Acceptable punishments

[BiBunny]

My mistake, as I understand it, is not communicating my misgivings/eventual fear. I just went straight to panic. I thought I could push it to the back of my mind and press on, so it had the chance to build past what I can handle. I should have cried 'yellow', or at least tapped out earlier. Then I would have been able to explain myself.

Someone needs to explain to the man that PANIC means you have no control over it. This is another one of those situations where Bunny says, "You're fully within your rights to kick him in the nuts." You can't build trust by punishing someone for something they have no control over. And the breakdown of trust is going to cause things like this to happen more and more often.

But I'm going to bow out. Shit like this pisses me off. It's not necessary to play the fucking uber-Dom all the time. Sometimes the most useful thing a Dom/me can do is just fucking listen.

 

[nh23]

Well, we've already been over Bunny's feelings about punishment, but I'd break somebody's goddamned neck if THEY screwed up, and I got "punished" for it.

Fuck.

That.

Shit.

This is also a reason that I say most good Dom/mes have spent time on the bottom. Yes, goddammit, there is, in fact, a place you can hit in your mind where you're not capable of using a safeword, whether you believe it or not. I'm pretty notorious for it, actually, for going from 0 to "OMG, make it stop!" in 2.5 seconds. It's why I won't play with people who say they'll only stop if I safeword.

And, seriously, what the hell is wrong with plain English? It's also really not that hard to read body language if somebody's unable to speak. If I say, "No more," then I mean FUCKING STOP. I don't know why people have to make this shit harder than it really is.

But, yeah, I don't think punishing someone for your fuck-ups is going to increase the amount of trust they have in you. But what do I know, right?

You know I agree with you Bunny. Once when my Dom and I were in a scene he hit a mental trigger. I freaked out. Was crying hysterically and could not remember what I was supposed to do to make it stop. Luckily he's very good at paying attention to my body language and stopped everything. He just held me and talked to me until I was back on earth. I can't imagine how devastating it would have been had I been punished for it. It wasn't my fault..I wasn't disobeying, I had a flashback. And anyone who has ever had one knows..there is no way to just say wait a minute I need to safeword..

 

[catalina_francisco]

4) The reason this "search for punishment ideas" came about is that she made what I consider a dangerous mistake. We got into a situation where she forgot to use her safeword or tap out when she should have. She was afraid of what _might_ happen next and freaked, so I stopped things myself. I'm yet not sure completely sure why it happened; we still need to talk it over in some depth. Maybe it was a momentary lapse in trust, or maybe she was just overwhelmed. We discussed it some at the time, enough that we were both OK when we separated later that night.

I can get where you are coming from and don't find it that abhorrent or strange, in fact it could actually prevent something worse happening in the future. From what you say, you stopped things when you realised they were not going well. What else could you do? You also seem to be planning to talk more about what happened and why which is good and also necessary IMHO. Punishment in this circumstance is not related to her panic, nor your not getting your fun, but to reminding her the importance of using a safeword if and when you have one...sort of a tough love approach which often is vital in circumstances where there is significant danger in not following the safeword policy.

It is great to think PYL's should be able to read minds but reality is it is not always 100% sure they will and can...in those circumstances it is the responsibility of the pyl to have enough control over themselves to safeword, or if that is not possible, rethink playing in certain ways in the future. Some pyl's will say they don't use it because they want to please. That is fine but many of those same pyl's hold the PYL responsible if any real damage occurs as a result of their not taking their share of the responsibility. I don't think that is acceptable, nor excuseable, and yes, it was one of the ideas I had in my head in early days which I was fortunate enough to have educated out of me by the experienced and concientious PYL's I played with. I am sure if you had continued and things had gone terribly bad, you would be getting hauled over the coals here for being negligent...much better to educate now than wait for such a situation to arise.

Catalina

 

[SweetErika]

The punishment in this situation is irrelevant except that it forces her to think about what happened. I want her to realize that safewords are necessary at times.

Is it your position that she could have used her safeword, but consciously chose not to do so, due to pride or fear of being punished for using it or whatever?

Or was she unable to find her safeword/signal due to panic?

In other words, did she make an active decision to not use it, or was not using it a passive response?

There may come a time when we are not together or I may allow her to sub to someone else. She needs to know how to respond with a safeword instead of panic when things get uncomfortable or out of hand when she's not with someone that can read her as well as I can.

Have you ever been in a similar situation (sexual, a BDSM scene, etc.) and panicked?

With all due respect, the above makes me think you haven't had a similar experience or don't truly understand the what often happens when others have that reaction.

While I haven't panicked in a scene, I have done so in sexual situations, and I can tell you it's a visceral reaction that involves very little or no thought, and actually prevents logical thought most of the time. For me, it's like everything just freezes up; I feel and hear my body reacting instinctively, but my brain ceases to make connections, decisions and force my body to take action.

I know for a fact that if I superimposed that panic reaction onto a scene, I wouldn't be able to give a safe word or signal at that time. And it'd be unreasonable for anyone (myself included) to expect me to do a logical thing like remember and call a safe word or tap out if I were in a panicked, or otherwise seriously altered, state. I'd have to depend on the Top to keep me safe by stopping the scene and taking other appropriate action. On the other side, it'd be my responsibility as an intelligent bottom to only play with people who understand altered states like panic can interfere with one's ability to judge and communicate when something is wrong, generally have good judgment themselves and are willing to use that in an effort to keep me safe.

No matter how much you talk about it and "test your security systems," I think you two have to realize that she may encounter situations in which panic (or another reaction that alters her ability to think and act logically) strikes quickly, without any warning or clear trigger, and not be able to use her safe word, signal or otherwise communicate clearly. It happens, no matter how much we prepare, try to prevent or change it. It's very easy to think how we could or should react in any given situation, but the reality of how we *actually* react is often far different.

The real lesson then is that neither of you should put her in the hands of someone who isn't fully aware safe words/signals are not a fail safe measure, and willing and able to act in her best interest, in ways that err on the side of caution, even though it may ruin their fun. It's a matter of you two having the good sense to choose other Tops who have the common sense, knowledge and are ethical enough to prioritize her welfare, instead of relying on her to act logically in every situation.

Please understand I'm simply trying to share my experience and perspectives, rather than criticize you or yours here.

 

[Stegral]

**inserts my safewords**
these are "taught" in our group...
most of us drive so the base is already there...

Green: good & keep going please

Yellow: Getting close to a limit, slow down...

Red: Stop NOW, limit hit, we need to talk...

Worst case most of us know red means danger...
Stop signs are red here in Canada/USA so it is a start.
(not sure about elsewhere, only been to the USA)

every once in a while the Dom/Top asks for a colour.
there have been variations on the main three that made the Dom/Top stop & think...
(OUCHIE GREEN & PINK,PINK,PINK!!!!!)
The rest of us a grand laugh about once the situation was cooled down & the subbie was ok...

pretty much any colour spewed out during scene causes any of us to stop & take notice...

 

[Blushing Bottom]

No punishment is acceptable for me. If I must be punished that means I have done something wrong or failed at something I should have mastered within a given time frame. Either is a source of shame for me and I prefer to not feel shame. I work hard to never get punished...I have failed to accomplish that as yet but rarely do I get punished/corrected/disciplined.

I was asked by my Master to think of alternate punishments for when I mis-behaved. Beyond the expected spankings or occasional slap. I'm drawing a complete blank, so I thought I'd ask your opinions.

What kind of punishments would you use / have you used in the past? And why?

 

[lux221]

i'm probably going to piss you off here. if my "Dom" punished me because i panicked, i'd kick him in the balls and find a Dom that gave a shit about my state of mind. if i panic it means something is very, very wrong.

maybe instead of punishing you your dom needs to consider that communicating with you is more important, and agree upon something that is acceptable to you both, if panic sets in again. in my opinion, this isn't a time to punish, but a time to communicate. what went wrong? why? what can we do to stop it, or make you feel safer if it happens again? but whatever, it's your relationship.

 

[BiBunny]

i'm probably going to piss you off here. if my "Dom" punished me because i panicked, i'd kick him in the balls and find a Dom that gave a shit about my state of mind. if i panic it means something is very, very wrong.

maybe instead of punishing you your dom needs to consider that communicating with you is more important, and agree upon something that is acceptable to you both, if panic sets in again. in my opinion, this isn't a time to punish, but a time to communicate. what went wrong? why? what can we do to stop it, or make you feel safer if it happens again? but whatever, it's your relationship.

I almost said that myself.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm having a little trouble understanding how you all missed reading comprehension classes during your years at school.

My mistake, as I understand it, is not communicating my misgivings/eventual fear. I just went straight to panic. I thought I could push it to the back of my mind and press on, so it had the chance to build past what I can handle. I should have cried 'yellow', or at least tapped out earlier. Then I would have been able to explain myself.

The reason this "search for punishment ideas" came about is that she made what I consider a dangerous mistake. We got into a situation where she forgot to use her safeword or tap out when she should have. She was afraid of what _might_ happen next and freaked, so I stopped things myself. I'm yet not sure completely sure why it happened; we still need to talk it over in some depth. Maybe it was a momentary lapse in trust, or maybe she was just overwhelmed. We discussed it some at the time, enough that we were both OK when we separated later that night.

Both snowbyte and Curious_L have said the punishment is for not using the safeword (and from my understanding of both their words, meaning before panic was the stage reached), instead letting it get to panic stage, NOT for having a panic attack....2 completely different things IMO and from what I have read, the punishment is in the hope she will not be in a similar situation when he is not there and suffer the consequences of not using her safeword appropriately...seems fairly responsible to me. They also have said they have talked about it and will continue to in an effort to see what caused everything to unravel, so seems there is plenty of communicating going on also. Where does any of that translate to her being punished for going into panic?

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

I'm having a little trouble understanding how you all missed reading comprehension classes during your years at school.

I read perfectly well, thank you very much.

Both snowbyte and Curious_L have said the punishment is for not using the safeword (and from my understanding of both their words, meaning before panic was the stage reached), instead letting it get to panic stage, NOT for having a panic attack....2 completely different things IMO and from what I have read, the punishment is in the hope she will not be in a similar situation when he is not there and suffer the consequences of not using her safeword appropriately...seems fairly responsible to me. Where does any of that translate to her being punished for going into panic?

Catalina

Have you ever thought you could handle something and then suddenly realize you can't? I have. And I'd damned well better be met with understanding if it happens, too.

Again, as much as everybody on this damned forum jacks off to the "COMMUNICATE" command, you'd think they'd see that this is a fundamental breakdown in communication. I've got to back out of these fucking threads before I lose my shit one day and say exactly what I think about this kind of bullshit.

So, y'all, have fun with this one. Just stop with the implications that I'm somehow stupid because I don't see things the way you do.

 

[nh23]

I'm having a little trouble understanding how you all missed reading comprehension classes during your years at school.





Both snowbyte and Curious_L have said the punishment is for not using the safeword (and from my understanding of both their words, meaning before panic was the stage reached), instead letting it get to panic stage, NOT for having a panic attack....2 completely different things IMO and from what I have read, the punishment is in the hope she will not be in a similar situation when he is not there and suffer the consequences of not using her safeword appropriately...seems fairly responsible to me. They also have said they have talked about it and will continue to in an effort to see what caused everything to unravel, so seems there is plenty of communicating going on also. Where does any of that translate to her being punished for going into panic?

Catalina

My mistake, as I understand it, is not communicating my misgivings/eventual fear. I just went straight to panic. I thought I could push it to the back of my mind and press on, so it had the chance to build past what I can handle. I should have cried 'yellow', or at least tapped out earlier. Then I would have been able to explain myself

She wrote I just went straight to panic. Which to me implies that she didn't have time to think let alone use her safeword before she was in full panic mode. And like I said earlier having been there myself..there is no fucking way if you are having a flashback, panic attack etc..that you can be held responsible for what your body does to you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Originally Posted by BiBunny View Post


Have you ever thought you could handle something and then suddenly realize you can't?

No, I actually have as you know from what I have shared here, and been dealing with it for over 2 years. Doesn't change the fact that if I had been allowed to just feel the only option I had was to not fight back against the panic and let it control me, him, and our life, we would not be well on the road to recovery now....nor would he have understood what was happeing or been able to help me. It is too easy to blame someone for trying to manage a problem while wrapping the other in cotton wool and then wondering what went wrong when they find themselves in a worse position down the track.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

No, I actually have as you know from what I have shared here, and been dealing with it for over 2 years. Doesn't change the fact that if I had been allowed to just feel the only option I had was to not fight back against the panic and let it control me, him, and our life, we would not be well on the road to recovery now....nor would he have understood what was happeing or been able to help me. It is too easy to blame someone for trying to manage a problem while wrapping the other in cotton wool and then wondering what went wrong when they find themselves in a worse position down the track.

Catalina

But you don't have a safeword, do you? So how does that compute?

Color me confused.

 

[serijules]

I have a bit of a different take on this.

I understand the punishment for not safewording. I've been in such a situation. Here is a recent example...

In Jan during my visit with the family, I got into a "fight" of sorts with Ma'ams sub, C. I was upset with C for being snappy, which led into an argument about a miscommunication involving dinner and whose responsibility certain things were. I was very very upset with C for the things she was saying and how the conversation was going, and ended up having a panic attack. I have a hard time dealing with confrontation and I was upset about the conversation going off on a different track than I intended. I ended up crying so hard I couldn't even talk anymore over something that should have been a rather minor conversation. (aka, panic attack) I later realized I was off on my medication schedule, which usually results in anxiety attacks.

I excused myself to go to my room, and couldn't calm down. Ma'am came in and asked me to calm down and bring myself downstairs. I didn't need to talk or interact, but she wanted me downstairs with her. I couldn't calm down, so she left me be for awhile.

The next morning I was punished. Why? Because I had a panic attack? Because I was upset with C? Because I was crying?

No, none of the above. I'm entitled to my feelings. I'm also trained to obey my owner and trust she knows best for me, especially in times where I'm very upset and can't think straight. We know this from years together and previous episodes.

I was punished because I took myself away from her and wallowed in my panic rather than making the efforts to put myself in a better, safer place (at her feet with the rest of the family) versus alone in my room, allowing myself to get more and more agitated and upset. Ma'am has taught me what kind of behaviour she expects in such situations while making it clear I'm allowed to feel what I feel. Those feelings don't lessen her expectations of me to obey her and not take myself "away".

Thus the punishment, to remind me of those expectations. The rest of the feelings were dealt with, talked about, supported and resolved at another time, with the negativity of disobeying her dealt with. Next time I'm in a panic mode, I'm betting that punishment will remind me of how I'm expected to act as her slave. She's given me guidance as to how to approach her when I need support and I failed to make the right choice. Next time, I'll likely make the right one and a lot of crying, panic and lost time would have been avoided.

It's how we function and it works for us. It may not make sense to many of you, but....you are not me nor her so it doesn't really matter. I don't have any kind of negative association with being punished regarding fairness or whatnot...it's a well established part of our relationship that really, truly WORKS for us. We don't need a reason, just the proof of results.

Back to the current topic. The way I see it, her failing to safeword is a completely different issue than the panic she felt or the reasons she didn't safeword. He had an expectation of her, she didn't follow it, he wishes to leave an impression of just how dangerous this can be. Her panic is a different issue, and I'm sure he understands and supports her in her feelings.

Her behaviour however, was unacceptable. Thus the punishment. Maybe for them the punishment will be a way to clear the air and open up the communication void of disappointment or any feelings of lingering "failure" she may have or whatnot and leave a path free to talk about and fine tune the more important issue of how to avoid this in the future, and how to make her feel more comfortable using this safeguard he obviously expects.

I get it. *shrugs*

 

[catalina_francisco]

DP

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

But you don't have a safeword, do you? So how does that compute?

Color me confused.

It computes in that yes, I do know what it is like to go into something imagining there will be no problem as you have done it a million times before only to find yourself screaming the house down with barely any warning or obvious reason...and it was managed with lots of communication, work, determination. If I had a safeword, I would have expected to have been punished for not using it when I felt the first bit of unease...that could have been when I first opened my mouth to scream. I just don't see why people keep saying it is about her being punished for panicing when it is clearly stated it is about not safewording, and is being done in the interestes of protecting her in the future...the guy is not punishing her for losing control and then expecting her to be perfect, he is trying to make a point in her psyche that this is not something to mess around with hoping you can handle it on your own when it involves 2 people, not 1.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

I apologize. I never should've stepped into this thread to begin with. And, then, I should've stayed away like I said I was going to do. Now, I'm going to stop looking before I have a Life_Noir-type meltdown on the circular reasoning and the superiority complexes demonstrated 'round this place.

 

[catalina_francisco]

She wrote I just went straight to panic. Which to me implies that she didn't have time to think let alone use her safeword before she was in full panic mode. And like I said earlier having been there myself..there is no fucking way if you are having a flashback, panic attack etc..that you can be held responsible for what your body does to you.

I maybe misread it, but I took that to be she felt it coming on (her reference to not communicating her fear etc.) and thought it was manageable so didn't say anything and went straight on into panic mode instead of the period of management she felt she might have available. I know what full-on panic attacks are like, especially in such moments, and from what I read they are both communicating about it and he is trying to protect her in the future, not punish her for having a panic attack.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I apologize. I never should've stepped into this thread to begin with. And, then, I should've stayed away like I said I was going to do. Now, I'm going to stop looking before I have a Life_Noir-type meltdown on the circular reasoning and the superiority complexes demonstrated 'round this place.

Sheesh, why are you apologising, not to mention leaving the thread. Why is it everyone wants to be agreed with and can't take part in a discussion where there is not 100% support for what they think/say. For all I know I could have it wrong, but does that doesn't mean I will disappear from the thread in protest. Discussion is how we learn and grow and everyone has a right to put their points and views forward.

Catalina

 

[nh23]

I maybe misread it, but I took that to be she felt it coming on (her reference to not communicating her fear etc.) and thought it was manageable so didn't say anything and went straight on into panic mode instead of the period of management she felt she might have available. I know what full-on panic attacks are like, especially in such moments, and from what I read they are both communicating about it and he is trying to protect her in the future, not punish her for having a panic attack.

Catalina

Who knows. I'm only going by what she wrote and her statement that she went straight to panic. I'm still unclear on what the hell she's being punished for.

On another note. I feel like I'm in bizzaro Lit world. I've seen threads just like this many, many times. And everyone is quick to say that it is not our job to think up punishments etc.. That it's an individual thing..yada yada.

 

[nh23]

Sheesh, why are you apologising, not to mention leaving the thread. Why is it everyone wants to be agreed with and can't take part in a discussion where there is not 100% support for what they think/say. For all I know I could have it wrong, but does that doesn't mean I will disappear from the thread in protest. Discussion is how we learn and grow and everyone has a right to put their points and views forward.

Catalina

Cat, I think that's her attempt at civility.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Who knows. I'm only going by what she wrote and her statement that she went straight to panic. I'm still unclear on what the hell she's being punished for.

On another note. I feel like I'm in bizzaro Lit world. I've seen threads just like this many, many times. And everyone is quick to say that it is not our job to think up punishments etc.. That it's an individual thing..yada yada.

True, and I am not into coming up with punishments for others and didn't...just not sure why everyone jumped on the guy for wanting her to realise how vital safewords are in these circumstances. I am aware punishment is not everyone's way, but we also do say often we try and tolerate each other's differences and different ways.

Catalina

 

[nh23]

True, and I am not into coming up with punishments for others and didn't...just not sure why everyone jumped on the guy for wanting her to realise how vital safewords are in these circumstances. I am aware punishment is not everyone's way, but we also do say often we try and tolerate each other's differences and different ways.

Catalina

Nah, I didn't mean you in particular. Just the whole thread in general. Threads like this normally don't make it past the first page. By looking back at the old ones it seems like it's sort of a sheep mentality thing. If one person offers advice then others give ideas on the punishment. On the other hand if everyone starts to say we're not giving you wank off material, or it's not our job to think of punishments then others follow suit. Or maybe it's the moods of the posters on that particular day. I have no idea. I just know this thread has confused the shit out of me.

 

[snowbyte]

Well, we've already been over Bunny's feelings about punishment, but I'd break somebody's goddamned neck if THEY screwed up, and I got "punished" for it.

Nobody screwed up. she freaked/froze, I stopped the scene, and all is well. We talked it over (again) and part of this quest for a punishment is to get her to better understand the importance of safewords. Her training will be tuned a bit as a result but that's an ongoing process.

Yes, goddammit, there is, in fact, a place you can hit in your mind where you're not capable of using a safeword, whether you believe it or not. I'm pretty notorious for it, actually, for going from 0 to "OMG, make it stop!" in 2.5 seconds.

she quickly gets to a state where she is effectively unable to verbalize because of the intensity of the situation. I know this and I watch for this. she also has the opportunity to tap out, which has proves to be useful in public situations.

It's also really not that hard to read body language if somebody's unable to speak.

Understood. That's what happened here. She gets flustered easily and it keeps me on my toes.

But, yeah, I don't think punishing someone for your fuck-ups is going to increase the amount of trust they have in you.

The intent here is not the punishment but the thought that goes into it. If anything, our trust will be improved by this introspection. Just letting this pass would have accomplished nothing.

But what do I know, right?

Quite a bit, actually. Thanks much.

 

[FungiUg]

Y'know... if someone wants to do something his way, why are we offended at that? Isn't that the whole point of being a dominant?

Sure, we don't all do it that way. Some of us deliberately never do it that way. But that doesn't mean it's an invalid approach -- after all, we are not the people involved. Different strokes for different folks.

It's okay to compare and contrast, but assuming that something that is valid for me should therefor be valid for everyone is just plain stupid of me.

This isn't about superiority or school or training or anything like that. It's simply about accepting that different people have different opinions and approaches and they can all be valid.

As for me... I don't like giving punishments. To be, a punishment feels like a failure to me as well as the submissive. I prefer to build up with a series of wins, and focus on the positive. Yes, I will punish if I have to, usually to make it a reminder. But that's not what it's all about for me.

So I'm different again to a lot of what has been discussed here. No big deal. Diversity is a large part of why this is all so much fun!