A Voting Question

[Angeline]

Here is a segment of a much larger poem that I've been working on for more than a year! I've not posted it before because I feared that the typical lit reader would be incapable of 1) recognizing it as art, 2) reading into it, beyond the form, & 3) because it isn't racy... However, I think it is illustrative of what we're discussing (at least at this point). I'm going to post it, hope for some comments, then I will share the process I used to create it. ok? Here goes:

The Body
By Fflow

gaseous hilarity
digestive discovery
insubordinate colon
ominous constipate
gastrointestinal prize
canvas bellyache
indigestion wristwatch
plastic arrear
belly curfew
derriere camelback diameter

drunken chick
circumvent biology
frenetic cervix appeasable
happy hotbox
curiosity womb droop
inadequacy biometry
submersible kombu nipple
climax deception
transcendental contraception
embryonic restraint

clean torso
appendix cockpit
camelback idiot
souvenir glottis
sinew insurrection
breastplate meningitis
damascus toe
holystone armpit
harelip bumblebee
rudolf thornton fingernail
skull concessionaire
clown crack complementation
noble bobble thyroid ascetic

cardiac diego
pulmonary hothouse
soggy insurrection
clone ethology
electrolytic antigen fantasy
papillary asparagus
clever dexterity
sight fluid sanction
wishbone brigade

awesome psychobiology
incontrovertible epidemiology
strategic glucose consonant
masculine avalanche burial

thigh haul malady
hydrophobia daydream
pavlov oncology
redbird arthritis knockdown
tungstate amnesia
hard glossed hepatitis
lymphoma brandy
cancerous blackmail
postmortem ignition



...

You like words, don't you?

I think your poem is good and hilarious.

 

[Fflow]

Thank you

Yes, I like words. And thank you, sincerely, Angeline, for your very sweet comments.

As a reward, I think you should have a piece of candy.



.

 

[Reltne]

SpoAM

. . .
The poem I posted earlier today, in this thread, was created from a very large collection of spam e-mail messages that contained random words. Without manipulating them in any way, I collected these words over several months and selected existing phrases that, to me, contained a certain resonance. From that list, I selected phrases that were related in some way and, in this case, the theme had to do with the body. I did not alter the word order or phrase order at all.

Welcome to the club! I have been collecting SPAM headers for about 4 years, and they have sure gotten weirder or at least more interesting in about the last 6 months as the Spamers try to work around the mail-filtering programs.
Here is the invective start of one section:

SPoAM

wakeful clinging mulatto pudding
foolhardy polypropylene taffy
sepia magnolia thesaurus
pneumatic pelican tease
Hershey bicarameler
Micronesian Monteverdi ogre
foolhardy Pontiac despot
Argentinian matinee
. . .​

I believe there was once a thread here for "found" poetry (Poetry found in ads, prose, speech like Rumsfeld, etc.)

 

[Angeline]

Yes, I like words. And thank you, sincerely, Angeline, for your very sweet comments.

As a reward, I think you should have a piece of candy.



.

Thank you. Cherry toostsie pops are my favorite.

 

[Angeline]

Welcome to the club! I have been collecting SPAM headers for about 4 years, and they have sure gotten weirder or at least more interesting in about the last 6 months as the Spamers try to work around the mail-filtering programs.
Here is the invective start of one section:

SPoAM

wakeful clinging mulatto pudding
foolhardy polypropylene taffy
sepia magnolia thesaurus
pneumatic pelican tease
Hershey bicarameler
Micronesian Monteverdi ogre
foolhardy Pontiac despot
Argentinian matinee
. . .​

I believe there was once a thread here for "found" poetry (Poetry found in ads, prose, speech like Rumsfeld, etc.)

I loved that thread (I may have started it). Think I'll go bump it if it's findable in the new and improved Lit.

 

[WickedEve]

Yes, I like words. And thank you, sincerely, Angeline, for your very sweet comments.

As a reward, I think you should have a piece of candy.



.

I've been curious about that photo. You're offering a tootsie pop? Because...?

 

[Angeline]

I've been curious about that photo. You're offering a tootsie pop? Because...?

Does he need a reason?

I can't find that found thread. I'll just start one.

 

[Fflow]

Photo

Well, gosh. In the pic of me, I am dressed for Halloween. I had planned to wear another costume but, tragically, one key bit was missing (pants) so, at the last moment, I had to improvise. I wore a pair of converse all star shoes (orange, I think) with white socks. I wore a long trench/rain coat, and shorts underneath. I was going for the flasher/pervo look.

To further clarify things, I'm including the picture in its entirety!

xoxo

 

[WickedEve]

Well, gosh. In the pic of me, I am dressed for Halloween. I had planned to wear another costume but, tragically, one key bit was missing (pants) so, at the last moment, I had to improvise. I wore a pair of converse all star shoes (orange, I think) with white socks. I wore a long trench/rain coat, and shorts underneath. I was going for the flasher/pervo look.

To further clarify things, I'm including the picture in its entirety!

xoxo

That is perverted and the candy being offered makes it worse. lol

 

[Fflow]

Perverted?

Yes. Perverted. That, exactly, was what I was going for. Really, though, my halloween costume shouldn't really be a topic of conversation on this thread... Perhaps we should start a new one and everyone can submit their costume pix...

xoxo

fflow








.

 

[WickedEve]

Perhaps we should start a new one and everyone can submit their costume pix...[/COLOR]

It's reasonable for you to request no off-topic comments. So, I'll not make any more.
As far as your comment above, I think my best response would be your own words: "Ok, so I'm being a smart-ass."

Yes, you are.

 

[impressive]

I don't expect to reach every reader equally, obviously, but if nothing gets through or if something gets through in the wrong way, I want to understand that reader. I want to know what failed, so that I can judge if this was due to a failure on my part or on that specific reader.

Actually, I think you and brightly are pretty much saying the same thing -- kinda sorta. It's just that brightly asserts that the breakdown in communication is always the fault of the reader since she always knows what she meant. (I'm not always sure I know what I mean, though.)

 

[impressive]

I am, at best, a mediocre poet. Currently 6 out of 7 of my poems on here have Hs. Why? Because I'm active on the AH board and friends are kind. As good as it feels to see those lovely 5s come in, I cringe because I know they're not for the poem. They're for me. If I submitted under a different name, I would have very different scores. (I know because I have, just to check.)

Don't sell yourself short. "At best" you far surpass "mediocre." So do I. So does virtually everyone when they're at the top of their game. Those occasional, maddeningly unpredictable flashes of brilliance hit us all at one time or another. (Some much more frequently than others, damn it.) The trick, of course, is to recognize and capture them in a way that's recognizable to the readers.

I understand what you're saying about votes from friends, and I only partially agree. I, too, am active on the AH ... and there are three, maybe four, folks there who consistently vote 5s on my submissions and leave glowing PCs. Yes, it feels good. However, those same people have usually seen the work in progress, offered suggestions and constructive criticism, and helped me hone the piece so that end product is something they actually feel deserves that vote/PC.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the instance of voting for the person rather than the poem (or story) is not quite as common as some people prefer to believe. Far more common, I think, is having those friends simply refrain from voting altogether rather than give a lower vote -- and, in that way, yes -- friends do influence one's rating.

Now, if you want to discuss the weight of feedback based upon the source -- well, that's an entirely different critter. (Is a sincere PC from a non-poet who was moved to tears by your work any more or less valid than one from an accomplished poet?)

 

[brightlyiburn]

Actually, I think you and brightly are pretty much saying the same thing -- kinda sorta. It's just that brightly asserts that the breakdown in communication is always the fault of the reader since she always knows what she meant. (I'm not always sure I know what I mean, though.)

Funny, I don't remember saying that. In fact, I don't remember coming close to saying that. Nope, I most certainly didn't say that.
However, I don't expect everyone to understand my work. Instead of selling out when someone doesn't understand, I just chalk it up to the fact that people are all different and not everyone sees things the same way. I suppose I could run around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to change everything I do in order to please everyone. However, I actually enjoy writing and sharing it with others. If there are people who don't like it or don't get it, fine. What a boring world we'd live in if everyone was able to understand everything. It's not their fault that no two people think or feel or perceive in the same way. That is, after all, what makes the human mind such a glorious thing.
I simply don't feel a need to compromise myself so that everyone will like me. I'm not stupid enough to believe that everyone is going to think the sun shines out of my ass if I just try hard enough. Anyone who is dead determined that their every little word be understood by everyone who reads it is going to spend the rest of their lives in frustration.
A wise man once said "It is better to write for the self and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self". I write by that creed, and my readers appreciate and respect that. They are the ones who tell me to write for myself, to write how I feel. I find it really odd that my readers can understand that better than a fellow writer.

 

[Fflow]

Meaning 101

Language is symbolic. Words and phrases represent concepts, ideas, and feelings but are not concepts, ideas, and feelings in and of themselves. ("The map is not the territory.") When a writer sits down and writes a sentence, the writer may have a perfectly clear and concise idea of its meaning. In fact, the writer may have written a perfectly clear and concise sentence, the meaning of which is absolutely clear to the majority of people who read it. Even so, because each individual consciousness is vastly different, even when existing in the same cultural context, understanding will vary, either widely or slightly, depending upon the individual reader's experience, education, personality, intellect, etc. Thus, the writer can only hope to create a work that has meaning for the writer.

The apprehension of meaning, then, becomes the responsibility of the reader. This does not mean that a reader must try to, with certainty, come to understand the precise meaning the writer intended. This is, in fact, impossible without entering into the consciousness of the writer at the time the work was created. Instead, the reader has a responsibility to engage creatively with the written work and imbue it with meaning that is relevant to the reader's consciousness.

Knowing this, then, one can actually use this to create work that is more abstract, that has its meaning obscured. Words, then, become tools that reach into the consciousness of the reader, evoking thoughts, feelings, and memories. Instead of giving the reader something that is pre-digested, the reader must work a bit to uncover a more personal meaning. When this is done well, each reader should walk away with a unique and personal interpretation of the work.

Scholars used to write in Latin. Why? Because they knew that modern language was constantly changing. The meanings of words are forever in flux; new words and new usages are constantly being created. Ideas that did not exist previously are coming into the culture at an astounding rate. Some of these ideas are, now, usurping words whose meanings have been long established. (Ontology is an example of this.) Latin, however, is a dead language and all words have fixed meanings, outside of a dynamic cultural context.

Unless you are writing in Latin, it is a reasonable assumption that, for each reader, there will be a different interpretation of your work. And this is as it should be.

Therefore, the claim that a writer fails if the intended meaning is not understood is, in my mind, false. The claim that it is the reader's duty to understand the intended meaning of the writer is, in my mind, also false. It is each human being's responsibility to consciously and creatively imbue all of existence with subjective meaning. Any less is to be asleep.

 

[twelveoone]

Language is symbolic. Words and phrases represent concepts, ideas, and feelings but are not concepts, ideas, and feelings in and of themselves. ("The map is not the territory.") When a writer sits down and writes a sentence, the writer may have a perfectly clear and concise idea of its meaning. In fact, the writer may have written a perfectly clear and concise sentence, the meaning of which is absolutely clear to the majority of people who read it. Even so, because each individual consciousness is vastly different, even when existing in the same cultural context, understanding will vary, either widely or slightly, depending upon the individual reader's experience, education, personality, intellect, etc. Thus, the writer can only hope to create a work that has meaning for the writer.

The apprehension of meaning, then, becomes the responsibility of the reader. This does not mean that a reader must try to, with certainty, come to understand the precise meaning the writer intended. This is, in fact, impossible without entering into the consciousness of the writer at the time the work was created. Instead, the reader has a responsibility to engage creatively with the written work and imbue it with meaning that is relevant to the reader's consciousness.

Knowing this, then, one can actually use this to create work that is more abstract, that has its meaning obscured. Words, then, become tools that reach into the consciousness of the reader, evoking thoughts, feelings, and memories. Instead of giving the reader something that is pre-digested, the reader must work a bit to uncover a more personal meaning. When this is done well, each reader should walk away with a unique and personal interpretation of the work.

Scholars used to write in Latin. Why? Because they knew that modern language was constantly changing. The meanings of words are forever in flux; new words and new usages are constantly being created. Ideas that did not exist previously are coming into the culture at an astounding rate. Some of these ideas are, now, usurping words whose meanings have been long established. (Ontology is an example of this.) Latin, however, is a dead language and all words have fixed meanings, outside of a dynamic cultural context.

Unless you are writing in Latin, it is a reasonable assumption that, for each reader, there will be a different interpretation of your work. And this is as it should be.

Therefore, the claim that a writer fails if the intended meaning is not understood is, in my mind, false. The claim that it is the reader's duty to understand the intended meaning of the writer is, in my mind, also false. It is each human being's responsibility to consciously and creatively imbue all of existence with subjective meaning. Any less is to be asleep.

Agree with most of what you said, I am failing to fully find much meaning in "The Body". What am I missing?

 

[Guest]

<snip>

(Is a sincere PC from a non-poet who was moved to tears by your work any more or less valid than one from an accomplished poet?)

Nope. We all read and can feel. It's an quite accomplishment to write something that has an emotive effect on another human being, I think.

It's a shame Icingsugar isn't around anymore because I miss seeing his work, but his avalanche moved me greatly and I haven't read anything else that has done it for me like that poem did, but I'm hoping to. I'm always on the look-out, be it poems by newbie poets or more known poets here on Lit.

Everyone has the potential when they share themselves with another.

 

[Vampiric_Mirage]

I think everyone is different, and every poem is different. It depends on how confident you are and how emotionally attached to a poem you are.

Personally, I really enjoy constructive criticism. Although I also really enjoy the "wows" I always wonder if maybe I could have done something better, maybe changed that one word, to create a better poem. Most of the time I really want to know why someone gives me a four. Is there something I could have done differently to improve it, or was it just a difference of opinion.

A perfect example, a while ago I got feedback to one of my stories something along the lines of they didn't like the use of the word "you" & "me." (As in you slowly walk towards me). Ok, this isn't a direct quote (I'm too lazy to look it up), but I really value that comment. I don't know what the vote was, but even if it was a one I wouldn't mind because they said why they didn't like it.

When I really think a poem could be improved upon & the writer has asked for it (either previously asked on the boards or asks at the end of their work) then depending on what I'm saying I will just send them a PM with what I found to be positive & negative aspects of their poem.

That's just me though. I think with poetry you have to either be open to constructive criticism, or you should say at the end of your work that you aren't. Normally people are trying to be helpful, not hurtful, with their comments. If they know you don't want them, they won't give them...

No matter what though, if you like writing, KEEP WRITING! (no matter what someone else says)

Anyways, that's my long-winded opinion...

 

[average gina]

Bring on the cheese, because I'm whining...

I am so mad. On one of the poems that I wrote, ten people gave me a 5. I was thrilled. I go back to look at it a few hours later and someone must have given me a one out of spite because now the score is 4.79 or something like that. I don't profess to be a fantastic writer. I'm very self-deprecating (a habit I'm trying to break), but I was really proud of the poem and the feedback I got.


I started to stop the voting on it right then and there just so I can be proud of it. I didn't even care if it didn't get an award. I was just really happy about it.

Dad gum sapsucker.

 

[sandspike]

I am so mad. On one of the poems that I wrote, ten people gave me a 5. I was thrilled. I go back to look at it a few hours later and someone must have given me a one out of spite because now the score is 4.79 or something like that. I don't profess to be a fantastic writer. I'm very self-deprecating (a habit I'm trying to break), but I was really proud of the poem and the feedback I got.


I started to stop the voting on it right then and there just so I can be proud of it. I didn't even care if it didn't get an award. I was just really happy about it.

Dad gum sapsucker.

Gina- Don't worry about it. You have the proof in the other votes and in your
own mind. That is a lot of fives, which poem is it? I doubt that it is perfect, but
it sure must be a good one. You leave it out there and don't worry about
a few nuts. It should stay up as a HOT work by a damn good poet.

 

[Fflow]

Dad Gum!

Aside from your father's dental problems, Gina, I totally relate to what you're saying. I suppose the logic was that, over time, the average score of many votes would give a fairly accurate rating of any given work. This fails, however, because most postings have a brief flurry of votes and, after that, rarely get more.

I can't really think of a better way, however... Perhaps some algorhythm that combines the vote score with the number of votes.

My issue is not with people voting, but not leaving meaningful, constructive comments. Getting a "1" isn't meaningful. "That Sucked!" isn't very meaningful. "The poem felt awkward and didn't flow trippingly off my tongue" might be more meaningful. I also feel that there is a certain arrogance that some people have which manifests itself by giving writers unsolicited ideas about how to "fix" their work. This, too, for me is less meaningful, especially when it comes to poetry. As I've said previously, poetry can be more abstract, and isn't required to adhere as strictly to rules that might apply more rigidly to prose.

Anyway, all we can do is not depend too much on external validation. We can, as human beings, and as writers, learn, grow, and expand ourselves into new understanding. As this happens, it will be revealed in the work we produce.

Peace.

Fflow

 

[average gina]

Thanks, Sandspike and Flow. Took me a minute to understand the problem with my father's dental habits!

I agree, to an extent, about the insanity and the illogical way that the scores are done, but with all averages, the earlier the score was posted, the more weight it holds. On a scale of one to ten, voting a ten among ten votes averages out higher than a ten added after fifty votes.

To this person who wrote on my comments:

i saw
02/22/05 by Anonymous
what you said in the thread about the votes. Dont youknow the vote system here is screwed beyond belief? If you were proud of this poem when it has 11 5's, you should be proud of it no matter what. Dont base your self esteem on a vote system that is so seriously flawed if you do you will never amount to anything more than another Lit clickish poet...good luck

Well, that was a nice how-do-you-do. Call me clickish, call me insecure, heck, call me late for dinner, but did you really have to put the statement there? A more tactful way would have been to send a private message to me anonymously (since you did not given your name or tell me who you are with a pm or an email). What you said may have comforting, but your manner displays a smidgen of negativity. At least have some conviction about yourself. I will respect you, and the statement, more if you revealed yourself.

To answer your question, Sandspike, the poem is called, "The Last Place". It was one of the five poems that I wrote for the Thanksgiving Challenge. I guess I shouldn't even complain because I used someone else's lines to make that poem. That said, this and the other poems posted after September reflect the lowest period of my life, which, in my opinion, brought out the best poetry in me. During that time, I honored my mother in ways I have not ever been able to do. The high votes brought me not only security but also a sense of people empathizing with me. Those high votes were like hugs to me. I have some low-scoring poems and I have some really fecal poems that don't deserved being formed and called 'poems' nor do they deserve the light of day. But something about that poem... It's like a butterfly--light and beautiful, simply floating amongst the land-locked.

By the way, Sandspike. The compliment was not lost on me. In fact, hearing it from you is an honor. Thanks.

I give up. The sapsucka must have done another 1, dropping it even lower, doing it with no explanation. Just booty ugly.

 

[impressive]

WTF is "another Lit clickish poet" anyway? Does that mean someone who has regular readers who gush over their work -- work that might not strike the fancy of more "legitimate" poets? I say FUCK THAT! Not only is it arrogant in the extreme, but it's also belittling to those who express their sincere opinions of a person's work. It's like putting up a sign that says, "Don't bother having an opinion if it's not in harmony with that of the serious poets."

I've received 5 votes that I didn't feel were deserved, but I'm not going to slam the voter by saying, "You're full of shit." It's their OPINION. I consider those votes MUCH more valid than the 1 votes I FREQUENTLY get in obvious retaliation for having the nerve to get a handful of great PCs -- the kind with no constructive feedback, or no feedback at all.

*sigh*

 

[Fflow]

Impressive Gina...

Dear Gina,

First, as a complete aside, for some reason I love the name 'Gina.'

Anyway, you and Impressive have hit upon the crux of this thread. The nature of the voting system allows, in my humble opinion, for aggressive, punitive voting without any accountability or feedback. I suppose I could allow readers to leave comments, but not allow them to vote but the problem there was raised by a Lit poetry reviewer... That she isn't going to type in her user name and password for every comment she leaves.

As a website administrator myself, I understand that the good folks who designed, built, and maintain this kick-ass system did not foresee the abuses that could arise within the voting system they created. I cannot, now, imagine that they would be willing or able to revamp it extensively.

So, then, the only obvious solution I see is a commitment by the community to follow a few basic rules: Mainly, to communicate meaningfully via comment along with the voting. By meaningfully, I do not mean suggesting corrections to improve the work. Rather, I suggest that one can express one's own reaction to the piece and, perhaps, one example of why that reaction was generated. For example, "I cried when I read the part about your mother's death" or "The endless rhyming in the 2nd stanza made me want to pull my hair out."

Without writing a lengthy essay, we can express our personal reactions in a way that is honest, and meaningful to the author. I don't think that is asking too much of a community of created, committed writers.

Lastly, the curse of dependance upon external validation can be devistating. In all things one must let the slings and arrows of outragious criticism roll off our backs as if we were ducks being splashed with water. However, ducks do not respond well to slings and arrows. Generally, they die. So, maybe ducks isn't the best metaphor.

Still, you get my point that being a little thick-skinned but, at the same time, open to self-examination and accepting of honest and constructive feedback, are all good things. Our best growth comes from interactions with others.

If we disengage ourselves from our community, or from relationships, we run the risk of losing the mirror upon which we reflect our thoughts, feelings, and ideas. It is a simple thing to slip into madness that way, foaming at the mouth and raving, howling at the moon, chasing cars, and growling at neighbors.

If I may quote the immortal bard, Tonio K.:

From Merzsuite:

"This one has, no doubt, confused you
You are, maybe, hurt?
Do not let this life abuse you.
You are not so worthless.
Your an A) Integral and valuable part of some master plan
Or B) Clearly as important as a dirt-clod or that can

Sing it out now:

Futt futt futt
Futt futt futt
Yes I am stupid."

So, as you can see, even the best of poets may, at some point, put pen to paper and produce a load of crap. We, as that poet's support group, are obligated to let the offending poet know, but gently, kindly, and with words. Yes, it takes more time, and yes, it takes more effort, but that's what we do when we care.



my 2 cents.

 

[Tathagata]

Dear Gina,

First, as a complete aside, for some reason I love the name 'Gina.'



my 2 cents.

must be 2 cents Canadian....
with the exchange rate you get twice as many words.