AFTER - hoping for some feedback

[EveAnna]

I've just read all three chapters - I'm enjoying the way the story in panning out, I also like the main characters Eva and John.

I like your style of writing Varian P and can't wait to read the next chapters.

 

[christabelll]

Well...
Truly an interesting read.
The premise while very unsettling is worth delving into.
While the voice of this story is quite different that of Hurt or Changed Girl, it still is strong and direct.
The moral dilemas, the "action", while disturbing make me want to know where you are taking it.
Violence as a whole I do not agree with, and violence against women in particular I abhor. But I have written my own scenes that involve this, and while I may not be "into" it, it serves it purpose well.
In many ways, this is similar in approach as The Handmaidens Tale...
Well Done... even if I don't like some of it... its a very good story...

I did not read it to get off... I read it like I approach any story...What world am I being drawn into, what reality is being spun with the written word. Who are these people, what makes them tick etc... You wove a skillful alternate reality and for that - Brava!

 

[ninefe2dg]

Through Ch. 3...

...am with you to the end on this one! I very much like Ch 2 and 3, am very impressed you've differentiated the three sex scenes, each serving a distinct purpose.

Do you think you need more context in these Chapters? I realize it's critical to establish John's and Eva's relationship (her conflicted emotions are very very well portrayed) early on? Since I don't know how long the entire story is yet perhaps I'm just a bit impatient! I'd be "settled in" if I knew I'd just read the first three chapters of a 400 page novel I guess!

When John and Eva are alone are they recorded? If they suspect they are would they be a bit more measured in their conversations? Would they figure out non-verbal ways to communicate? Or is John bought into Smith's scheme (I'm guessing no, and less so the closer he gets to Eve)

I'm not convinced her room is totally suicide proof. Does it need to be?

Is homosexuality verboten in the community? I'd have thought at some point before Eva arrived some of the boys might start looking good to each other. Might also be a question a newcomer, even a woman, might ask.

"Smith told him they must see"--isn't that moot from John's perspective. Fucking her for real wasn't going to be an issue, and you establish a couple paragraphs later that the boys got the X-rated angle.

[Paraphrasing]--always like this when you wake up? "No." At 29, yes it is!! I thought sure he was getting the blow job right then and there. You got me! Just a little touching was perfect there! Regarding my comment in another thread re "all you need is dick, cock, and penis" in the schlang repertoire, I'm officially adding Prometheus to the mix. In fact, that's what I'm calling mine from here on out. Thank you for that...

When she says "fucked" for the first time I could hear the awkwardness as she said it. Beautiful!

I'm enjoying the story immensely, hope some of my morsels for thought are useful.

 

[Varian P]

I've just read all three chapters - I'm enjoying the way the story in panning out, I also like the main characters Eva and John.

I like your style of writing Varian P and can't wait to read the next chapters.

Hi EveAnna,
Thanks for the compliments! I'm glad you're enjoying the story.
-Varian

 

[Varian P]

Hi Christabel. Thanks for offering your comments.

Well...
Truly an interesting read...
While the voice of this story is quite different that of Hurt or Changed Girl, it still is strong and direct.

I'm glad to hear I managed to create a different voice for this story; that was certainnly my intention, as I started, but sometimes I doubt how well I'm succeeding. So, thanks for that.

...The premise while very unsettling is worth delving into.
...The moral dilemas, the "action", while disturbing make me want to know where you are taking it.
Violence as a whole I do not agree with, and violence against women in particular I abhor. But I have written my own scenes that involve this, and while I may not be "into" it, it serves it purpose well.

While both Changed Girl and Hurt play with the idea of sexy non-consensual sex (in highly rarified circumstances in which it is really about discovering and giving the woman what she wants or needs), in After I hope I've succeeded in making the violence and coercion ugly, rather than an eroticised fantasy. I'm leaving most of the rapes off-camera, or depicting them in broad strokes, rather than zooming in to show them up close.

The point, in part, is to show that as a contrast to the way people like John and Eva succeed in being kind to each other despite the horrific circumstances, to explore how individuals can choose to act ethically and do good in situations that give license to do harm.

In many ways, this is similar in approach as The Handmaidens Tale...

Someone else mentioned that to me a while back, so as I was getting ready to start putting the story up, I decided to read Atwood's novel. Though the plot is entirely different, there are certainly a lot of similar themes and circumstances.

BTW, after I'd finished reading, I watched the movie they made based on the novel. Yipes, was that a horror! A cautionary tale to writers everywhere hoping to see their story on the big screen someday.

Well Done... even if I don't like some of it... its a very good story...
I did not read it to get off... I read it like I approach any story...What world am I being drawn into, what reality is being spun with the written word. Who are these people, what makes them tick etc... You wove a skillful alternate reality and for that - Brava!

That's high praise--thank you. Hopefully I manage to hold it together as that alternate reality expands beyond the walls of Eva's bedroom; I've realized that I tend to set my stories in highly insular environments, so among other things, putting these characters into a larger, more populated world is treading new ground, for me.

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your feedback!!

-V

 

[Recidiva]

Always love your stuff, Varian.

Excellent writing. I don't think the emotional content and motivation is as strong as what I've seen you create.

I am not as involved in intimacy or depth as I often am in the stuff you write. It doesn't seem to suit you as well.

Again, I might just be out of my element and category here, but I've read your other work and this, I find the previous stuff to be superior.

Thoroughly happy to see you again though if only to say - 'YAY! Varian P!"

How do you feel about it?

 

[tazgirl415]

Loved it

I just finished **quickly** reading the first chapter...mainly because I was so drawn in by the story and the characters...I just had to see how it ended!

Great characters, great storyline, I love it!

Can't wait to read the remaining chapters!

Taz


PS: Now, bafck to reading...lol

 

[Varian P]

I'm going to be absolutely spoiled, getting so much thoughtful feedback.

...am with you to the end on this one! I very much like Ch 2 and 3, am very impressed you've differentiated the three sex scenes, each serving a distinct purpose.

Thanks--there are loads of sex scenes (though most of them not as graphic and detailed as I've done in other tales), and hopefully each one helps to put across an aspect of the story, either with regard to character development, or in shedding light on the culture and mood at the base.

Do you think you need more context in these Chapters? I realize it's critical to establish John's and Eva's relationship (her conflicted emotions are very very well portrayed) early on? Since I don't know how long the entire story is yet perhaps I'm just a bit impatient! I'd be "settled in" if I knew I'd just read the first three chapters of a 400 page novel I guess!

You never know, with me. Changed Girl came in at about four hundred pages. After might be a more modest three hundred.

I do plan on pulling the camera back, so to speak, and revealing a bit more of the larger world (the base and its inhabitants). Is it that what you're eager for? Or do you mean the historical context that's created the situation?

When John and Eva are alone are they recorded? If they suspect they are would they be a bit more measured in their conversations? Would they figure out non-verbal ways to communicate? Or is John bought into Smith's scheme (I'm guessing no, and less so the closer he gets to Eve)

Eva's room is monitored by the cameras 24/7, but the room isn't bugged with super sensitive listening devices. Obviously they weren't discreet enough at first, before they realized this (so Smith found out about John's deception after the lottery). After that, I do mean for them to be reserved in their discussions; they whisper to each other when they feel their topic of conversation is sensitive, and they'll take other precautions as time goes on.

I'm not convinced her room is totally suicide proof. Does it need to be?

Smith's thinking is that he needs to take every precaution. He tries to ensure Eva's situation isn't bad enough to drive her to attempt suicide, but he also wants to ensure she would have a hard time harming herself if she decided to.

Is homosexuality verboten in the community? I'd have thought at some point before Eva arrived some of the boys might start looking good to each other. Might also be a question a newcomer, even a woman, might ask.

This issue will be explored in upcoming chapters.

Just out of curiosity (in the interest of further metadiscussions ) do you think the average straight-identified military dude would have sex with another soldier after a year or two (or five or ten) of no women being around?

"Smith told him they must see"--isn't that moot from John's perspective. Fucking her for real wasn't going to be an issue, and you establish a couple paragraphs later that the boys got the X-rated angle.

I just meant that line to explain why he's deliberately exposing her so flagrantly to the cameras, rather than keeping the sex more discreet.

[Paraphrasing]--always like this when you wake up? "No." At 29, yes it is!!

Tee hee.
Well, I really just wanted to put across that being in bed with her has an effect on him. Perhaps I should get it across another way, though.

I thought sure he was getting the blow job right then and there. You got me! Just a little touching was perfect there!

When she says "fucked" for the first time I could hear the awkwardness as she said it. Beautiful!

So glad. I want Eva to be curious and somewhat game, but also a little shy and tentative.

Regarding my comment in another thread re "all you need is dick, cock, and penis" in the schlang repertoire, I'm officially adding Prometheus to the mix. In fact, that's what I'm calling mine from here on out. Thank you for that...

Too funny. Perhaps one day you'll favor us with "An Ode on Prometheus in the Morning."

I'm enjoying the story immensely, hope some of my morsels for thought are useful.

I'm thrilled you're enjoying it so much, and always eager for more morsels! I'm ashamed to confess, I could talk about my writing until the end of days. It's the most masturbatory endeavor I know of, after masturbating. Maybe even including masturbating.

Thanks!!

-V

 

[ninefe2dg]

Replying...

I'm going to be absolutely spoiled, getting so much thoughtful feedback.

As are we, reading your stuff See also my gushy "I'm your biggest fan" comment in your public reader comments. I figured I'd spare folks on this board my "You rule, girl" comments!

You never know, with me. Changed Girl came in at about four hundred pages. After might be a more modest three hundred.

300 or 400 tells me to relax and settle in...all I need to know! Becuase I'm a little, whatever it is I am (OCD maybe?) whenever I pick up a book I carefully turn to the back page to see how long it is, making sure not to read so much as a word on it...we all have our little weirdnesses!

I do plan on pulling the camera back, so to speak, and revealing a bit more of the larger world (the base and its inhabitants). Is it that what you're eager for? Or do you mean the historical context that's created the situation?

Eager for both, but now less so now that I'm settled in! More eager for base and inhabitants, can wait on the historical context if I know it's coming...

Eva's room is monitored by the cameras 24/7, but the room isn't bugged with super sensitive listening devices. Obviously they weren't discreet enough at first, before they realized this (so Smith found out about John's deception after the lottery). After that, I do mean for them to be reserved in their discussions; they whisper to each other when they feel their topic of conversation is sensitive, and they'll take other precautions as time goes on.

OK, I had expected they would have been more discreet after finding out about the camera than they were in Ch 2-3, but I may be understating Smith's tolerance in my mind...I thought he'd be pissed, for instance, that John and Eva's first time was not in public...

This issue will be explored in upcoming chapters.

Just out of curiosity (in the interest of further metadiscussions ) do you think the average straight-identified military dude would have sex with another soldier after a year or two (or five or ten) of no women being around?

I do, yes. I'm straight, but never military...but put me in an emotional stressful situation over a long period of time with other men in the same situation and no women...and the opportunity...if I'm perfectly frank and honest, yes, I could conceivably go Brokeback. Ditto if you put me in a Turkish prison (a la Midnight Express).

I just meant that line to explain why he's deliberately exposing her so flagrantly to the cameras, rather than keeping the sex more discreet.

I may have misinterpreted the line as him reminding himself he had "better" do it for real, which to me was an unnecessary self-reminder since they'd already had sex.

Tee hee.
Well, I really just wanted to put across that being in bed with her has an effect on him. Perhaps I should get it across another way, though.

My comment walks the fine line of constructive criticism and being a smartass! It's been awhile since I've seen 29 so maybe I have selective memory. But, since erections do vary in intensity/size, he could remark it's particularly hard in such a way that she understand her presence next to him is causing a particularly righteous morning boner...

Too funny. Perhaps one day you'll favor us with "An Ode on Prometheus in the Morning."

{in a thick Bronx accent} I gotcher ode to prometheus right heee-ah! *grabs crotch*

I'm thrilled you're enjoying it so much, and always eager for more morsels! I'm ashamed to confess, I could talk about my writing until the end of days. It's the most masturbatory endeavor I know of, after masturbating. Maybe even including masturbating.

They definitely run neck and neck!

Thanks!!

My pleasure!

-V[/QUOTE]

 

[Varian P]

Always love your stuff, Varian.

Excellent writing. I don't think the emotional content and motivation is as strong as what I've seen you create.

I am not as involved in intimacy or depth as I often am in the stuff you write. It doesn't seem to suit you as well.

Again, I might just be out of my element and category here, but I've read your other work and this, I find the previous stuff to be superior.

Thoroughly happy to see you again though if only to say - 'YAY! Varian P!"

How do you feel about it?

Hi, Recidiva. Thanks so much for the feedback. It's especially interesting hearing what someone who's read my other stories thinks of this one.

I think you're dead right, that this piece is a bit more emotionally distant than "Hurt" and "Changed Girl." Even though it was intentional, to be honest, I have mixed feelings about this.

I deliberately chose to use a narrative approach where we never go inside the characters' heads, so all emotional content comes from externally-manifested stuff: facial expressions, dialogue, actions.

I did this, in part, to see if I could tell an engaging story while staying away from the emotional melodrama of "Changed Girl," where I was constantly describing Devan's terror, Vaughn's rage, etc.

[digression]I think it's fairly easy to manipulate the reader's emotions (which I basically do by imagining a scene and seeing if I have a strong emotional/visceral reaction, from bringing myself near to tears to feeling like I might be about to have a heart attack, to getting massively aroused). But the easy means of doing so start to feel a tad...cheap. I think, at times, of how I recently re-watched E.T., and how I thought the movie was thoroughly wretched, but Speilberg still managed to wring a river of tears from me with the E.T. deathbed scene, just by employing a relentlessly recycled formula of music, tears, and angsty pleading.[/digression]

Also, I think part of the reason it's less emotionally intense is that in After, Eva very quickly extricates herself from the role of the victim. She stops trembling and cowering and crying, so those emotional triggers are being withdrawn.

Again, all of this is an experiment, on my part. And I'm so-so on whether I think it's working all that well. Even though I'm trying to get away from the melodrama, I certainly don't mean to leave the reader bored, disinterested, or disengaged. And I feel a bit of those things, myself, as I re-read.

As part of my odd little experiment with After, the second half of the story is done in a completely different narrative style, entirely from the POV of one character (yet to be introduced), and I think that half of the story is much more engaging (though still, because of the nature of the character, not melodramatic).

I'd be curious to hear if you think I'm right, about the reasons After is less emotionally engaging, and any other thought that spring to mind. I very much appreciate the reality check, that you prefer the other stories. I'm a little embarassed to invoke Nabokov to explain how I feel about stuff I've written (I could only dream of being as adept at writing in my first language as he was writing in his third ), but I read once that he felt fondest of "Lolita," but felt "Invitation to a Beheading" was his best. I'll probably always feel the most deeply fond of "Changed Girl." I won't say "After" is my best, even on a technical level, but it is the first thing I've written for non-prurient reasons.

OK, no more wine for me.

 

[Recidiva]

Hi, Recidiva. Thanks so much for the feedback. It's especially interesting hearing what someone who's read my other stories thinks of this one.

I think you're dead right, that this piece is a bit more emotionally distant than "Hurt" and "Changed Girl." Even though it was intentional, to be honest, I have mixed feelings about this.

I deliberately chose to use a narrative approach where we never go inside the characters' heads, so all emotional content comes from externally-manifested stuff: facial expressions, dialogue, actions.

I did this, in part, to see if I could tell an engaging story while staying away from the emotional melodrama of "Changed Girl," where I was constantly describing Devan's terror, Vaughn's rage, etc.

[digression]I think it's fairly easy to manipulate the reader's emotions (which I basically do by imagining a scene and seeing if I have a strong emotional/visceral reaction, from bringing myself near to tears to feeling like I might be about to have a heart attack, to getting massively aroused). But the easy means of doing so start to feel a tad...cheap. I think, at times, of how I recently re-watched E.T., and how I thought the movie was thoroughly wretched, but Speilberg still managed to wring a river of tears from me with the E.T. deathbed scene, just by employing a relentlessly recycled formula of music, tears, and angsty pleading.[/digression]

Also, I think part of the reason it's less emotionally intense is that in After, Eva very quickly extricates herself from the role of the victim. She stops trembling and cowering and crying, so those emotional triggers are being withdrawn.

Again, all of this is an experiment, on my part. And I'm so-so on whether I think it's working all that well. Even though I'm trying to get away from the melodrama, I certainly don't mean to leave the reader bored, disinterested, or disengaged. And I feel a bit of those things, myself, as I re-read.

As part of my odd little experiment with After, the second half of the story is done in a completely different narrative style, entirely from the POV of one character (yet to be introduced), and I think that half of the story is much more engaging (though still, because of the nature of the character, not melodramatic).

I'd be curious to hear if you think I'm right, about the reasons After is less emotionally engaging, and any other thought that spring to mind. I very much appreciate the reality check, that you prefer the other stories. I'm a little embarassed to invoke Nabokov to explain how I feel about stuff I've written (I could only dream of being as adept at writing in my first language as he was writing in his third ), but I read once that he felt fondest of "Lolita," but felt "Invitation to a Beheading" was his best. I'll probably always feel the most deeply fond of "Changed Girl." I won't say "After" is my best, even on a technical level, but it is the first thing I've written for non-prurient reasons.

OK, no more wine for me.

Oh good!

I'm glad what I said was helpful, I was afraid I should apologize and grovel and such. You know, not lavishing deserved praise. Unfortunately now I expect you to be really damn good, and since you already are, I figure you got that part covered and tried to cut to the only thing that might be the slightest bit constructive. If you know you're intentionally doing it, then that fits perfectly with the story and you're accomplishing exactly what you set out to do.

I know what you mean about rereading. Sounds like what I've done myself, but I think that's a natural process of writing where your eyes start to glaze over the stuff you've memorized and sticks on things that don't ring right, like a piano slowly coming into tune string by string. Weird thing is, when I've suddenly gotten everything into tune, sometimes I don't want to touch it, not sure why exactly. Even if other people say it's good, my eyes will glaze over at the sight of it. Some stuff I write I can come back to and sink into it like a comforing melody, but I've also developed an allergy to some stuff I've written and I consciously evade reading it again. Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing, for me it's just an unnamed phenomena.

Sometimes I've gotten into the sense of not wanting to read something I've written when I feel I'm looking around for someone else's truth. Not mine, but something I can just barely reach, and that can often be the most interesting thing to write, the edges that exceed my grasp. Reaching for other truths is absolutely required though, as I look back to the stuff I wrote before I tried to reach, my truth ad nauseum can become boring, trite and smug. But then telling someone else's can make me feel like I'm judgmental, presumptuous and inaccurate.

Wherever you're going, I think you're headed the right way, as usual, for excellence, and with your stated goals, this one is falling into place perfectly.

Somehow the word "melodrama" describing your stuff makes me laugh. Not a word I'd choose. Maybe we have different definitions. Melodrama for me conjures up images of soap opera contrivance, where foolish and easy to solve conflicts arise and resolve in 30 minutes, like a "Three's Company" episode. I've always felt you were extraordinarily careful to assure there were no extraneous plot or emotional bull that didn't completely ring true, in tune with the rest and making an orchestrated whole, and I think you're doing that here. I like your conflicts, and I really enjoy them NOT resolving because of the starting conditions you set up. In a way the anti-resolution, the immovable object versus the unstoppable force, no happy credits rolling. I like that. But if you feel too polished, injecting a little chaos to the carefully constructed order might be fun.

And if it makes you talk, wine is a good thing! But there's me being selfish.

Please keep writing.

 

[ninefe2dg]

Hmmm...

Melodrama for me conjures up images of soap opera contrivance, where foolish and easy to solve conflicts arise and resolve in 30 minutes, like a "Three's Company" episode.

You want an experiment, VP? How 'bout making Mrs. Roper the last woman on the planet?

 

[Recidiva]

You want an experiment, VP? How 'bout making Mrs. Roper the last woman on the planet?

And a twist. She always resented Jack getting all the gay action. She's now lesbian. Maybe she was the whole time. Explains a lot.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

You want an experiment, VP? How 'bout making Mrs. Roper the last woman on the planet?

Oh, now that's just sick...

 

[ninefe2dg]

Maybe she was the whole time. Explains a lot.

There were always rumors of her and Lovey Howell. Thurston never suspected a thing...

 

[ninefe2dg]

Oh, now that's just sick...

that, and an unlikely diversion from a story about a post apocalyptic world

 

[Varian P]

And a twist. She always resented Jack getting all the gay action. She's now lesbian. Maybe she was the whole time. Explains a lot.

Poor Mrs. Roper. She's the last woman on the planet and it looks like she might finally get some, and you turn her into a lesbian.

 

[Varian P]

For those who've been anxiously awaiting the continuation, and those who are just feeling extraordinarily magnanimous, chapter four of After is up, complete with a little m/m romance and a hint or two about how we ended up in this mess.

 

[vixenblack]

oh wow I must say you have a gift with words. I wish I had that.

 

[writelove]

Varian,

I jumped right into chapter 4. I assume that you have already had many comments on the first three chapters. I will certainly lose some continuity by missing the first three chapters, so please understand and temper my comments with this in mind.

Present tense, third person -- most stories are past tense -- nothing wrong with this though.

Second sentence is not a complete sentence, but somehow it doesn't seem that bad. I've seen many writers do this sort of thing, famous writers. I would rather not do it since for me, I notice it and it stops the flow of the story.

She greets him, naked, warm. Ardent, even. There's just one moment, as her gaze catches on a split in John's upper lip and a swelling bruise under his eye, that worry clouds her eyes.

I would say:
"I'm supposed to make you go down on me." Her tone is calm without inflection, the same frank manner she always uses when ashamed.

In the frank manner he uses to confess to her whatever he's ashamed of, "I'm supposed to make you go down on me."

Tell me you want me to sounds awkward to me. I would say Tell me what you want.

"Then tell me," she says, her voice just soft and earnest. Not playing the coquette. "Tell me you want me to."

I suddenly realize that I need to go back and read the other chapters. I have missed too much. The love scene leaves me a bit flat, because I don't know these characters.

You mention that something is done to the men and I do not know what you mean.

So I need to make a larger commitment of time to this. I will need to get back to you later. I can say, that you write well. It is a joy to read your words. They flow effortlessly with a sense of control.

 

[writelove]

I read all four chapters. Reading critically always takes a bit of effort but I'm glad that I did. You have certainly reviewed many stories including my own. I hope this is worthwhile for you.

I have not read any of the other comments because I wanted to give you a fresh perspective. However this may result in duplicate observations from someone else.

I have rarely found a story that does not have something that can be mentioned that is both good and bad. This certainly follows that standard.

The story starts at year three after some world changing event. I wasn't exactly sure what that was. Maybe I didn't read closely enough. It didn't actually matter anyway.

Everything that I read was present tense except for most of the fourth chapter. So I was able to compare the voice and style of how you handled this change.

First, it was a good story. I think it does need more work before it can be published. But that is just my opinion in comparing it to other published books.

I has a good plot and you definitely have considerable skill at writing. I believe it just needs a bit more polish. I doubt I am a better writer than you so maybe I can't help much, but I can certainly point out areas that I think could make your story better.

The section written in present tense wasn't as natural as the later part written in the past tense.

Let me give a few examples of areas that I believe should be improved.

First, you have quite a few fragment sentences. I am not such a purist that I think this should never happen. The most popular writers do this frequently. I just found several instances where this seemed awkward - in my opinion.

Second, you had some run-on sentences as well. I never like run-ons, believe they always detract from a story.

Third, you tended to use the passive voice like "is sobbing" instead of "sobs." I believe that the active voice is so much more powerful.

Fourth, some of your verbs were a bit weak. This often happens after a first draft. I am not saying this made the story poor. I believe a good story like this can be made better.

Let me give some details.

The following needs correction in my opinion, is a sentence fragment and should be re-worded.

Out of place among the dense stand of cedars and maples until a wider view reveals a poorly kept old orchard.

The phrase "looks about" is weak. I would say something like - Skittish, the girl glances furtively about, then reaches....

Skittish, the girl looks about her once more, then reaches up and plucks one heavy green fruit.

I would say something like - A man locks his fingers around her arms. The first to touch her, the first to have her. He licks his lips.

The one who catches her smiles as his fingers lock around her arms. He touched her first, so he gets her first.

The sentence "The sound of thread snapping." is a fragment and distracted me from the story.

He throws her to the ground and is on her. She screams. An animal howl, terrifying and loud. She hits him hard in the face. He hits her back. A second man is there, now, pinning her arms, eager to help so his turn will come sooner. The one on top of her rips open her jacket. The sound of thread snapping. Hands yank up her shirt and bra.

"is pulling" should be "pulls" (active voice). "She is sobbing" should be "sobs." "Convulsing with sobs" is a fragment.

The one with the gun makes the runaway take his place, holding her wrists. The one on top of her is pulling down her pants, tugging at her underwear. She is sobbing. Convulsing with sobs.

Fragments - "Then a horrible dull impact sound."
I would delete "of her frame."
Instead of "He is off her", I would say "He falls off her" (weak verb).
Instead of "They are all off her" I would say "They end up lying in a circle around her like spokes of a wheel."

Then a horrible dull impact sound. And again. Something is wrong with the one on top of her. Blood runs in a stream over the stubble, down his temple, dripping in a sticky warm rivulet onto her face. Then a boot flashes into and out of her frame of vision and the man on top of her arcs backward. He is off of her. They are all off of her.

This is a run-on sentence. Also the phrase, "do up her pants" should be, "pull up her pants."

She does not take her eyes off him as her trembling hands struggle to do up her pants, then as she crosses her buttonless jacket and then her arms defensively over her chest. He watches her, then scans the men littered about them.

When you started to write in the past tense the writing was crisper and you appeared to have greater command of the language.

I might suggest simply making the entire story past tense.

You definitely have skill at writing and I am glad to have had an opportunity to read your work.

 

[ninefe2dg]

Ch 4...

...quickly read through comments, and saw a bit about sentence fragments and run-ons...I dunno, seems to me you're mixing and matching the lengths nicely that gives the story the ebbs and flows and changing rhythms it needs...certainly for the sex scenes the varying lengths matches the different rhythms of sex...I thought this paragraph was a particularly nice constrast (though two complete sentences)...

In other words, no real objections to the fragments or the run-ons. I'm not one to point out awkward wording very well, but I'd agree w/ some of those specific comments. I wouldn't mess w/ the varying lengths, though.

He listened. Nothing but the rain pelting the roof and the windows, and behind those scattered pebble notes, the continuous hiss of millions of drops falling into the dirt and grass, water touching water, doubling, tripling itself from droplets to rivulets to puddles widening, widening, creeping out and out until, in places, there was no grass or dirt on which to plant a boot, except under water.

I am now back from Planet Dumbass...nice to be back. After 4 chapters I finally get the obvious symbolism of Eva's name. Duh! Now, that said, do you think it's little trite? Now I recognize you and Eva have gone back a ways, and it's hard for you to think of her as anyone else but Eva, perhaps a more subtle version of the name? Maybe the version of Eve in a different language, perhaps from a culture where the "taboo" where sex is concerned is even more so? Just a thought...

I'm enjoying Smith's character immensely. All I know is, by the end, unless he makes Col Kurtz look like Mister Rogers, I'll be very disappointed! I want him to be not immoral, but totally amoral, so caught up in whatever "this" is that he completely loses himself...that's my vote!

Awesome BJ scene, you write good head ...I got nothing intelligent to say about that. As it should be!

(I think I just made an effective use of a sentence fragment...)

Thanks for the read!

 

[writelove]

I have a friend who has edited many of my stories in detail. We have had many discussions on run-ons. I have a weakness for it and fought for its value in certain circumstances. As time progressed, I realized that a run-on rarely has value.

A fragment can be fine at times, but should be used with care. It should not distract the reader from the story itself because of the grammar.

That is the key here. I am a reader and these sorts of things distract me, pull me back to the fact that these are words on paper rather than a world of my imagination that is evoked by the storyline.

As always, once a reader is pulled into a story, the writer has a bit more liberty.

Of course dialog has different rules for me. We talk in fragments and run-ons.

This is all my opinion based on what I like to read, what will keep me reading.

I think that attention to such matters will make a good story better, a poor story almost readable. In this case you can make a story that appears to have some appreciation from the readership much better.

Again, this is my opinion, given at some expense of effort on my part purely to help.

The below is lovely to be sure ninefe2db. Is it actually a run-on? It is long certainly, yet doesn't bother me in the least, gives me a sense of floating. I love it. Any comments from anyone else?

Nothing but the rain pelting the roof and the windows, and behind those scattered pebble notes, the continuous hiss of millions of drops falling into the dirt and grass, water touching water, doubling, tripling itself from droplets to rivulets to puddles widening, widening, creeping out and out until, in places, there was no grass or dirt on which to plant a boot, except under water.

 

[ninefe2dg]

A fragment can be fine at times, but should be used with care. It should not distract the reader from the story itself because of the grammar.

That is the key here. I am a reader and these sorts of things distract me, pull me back to the fact that these are words on paper rather than a world of my imagination that is evoked by the storyline.

Fair point. To be honest, I'm probably a better reader than a writer! So as long as I understand (or think I understand) what is meant, then I don't quibble too much over how. It's all about our threshold and yours are certainly reasonable! I have mine, too...

As always, once a reader is pulled into a story, the writer has a bit more liberty.

Of course dialog has different rules for me. We talk in fragments and run-ons.

These are both interesting comments. We cut breaks, perhaps, if pulled into the story seemlessly, but agree, re your comment below, that getting it right technically improves a story at any level.

Your point on dialogue is quite true, perhaps because even my narration in my stuff is dialogue-y, I tend to take liberties there. I'm not saying Varian P is doing that, in fact, I don't presume to compare myself to someone of her level and skill at all. But I guess to your point of being "drawn in", as VP does that to me, at least, perhaps I forgive/miss some of what others pick up on...

I think that attention to such matters will make a good story better, a poor story almost readable. In this case you can make a story that appears to have some appreciation from the readership much better.

The below is lovely to be sure ninefe2db. Is it actually a run-on? It is long certainly, yet doesn't bother me in the least, gives me a sense of floating. I love it. Any comments from anyone else?

[/QUOTE]

Nothing but the rain pelting the roof and the windows, and behind those scattered pebble notes, the continuous hiss of millions of drops falling into the dirt and grass, water touching water, doubling, tripling itself from droplets to rivulets to puddles widening, widening, creeping out and out until, in places, there was no grass or dirt on which to plant a boot, except under water.

OK, I think we agree...I don't make comments presuming a high level of technical expertise. I'm not apologizing for that, it's just the way it is...I perhaps mistook your comment for any sentence that is "long" (like the one above), is a de facto "run-on". It seems that's not necessarily the case. So if you like that sentence and in particular, the contrast in the lengths of the two sentences in the paragraphs, that's actually affirming to me. To me the varying lengths of the sentences really accentuate the varying rhythms of this story.

 

[Varian P]

oh wow I must say you have a gift with words. I wish I had that.

Thank you kindly--that's certainly nice to hear.