A Voting Question

[Reltne]

. . .

Poems can exist beyond the rules, as can literature in my opinion, but poetry, like literature can also be subject to criticism because of form, metre, rhyme, rhythm, repetition etc. . . I still believe, as with literature, film, music etc. that there canbe qualitative analysis of a poem. A poem is not, generally, so abstract as to be beyond criticism, and even if it exists in the avant garde, there can still be criticism. If the evidence is there . . . it is there.

And if poems can exist beyond the rules, they surely don't do it here on Literotica. There are some good poets at this site, but most aren't even ready to be published commercially, and I am certain that there is not a poetic Picasso lurking out there in the Lit. weeds ready to invent a whole new school of writing. - Anyone who truly thinks that they are beyond all rules and conventions should look up the word "hubris" and research the topic of "private language".

 

[brightlyiburn]

You aren't reading my posts, dahling.

I know why I write what i write. Each word has a purpose that is thought out and considered, even if it may seem random.

After I post something, it doesn't belong to me anymore, and my purpose is meaningless. All that matters is how the readers will interpret my words. If the readers interpret them in a completely different way, I want to know, I want to be aware of where I failed to communicate.

My poems are from from being transparent, but they must communicate something. Usually, that something is multi-layered, so some readers will get to different levels of understanding. I want to know if someone didn't get anything at all, or if their understanding was radically different from my intention. I want to know that because I want to know what communicates and what doesn't.

If I weren't interested in communication, I wouldn't dare call what I write "poetry", nor would I have any interest in ever taking them out of my drawer.

Abstract art is meant to communicate as much as or more than figurative art. If it doesn't communicate, it isn't art. It's doodles.

So then ancient art, where we have only inklings of what the meaning could be, but no real solid proof of what it truly is, is not art? We have only the assumptions we make in most cases, and we may not like that, but does it mean it's not art simply because we cannot understand it?
Just because you don't understand that doesn't mean it isn't art. And just because you post something for others to see doesn't mean it isn't yours.
I share my work with others out of a genuine love for what I do. What I do is a part of myself that I allow others to see. That is art. "Art" isn't a word that has logic connected to it. Any one of my art teachers would tell you that not only are doodles art, they can express so much.
I used to think that because something didn't speak to me, it wasn't art. But actually taking an art class showed me how flawed that line of thinking is. What a boring world this would be, if every single person either understood something or didn't. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others can't.

 

[CharleyH]

can we get back to the ass-kissing?

Are we forming a chain behind Laurens ass? Are we drawing metaphorical straws. Shortest wins? That'd be me if you discount the strap-on

 

[Lauren Hynde]

So then ancient art, where we have only inklings of what the meaning could be, but no real solid proof of what it truly is, is not art? We have only the assumptions we make in most cases, and we may not like that, but does it mean it's not art simply because we cannot understand it?

Just because you don't understand that doesn't mean it isn't art. And just because you post something for others to see doesn't mean it isn't yours.

I share my work with others out of a genuine love for what I do. What I do is a part of myself that I allow others to see. That is art. "Art" isn't a word that has logic connected to it. Any one of my art teachers would tell you that not only are doodles art, they can express so much.

I used to think that because something didn't speak to me, it wasn't art. But actually taking an art class showed me how flawed that line of thinking is. What a boring world this would be, if every single person either understood something or didn't. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others can't.

No, you're still not reading my posts.

Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean it isn't art. It's because you aren't interested in it being understood that it isn't art. Art has a very precise and rational component: communication. Without it, it isn't art, it's randomness. Doodles can be very expressive, yes, but if you're not trying to express anything with them, they're psychoanalytical curiosities at best.

I, as an artist (and yes, I'm using the word because my entire academic formation was in the field of the Beaux Arts) want to know if there was a communication problem. I don't expect to reach every reader equally, obviously, but if nothing gets through or if something gets through in the wrong way, I want to understand that reader. I want to know what failed, so that I can judge if this was due to a failure on my part or on that specific reader.

 

[PatCarrington]

Are we forming a chain behind Laurens ass? Are we drawing metaphorical straws. Shortest wins? That'd be me if you discount the strap-on

(....discounting)

i'll gladly stand behind you, charley.

that opens up whole new arenas.

 

[Tathagata]

So then ancient art, where we have only inklings of what the meaning could be, but no real solid proof of what it truly is, is not art? We have only the assumptions we make in most cases, and we may not like that, but does it mean it's not art simply because we cannot understand it?
Just because you don't understand that doesn't mean it isn't art. And just because you post something for others to see doesn't mean it isn't yours.
I share my work with others out of a genuine love for what I do. What I do is a part of myself that I allow others to see. That is art. "Art" isn't a word that has logic connected to it. Any one of my art teachers would tell you that not only are doodles art, they can express so much.
I used to think that because something didn't speak to me, it wasn't art. But actually taking an art class showed me how flawed that line of thinking is. What a boring world this would be, if every single person either understood something or didn't. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others can't.

Having made a point to go and read all your poems..I'm having a hard time figuring out why it's being compared to the invention of the wheel or Picasso or why you think it's " hard to understand.
In my opinion it's pretty straight forward, has a touch of " teenage goth angst" about it,and most people reacted favorably to it from what I can see
So what's the big deal?
Your " readers" seem to get it and enjoy it.

 

[twelveoone]

As I mentioned in my last post, I got distracted and sidetracked. Still, I am overly familiar with Derrida, and post-structualist criticism is not the only in existence. There is also post-modern, psychoanalytic, feminist, stylistics, semiotic analysis to name but a few used in popular culture.

Poems can exist beyond the rules, as can literature in my opinion, but poetry, like literature can also be subject to criticism because of form, metre, rhyme, rhythm, repetition etc. . . I still believe, as with literature, film, music etc. that there canbe qualitative analysis of a poem. A poem is not, generally, so abstract as to be beyond criticism, and even if it exists in the avant garde, there can still be criticism. If the evidence is there . . . it is there.

Interesting thread....
"If the evidence is there . . . it is there."
Poetry as a crime scene (1201 laughs)
Is why I look for a MO, people have a tendency to say what they mean, even if they are lying, i.e. they employ a "private language" of saying. As an example, a while ago, I read a thesis on the use of colours in Lorca's poetry...while trying to find out who killed him and why...interesting and ugly in itself.

"Poems can exist beyond the rules"
what rules, this is what? a form? it all comes back to an attempt to send a message, not even communication per se, because the real part is always hidden, even from the sender.
Does it resonate?
Craftsmen judge on craft, no?
Artists judge, do they? They either see, or they don't. Then they descibe the craft.
Me, I just look at the crime scene, is this interesting enough to pursue the MO, the craftmanship of these little wisps of ego, to arrive at my own set of false conclusions.

Tara, how good to see you back, engaged in this...as the one who perhaps left the best comments, outside of YDD. It is a shame more do not emulate your style of comments. Relte is halfway there, a half bow to him.

 

[Fflow]

Randomness

Here is a segment of a much larger poem that I've been working on for more than a year! I've not posted it before because I feared that the typical lit reader would be incapable of 1) recognizing it as art, 2) reading into it, beyond the form, & 3) because it isn't racy... However, I think it is illustrative of what we're discussing (at least at this point). I'm going to post it, hope for some comments, then I will share the process I used to create it. ok? Here goes:

The Body
By Fflow

gaseous hilarity
digestive discovery
insubordinate colon
ominous constipate
gastrointestinal prize
canvas bellyache
indigestion wristwatch
plastic arrear
belly curfew
derriere camelback diameter

drunken chick
circumvent biology
frenetic cervix appeasable
happy hotbox
curiosity womb droop
inadequacy biometry
submersible kombu nipple
climax deception
transcendental contraception
embryonic restraint

clean torso
appendix cockpit
camelback idiot
souvenir glottis
sinew insurrection
breastplate meningitis
damascus toe
holystone armpit
harelip bumblebee
rudolf thornton fingernail
skull concessionaire
clown crack complementation
noble bobble thyroid ascetic

cardiac diego
pulmonary hothouse
soggy insurrection
clone ethology
electrolytic antigen fantasy
papillary asparagus
clever dexterity
sight fluid sanction
wishbone brigade

awesome psychobiology
incontrovertible epidemiology
strategic glucose consonant
masculine avalanche burial

thigh haul malady
hydrophobia daydream
pavlov oncology
redbird arthritis knockdown
tungstate amnesia
hard glossed hepatitis
lymphoma brandy
cancerous blackmail
postmortem ignition



...

 

[brightlyiburn]

Having made a point to go and read all your poems..I'm having a hard time figuring out why it's being compared to the invention of the wheel or Picasso or why you think it's " hard to understand.
In my opinion it's pretty straight forward, has a touch of " teenage goth angst" about it,and most people reacted favorably to it from what I can see
So what's the big deal?
Your " readers" seem to get it and enjoy it.

I was actually throwing my support behind Fflow.
Most of what I write in poetry is simple, even if it is symbolic. I'm not a poet by nature.
It's good to see someone who writes poetry because he loves to do it. In poetry circles, the best poets aren't the conventional ones. Unique poetry is the best kind, because you never know what to expect.

 

[duckiesmut]

Unique poetry is the best kind, because you never know what to expect.

I tend to think that the best poetry isn't necessarily the most unique. We all have our definitions for what makes good poetry, and as is apparent, everyone will not always agree.

However, to me, for example in music, the best isn't necessarily one man playing the bongos while warbling an operatic ballad. Unique? Yes. Best? Most definitely not.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either bongos or unique poetry. Just that its uniqueness does not necessarily make it good.

 

[tarablackwood22]

Here is a segment of a much larger poem that I've been working on for more than a year! I've not posted it before because I feared that the typical lit reader would be incapable of 1) recognizing it as art, 2) reading into it, beyond the form, & 3) because it isn't racy... However, I think it is illustrative of what we're discussing (at least at this point). I'm going to post it, hope for some comments, then I will share the process I used to create it. ok? Here goes:

The Body
By Fflow

gaseous hilarity
digestive discovery
insubordinate colon
ominous constipate
gastrointestinal prize
canvas bellyache
indigestion wristwatch
plastic arrear
belly curfew
derriere camelback diameter

drunken chick
circumvent biology
frenetic cervix appeasable
happy hotbox
curiosity womb droop
inadequacy biometry
submersible kombu nipple
climax deception
transcendental contraception
embryonic restraint

clean torso
appendix cockpit
camelback idiot
souvenir glottis
sinew insurrection
breastplate meningitis
damascus toe
holystone armpit
harelip bumblebee
rudolf thornton fingernail
skull concessionaire
clown crack complementation
noble bobble thyroid ascetic

cardiac diego
pulmonary hothouse
soggy insurrection
clone ethology
electrolytic antigen fantasy
papillary asparagus
clever dexterity
sight fluid sanction
wishbone brigade

awesome psychobiology
incontrovertible epidemiology
strategic glucose consonant
masculine avalanche burial

thigh haul malady
hydrophobia daydream
pavlov oncology
redbird arthritis knockdown
tungstate amnesia
hard glossed hepatitis
lymphoma brandy
cancerous blackmail
postmortem ignition



...

Fflow,

Maybe because I just returned from the grocery, but this looks to me like the shopping list I just discarded, just more a bit more intricate and concentrated in its biology. One item per line.

romaine lettuce
asparagus tips
hearts of palm
cucumbers <--------------(no cracks, boys)
apple juice
orange juice vitamin c enhanced
skim milk………….

etc. etc.

I’d be interested in your explanation on how I am supposed to significantly differentiate the two, the mundane from the art.

I’d also be interested in you explaining your fears about the incapacities of the typical lit reader in relation to the complexities you must believe are present in this poem.

I don’t see them.

Tara

 

[Fflow]

Thanks Brightly

Thanks for the support, Brightly. In a stupid attempt to shift the discussion back to the actual topic, let me state my contention one last time:

We, each of us, perceive the universe through a filter of consciousness. Our experience, personality, intellect, and expectations create meaning which is imposed upon the world. Meaning, objectively, does not exist. It is a creative act that we participate in, knowingly or not, in each moment. The issue at hand is whether we choose to take responsibility for our choices.

When I read the words "I like fish", my mind immediately leaps to the image of pretty tropical fish in a salt-water tank, swimming happily amongst rocks and pirate treasure chests. Someone else, however, might picture a beautifully grilled piece of salmon served on a bed of wilted asparagus. Is one interpretation better, or wrong? No. It is simply that meaning is subjective, just like ideas of good, bad, etc.

Therefore, when one reads a poem and has a reaction, a thoughtful and self-aware person should be able to take a moment to understand why that reaction was generated. What part of one's self caused the reaction?

If one is moved to vote on the poem, then share an "I feel" or, if necessary, an "I think" but never a "you should" unless invited to do so by the author.

Really very simple.

 

[Fflow]

Tara - Shopping List

Your poem, Shopping List, was both beautiful and moving. It revealed a side of you I didn't know before. Thank you, sincerely, for sharing yourself so honestly.

Each line, on its own, had a stark beauty but, together, they show an interesting relationship. First, one can plainly see that you start in the produce section. It becomes clear early on that you have a clear vision of your own health and well-being, balanced with an eclectic and refined palate. I can't help but wonder what you're going to do with hearts of palm.

The apple juice was a real suprise for me, making me wonder if, perhaps, you have a child. The enhanced OJ makes me wonder if you have a cold or, perhaps, you are afraid of getting one.

Skim milk was an inevitability, really.

---

I hope you continue to write more interesting, challenging, and engaging work. Kudos to you!

...

 

[Tathagata]

Your poem, Shopping List, was both beautiful and moving. It revealed a side of you I didn't know before. Thank you, sincerely, for sharing yourself so honestly.

Each line, on its own, had a stark beauty but, together, they show an interesting relationship. First, one can plainly see that you start in the produce section. It becomes clear early on that you have a clear vision of your own health and well-being, balanced with an eclectic and refined palate. I can't help but wonder what you're going to do with hearts of palm.

The apple juice was a real suprise for me, making me wonder if, perhaps, you have a child. The enhanced OJ makes me wonder if you have a cold or, perhaps, you are afraid of getting one.

Skim milk was an inevitability, really.

---

I hope you continue to write more interesting, challenging, and engaging work. Kudos to you!

...

Well it wasn't as enthralling as a trip through the digestive tract but then again, as a typical Lit reader I was probably incapable of recognizing the art in it

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Your poem, Shopping List, was both beautiful and moving. It revealed a side of you I didn't know before. Thank you, sincerely, for sharing yourself so honestly.

Each line, on its own, had a stark beauty but, together, they show an interesting relationship. First, one can plainly see that you start in the produce section. It becomes clear early on that you have a clear vision of your own health and well-being, balanced with an eclectic and refined palate. I can't help but wonder what you're going to do with hearts of palm.

The apple juice was a real suprise for me, making me wonder if, perhaps, you have a child. The enhanced OJ makes me wonder if you have a cold or, perhaps, you are afraid of getting one.

Skim milk was an inevitability, really.

---

I hope you continue to write more interesting, challenging, and engaging work. Kudos to you!

...

Is this an example of the type of comments you expect to receive?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

If one is moved to vote on the poem, then share an "I feel" or, if necessary, an "I think" but never a "you should" unless invited to do so by the author.

Really very simple.

You're forgetting one thing, though.

When someone says a "you should", it's common knowledge that it should be read as a "I feel you should" or a "I think you should".

Everything I write is, obviously, my opinion. If I say you should write a poem while doing a handstand, you're free to do it or not. Having to use a disclaimer such as "I feel" or "I think" seems a bit childish.

 

[minsue]

Your poem, Shopping List, was both beautiful and moving. It revealed a side of you I didn't know before. Thank you, sincerely, for sharing yourself so honestly.

Each line, on its own, had a stark beauty but, together, they show an interesting relationship. First, one can plainly see that you start in the produce section. It becomes clear early on that you have a clear vision of your own health and well-being, balanced with an eclectic and refined palate. I can't help but wonder what you're going to do with hearts of palm.

The apple juice was a real suprise for me, making me wonder if, perhaps, you have a child. The enhanced OJ makes me wonder if you have a cold or, perhaps, you are afraid of getting one.

Skim milk was an inevitability, really.

---

I hope you continue to write more interesting, challenging, and engaging work. Kudos to you!

...

That was a surprisingly snide reply to her questions considering that you've appeared sincere before now. You said you hoped for some comments and that you'd explain your process and, I had assumed, what you were intending to communicate with your poem. Tara gave you honest feedback, devoid of any sarcasm I could see, and asked you some good questions. I don't know you at all, F, but from what I had seen in this thread I had certainly expected more from you.

 

[flyguy69]

You're forgetting one thing, though.

When someone says a "you should", it's common knowledge that it should be read as a "I feel you should" or a "I think you should".

Everything I write is, obviously, my opinion. If I say you should write a poem while doing a handstand, you're free to do it or not. Having to use a disclaimer such as "I feel" or "I think" seems a bit childish.

i don't know that fflow is suggesting the inclusion of a disclaimer as much as that a reader's comments should be restricted to a discussion of their response to the poem and not include suggestions to the the author.

It is a defensable notion, and for very experienced or very thin-skinned authors it might be all that is needed. Personally, I welcome suggestions. I may not always take them, but it affords me the chance to see how another author would encode my sentiment.

And I take quite seriously my right to ignore them!

 

[Fflow]

Snide?

Dear Minsue,

I am deeply hurt that you would jump to such a conclusion. My comments were, first and foremost, illustrative of what I had been stating earlier, that one brings one's own perception to the universe, and views it through that set of filters.

My observations of Shopping List were not meant to be snide or mean spirited in any way. I simply allowed myself to engage with her words in a creative and open way, and did my best to express that inner process with words of my own.

The poem I posted earlier today, in this thread, was created from a very large collection of spam e-mail messages that contained random words. Without manipulating them in any way, I collected these words over several months and selected existing phrases that, to me, contained a certain resonance. From that list, I selected phrases that were related in some way and, in this case, the theme had to do with the body. I did not alter the word order or phrase order at all.

On one level, the laundry list metaphor is correct. The phrases can be viewed as a collection of discontinuitous, meaningless words that have no rhythm, rhyme, or structure. One could say this about any text, however.

With a creative and active imagination, I believe that one can make the phrases and stanzas sing and dance in a way that no rational process could ever hope to create. The very randomness of the word relationships creates a kind of rational disconnect that forces the reader to engage with them in a gestalt way, a way that can, I hope, be both profound and fun. In fact, one could view existance in its entirety this way and live a very wonderful (wonder-filled) life.

This is, in my understanding, the very purpose of abstract art: To evoke rather than to illustrate. To engage rather than to inform. To challenge rather than comfort.

I hope that helps just a bit.

 

[CharleyH]

(....discounting)

i'll gladly stand behind you, charley.

that opens up whole new arenas.

First things first. LOL. I would glady LOVE to have you stand behind me, but my tight little ass could hardly be described as an arena. Be gentle!

1201: It is an interesting thread. It reminds me of your interacts. Well, I never said crime scene, but I suppose all texts in pop culture could, in a pop culture way, be aptly descibed as such. It is what the interact is, in part. (the one I experienced, not meant to imply all).

"Poems can exist beyond the rules"
what rules, this is what? a form? it all comes back to an attempt to send a message, not even communication per se, because the real part is always hidden, even from the sender.
Does it resonate?
Craftsmen judge on craft, no?
Artists judge, do they? They either see, or they don't. Then they descibe the craft.
Me, I just look at the crime scene, is this interesting enough to pursue the MO, the craftmanship of these little wisps of ego, to arrive at my own set of false conclusions.

There are rules in poetry, as there is in any art. (I have a cold brewing and it is making me foggy, so be gentle) Are you saying poetry has no rules? (not sure, again, cold, foggy). Form et al was merely example, otherwise any post could turn into a Phd.

When it comes to communication, there is interference in the message, but the message should still get through. If a 'so-called' poem has no discernable message about emotion, content, metaphor, form ETC. (unlimited), then is it communicating? If it does not communicate SOME THING (whatever based on), is it poetry? Or as Lauren said, a doodle.

We all judge, we are all a part of culture, we cannot escape it. If I say, "HERE LOOK AT THIS" am I not also saying judge it? Or as Tara said earlier . . . no need to repeat.

As for seeing and not seeing, this has been my quote, quote myself for ages: People look, but do not necessarily see.

FFLOW: Thanks for the thread, and I doubt any of us are angry at eachother, debate, discussion, agree/disagree is all part of the process of continual change and growth. I appreciate every second of it. Apologies for not being able to comment on your poem today. I honestly feel I can't articulate intellectually today, or even emotinally . . .

Now getting back to Pat Carrington (is that from One Day At a Time?)

 

[CharleyH]

Thanks for the support, Brightly. In a stupid attempt to shift the discussion back to the actual topic, let me state my contention one last time:

We, each of us, perceive the universe through a filter of consciousness. Our experience, personality, intellect, and expectations create meaning which is imposed upon the world. Meaning, objectively, does not exist. It is a creative act that we participate in, knowingly or not, in each moment. The issue at hand is whether we choose to take responsibility for our choices.

When I read the words "I like fish", my mind immediately leaps to the image of pretty tropical fish in a salt-water tank, swimming happily amongst rocks and pirate treasure chests. Someone else, however, might picture a beautifully grilled piece of salmon served on a bed of wilted asparagus. Is one interpretation better, or wrong? No. It is simply that meaning is subjective, just like ideas of good, bad, etc.

Therefore, when one reads a poem and has a reaction, a thoughtful and self-aware person should be able to take a moment to understand why that reaction was generated. What part of one's self caused the reaction?

If one is moved to vote on the poem, then share an "I feel" or, if necessary, an "I think" but never a "you should" unless invited to do so by the author.

Really very simple.

Ahhh, semiotics Don't get me started!

One needs to vote how they feel. Sometimes, people need to re-write for you because they cannot articulate how to say it in a gentler way. Have you never gone to a movie and said "If they had have done this or that . . .?" Ie. Dracula would have been awesome if they hadn't used Keanu Reeves.

I think it is sweet, I don't necessarily agree, and sometimes, I don't understand the choices, but it is also my choice to ask why, which I will if I do not understand, and if they give me the op . . . one writes the way that they do, and for the rest of time there will be people who hate you because, simply you write, because you are in a public forum, because they can.

I personally, do not believe anything is worth a 1 vote. 2 is for effort, 3 is for fair but, 4 is for I liked it but, and 5 is for I cannot see improvements. 3's and 4's I will comment on, briefly. 5's I leave my mark. 2's? Well, what's the point, those poets, as I have experienced, don't give a shit, they want you to say look at me I am awesome.

 

[PatCarrington]

........gentle......gentle.....

 

[brightlyiburn]

This is, in my understanding, the very purpose of abstract art: To evoke rather than to illustrate. To engage rather than to inform. To challenge rather than comfort.

As my art teacher said, art is about interpertation. If your aim is to make sure that everyone gets the same thing out of your work, you'll be forever frustrated.
I find your work refreshing, Fflow. I may not "like" it in the sense that I would go out and buy a book of it, but I like your expression. Others may not understand or like what you do, but you haven't pulled your punches. I don't see a trend of changing yourself simply so people will like you. To do what you do, to continue doing what you love the way you want to do it, takes a hell of a lot more character and personality than to simply given in and adjust to what others want.
(I've bought one book of poetry to date, so don't take it hard that I probably wouldn't buy a book of your poems. The only poet who's book I bought is Saul Williams. Now there's a man with some abstract thoughts. It's a beautiful thing)

 

[minsue]

Dear Minsue,

I am deeply hurt that you would jump to such a conclusion. My comments were, first and foremost, illustrative of what I had been stating earlier, that one brings one's own perception to the universe, and views it through that set of filters.

My observations of Shopping List were not meant to be snide or mean spirited in any way. I simply allowed myself to engage with her words in a creative and open way, and did my best to express that inner process with words of my own.

The poem I posted earlier today, in this thread, was created from a very large collection of spam e-mail messages that contained random words. Without manipulating them in any way, I collected these words over several months and selected existing phrases that, to me, contained a certain resonance. From that list, I selected phrases that were related in some way and, in this case, the theme had to do with the body. I did not alter the word order or phrase order at all.

On one level, the laundry list metaphor is correct. The phrases can be viewed as a collection of discontinuitous, meaningless words that have no rhythm, rhyme, or structure. One could say this about any text, however.

With a creative and active imagination, I believe that one can make the phrases and stanzas sing and dance in a way that no rational process could ever hope to create. The very randomness of the word relationships creates a kind of rational disconnect that forces the reader to engage with them in a gestalt way, a way that can, I hope, be both profound and fun. In fact, one could view existance in its entirety this way and live a very wonderful (wonder-filled) life.

This is, in my understanding, the very purpose of abstract art: To evoke rather than to illustrate. To engage rather than to inform. To challenge rather than comfort.

I hope that helps just a bit.

Fflow, I think we'll not see eye to eye on this one. It was quite obvious to me that your response to Tara was intending to "illustrate what you had been stating earlier", but it still reads as a snide and sarcastic way to do so. I am not telling you this to offend you, F. It is simply the way your post comes across to me.

I suppose that would be the point of feedback. Honest feedback, that is. It lets you know if you were successful in evoking the emotions, images, ideas, what have you that you were intending to have come across to the reader. What you do with that information and whether or not you decide to alter anything in that particular work or in the future is up to you. For many, myself included, writing is simply a way to exorcize the demons. Anyone reading it is largely secondary, though I still welcome any and all criticism because I learn from it and because I'm always curious how my words are translated by others. For many other people, it is a vital way to communicate in which case it is important to actually be able to do so. If their words don't translate to the readers, they have failed. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish and why you write at all.

 

[Fflow]

Points Proved

Dear Minsue,

Its kinda funny, actually. Your perception of my comments as snide illustrates perfectly my contention that intent and perception quite often have little to do with one another. You could, of course, argue that I failed to communicate effectively, thus causing you to misapprehend the meaning and tone of my comments.

On the other hand, one could just as easily argue that it was your own preconceptions, perceptions, and intellectual habits that caused you to see my comments in that light. If you view the world has hostile and insincere, even the most heart-felt and sincere expressions will seen snide and sarcastic. That, though, is not the world I choose to live in. You are, most certainly, welcome to it, however.

Peace...

fflow