blood curdlingly bloody thing, so what would be the point then of even reading. In this way, even (asforementioned) the avant-garde requires a convention to extend or demolish. A poem, traditional or not STILL communicates.

Some people request a big long dissertation, and hence construction zone here, and the SDC and story feedback. Tara said it earlier. I will not repeat her.

Yes, I am not only familiar with Derrida, but with Picasso, and the dadaists and the pop artists et al. I have no idea why you seem to think I am conventional, or and don't apreciate the abstract, the subjective and avant garde, but I will leave that alone because I have not a clue what this part is about, and I just might be tempted to go into a dissertation on something.

Cheers

 

[PatCarrington]

Respectfully, I look at a story, and write a story in the same thought out and theoretical way that I might write a poem. When I am constructing a story, (particualr stories) I give the same attention to semiotics as I might to a poem. To me, a poem might be a shorter version of a story I wrote. Both can be imbued with emotion, but poetry is not poetry simply because it is emotional. Unless of course there is a new genre, and I am clueless.

I think that most poets WANT someone to understand their poem, just as one would understand a story. Even the nonsense poets Carroll and Lear can be understood. Even if on the simplest level a poem is about an emotion, you still want a reader to 'get' what emotion, particularly if you put that poem in a public forum. The act of putting a poem in a public forum suggests that you want to share something . . . you want to be understood, and if absolutely no one understands, well, what's the point, well, you get it, so keep it in your closet and let it collect dust.

Repetative symbols used continually in any poem represent a common communication between a poet and a reader. If it didn't no one would understand a damn bloody, drippingly red, blood curdlingly bloody thing, so what would be the point then of even reading. In this way, even (asforementioned) the avant-garde requires a convention to extend or demolish. A poem, traditional or not STILL communicates.

Some people request a big long dissertation, and hence construction zone here, and the SDC and story feedback. Tara said it earlier. I will not repeat her.

Yes, I am not only familiar with Derrida, but with Picasso, and the dadaists and the pop artists et al. I have no idea why you seem to think I am conventional, or and don't apreciate the abstract, the subjective and avant garde, but I will leave that alone because I have not a clue what this part is about, and I just might be tempted to go into a dissertation on something.

Cheers

can we get back to the ass-kissing?

 

[Fflow]

Hey!!!

Hey! If you're going to fight, the least you can do is to take off your tops!

xoxo

 

[Guest]

As an alternative, there is Live Journal. It's a good place for poetry, personal, professional or what not. I make use of it often. Daily in fact.