Any Christians out there?

[rosco rathbone]

Because we're both getting it off the same Christian-ethics schooled deists from 1700. And you didn't come out of a Hindu womb. Also, I'm much less troubled by the acid-thrower-backer chick than people more schooled in turning the other cheek and eye for an eye everyone is blind, there are some subtle things.

This stuff gets really nutty.

Yeah, my head is starting to swirl and I start wishing I'd paid more attention in class when they were explaining that the Enlightenment was a purely Christian phenomenon.

 

[JMohegan]

My head's swirling too.

 

[Valleyl81]

There seems to be a lot of argument about whether mainstream American culture is Christian, or to what extent they overlap. I think that they're definitely not the same. Just because you're part of the mainstream American culture doesn't mean that you're Christian, even if you get married in a church or go to a funeral in a church, or put pictures of Santa up at Christmas. While the U.S. is a place that was influenced, and to an undefinable extent is still influenced, by Christian beliefs, much of modern American culture is actually contrary to Christian beliefs. As someone earlier said that he didn't agree that you have to be born SOMETHING, I agree. You aren't born into a religion. That is a choice, which is generally influenced by people around you, but you're not Christian or Hindu or wiccan just because your mother was. Those are not ethnicities, they are religions, based on beliefs, not on culture. However, you are born into a culture, and most of the people in this discussion have been born into American culture and an American sub-culture.

To be a Christian, you have to actually believe in Christ. I've lived in several different countries, and I've noticed that there are aspects of Christianity that are consistent around the world. I've also noticed that if people were to follow the Bible, they would be acting contrary to at least some of pretty much every culture, too. There are other aspects that are labeled as "Christian" here in the U.S. that are actually more a product of the regional culture than any religion. The kids that would beat up Christian kids at satindesire's school aren't Christian because they grew up in the Bible belt or their parents were. Even though some bits of Christianity are infused in mainstream American culture, being a Christian is still a choice based upon beliefs.

 

[Netzach]

There seems to be a lot of argument about whether mainstream American culture is Christian, or to what extent they overlap. I think that they're definitely not the same. Just because you're part of the mainstream American culture doesn't mean that you're Christian, even if you get married in a church or go to a funeral in a church, or put pictures of Santa up at Christmas. While the U.S. is a place that was influenced, and to an undefinable extent is still influenced, by Christian beliefs, much of modern American culture is actually contrary to Christian beliefs. As someone earlier said that he didn't agree that you have to be born SOMETHING, I agree. You aren't born into a religion. That is a choice, which is generally influenced by people around you, but you're not Christian or Hindu or wiccan just because your mother was. Those are not ethnicities, they are religions, based on beliefs, not on culture. However, you are born into a culture, and most of the people in this discussion have been born into American culture and an American sub-culture.

To be a Christian, you have to actually believe in Christ. I've lived in several different countries, and I've noticed that there are aspects of Christianity that are consistent around the world. I've also noticed that if people were to follow the Bible, they would be acting contrary to at least some of pretty much every culture, too. There are other aspects that are labeled as "Christian" here in the U.S. that are actually more a product of the regional culture than any religion. The kids that would beat up Christian kids at satindesire's school aren't Christian because they grew up in the Bible belt or their parents were. Even though some bits of Christianity are infused in mainstream American culture, being a Christian is still a choice based upon beliefs.

Does it strike you that the people who don't see it this way are ethnically as well as spiritually outside of Christianity in this small sample? Whether you are going to deliberately take up the mantle of a faith you were born into, or none, or another, is choice. But the starting place is not a choice. The historical interactions between people born along a Christian lineage and those not in the USA are typically strained in a certain fashion, in a pattern, in a tradition.

 

[Recidiva]

There seems to be a lot of argument about whether mainstream American culture is Christian, or to what extent they overlap. I think that they're definitely not the same. Just because you're part of the mainstream American culture doesn't mean that you're Christian, even if you get married in a church or go to a funeral in a church, or put pictures of Santa up at Christmas. While the U.S. is a place that was influenced, and to an undefinable extent is still influenced, by Christian beliefs, much of modern American culture is actually contrary to Christian beliefs. As someone earlier said that he didn't agree that you have to be born SOMETHING, I agree. You aren't born into a religion. That is a choice, which is generally influenced by people around you, but you're not Christian or Hindu or wiccan just because your mother was. Those are not ethnicities, they are religions, based on beliefs, not on culture. However, you are born into a culture, and most of the people in this discussion have been born into American culture and an American sub-culture.

To be a Christian, you have to actually believe in Christ. I've lived in several different countries, and I've noticed that there are aspects of Christianity that are consistent around the world. I've also noticed that if people were to follow the Bible, they would be acting contrary to at least some of pretty much every culture, too. There are other aspects that are labeled as "Christian" here in the U.S. that are actually more a product of the regional culture than any religion. The kids that would beat up Christian kids at satindesire's school aren't Christian because they grew up in the Bible belt or their parents were. Even though some bits of Christianity are infused in mainstream American culture, being a Christian is still a choice based upon beliefs.

I would agree with this.

I try to respect what a religion states are their tenets. How they identify themselves. There are practices and faith that go along with most religions, and I do not practice them or believe them.

I was talking to my daughter and saying that quilting is a regional cultural part of where I grew up. My mother quilted, we spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania Amish country in Lancaster County.

I consider myself to be a quilter of philosophy. I don't have anything whole cloth, I've taken bits and pieces that I consider to be beautiful and I've made my own philosophy.

I've also taken pieces of these philosophies and made my "bad idea" patchwork.

I think that's a distinctly American art and option. Choices. If you don't have a traditional blanket to wrap yourself in, you can make one.

Although many people may disparage Americans for lacking in culture, I see the benefits of being able to choose bits of cuisine, faith, literature, art, music...from everywhere. Where others see a blank slate, I see possibilities.

 

[Netzach]

I would agree with this.

I try to respect what a religion states are their tenets. How they identify themselves. There are practices and faith that go along with most religions, and I do not practice them or believe them.

I was talking to my daughter and saying that quilting is a regional cultural part of where I grew up. My mother quilted, we spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania Amish country in Lancaster County.

I consider myself to be a quilter of philosophy. I don't have anything whole cloth, I've taken bits and pieces that I consider to be beautiful and I've made my own philosophy.

I've also taken pieces of these philosophies and made my "bad idea" patchwork.

I think that's a distinctly American art and option. Choices. If you don't have a traditional blanket to wrap yourself in, you can make one.

Although many people may disparage Americans for lacking in culture, I see the benefits of being able to choose bits of cuisine, faith, literature, art, music...from everywhere. Where others see a blank slate, I see possibilities.

This is pretty much the American faith, the belief in option, even when it's invisible.

And our ability to synthesize, quickly, voraciously, is what makes us kick ass, I think.

 

[Recidiva]

This is pretty much the American faith, the belief in option, even when it's invisible.

And our ability to synthesize, quickly, voraciously, is what makes us kick ass, I think.

If there's any real culture that's influenced me, it's this. And I've taken full, shameless advantage of it.

There's a lot to accepted American identity that I've rejected. But this is what I find that I most embrace and I most appreciate about where I was born.

I'm not certain whether opportunity would have presented itself so clearly if I hadn't had faith it was out there somewhere, waiting for me to find it. Does a belief in opportunity create opportunity due to the mindset that expects to find it? I am not a child of fate or the trodden path. I reject class and class separations, and definitely believe if not in "all men are created equal" that "all men are equal under the law."

I think there are few cultures that integrate so quickly. I've been led to believe that Filipino culture has the same integrated welcoming. It's nice to see.

 

[intothewoods]

See I don't want this to be a fight, I hope it's kind of illuminating.

Jews believe that to be a Jew you pretty much simply have to have a Jewish mother. Or want to be one, and convert.

Bingo, Jew. It's an ethnicity AND a religion, it's an etnicity, no it's a belief system. It's a reese's cup. You can be as shitty a Jew as I am, the shittiest of all shitties and I'm still a Jew.

So it mystifies us that other people don't see it this way at all.

Oh. My. God. I love YOU, and am so glad I didn't have to say it because you explain everything better than me anyway. I'm not worthy!

Sorry, people, I'm just giddy.

There is no cultural aspect of Christianity - at least, not in a way that's comparable to Judaism.

No common food rules, language, coming of age customs, or holiday traditions. Pagan trees and chocolate candy don't count.

But but but...there is a cultural aspect of Christianity, though perhaps it would be more accurate to refer it to it as something other than Christianity. I sometimes say, secular "Christian" culture. There is something cultural that binds together Christmas celebrants, even the many who don't give a crap about Jesus. And while that tree may be Pagan in origin, y'all aren't Pagan (most of you). It's all of the holiday traditions, the dinner, the whole Christmas spirit - drive to connect with your neighbor, presents, cookies, etc. I can't begin to tell you the number of self-identified atheists and agnostics I know who are militant about celebrating Christmas, and can't understand why I don't and won't celebrate it. It's all kinds of other little things too that I can't always remember, but when they come up amongst my friends, my Muslim friend and I always look at each other and go, yeah, THAT. Like all those casserole recipes. Jello salad. Baby showers!

The thing is there's so many of you - it's as specific as checking the box White. I mean, there are as many Passover meal possibilities as there are Jews, probably, but we all know we're Jews.

Convert, and you're Christian. Period. It has zero to do with your birth.

I'm not offended or pissed off about this, but I don't think people understand the extent to which religion can really, truly be absent from someone's life.

I absolutely understand. It's just that there is a mainstream culture in this country that has its roots in the Christian religion, but isn't particularly tied to it anymore.

 

[Netzach]

But but but...there is a cultural aspect of Christianity, though perhaps it would be more accurate to refer it to it as something other than Christianity. I sometimes say, secular "Christian" culture. There is something cultural that binds together Christmas celebrants, even the many who don't give a crap about Jesus. And while that tree may be Pagan in origin, y'all aren't Pagan (most of you). It's all of the holiday traditions, the dinner, the whole Christmas spirit - drive to connect with your neighbor, presents, cookies, etc. I can't begin to tell you the number of self-identified atheists and agnostics I know who are militant about celebrating Christmas, and can't understand why I don't and won't celebrate it. It's all kinds of other little things too that I can't always remember, but when they come up amongst my friends, my Muslim friend and I always look at each other and go, yeah, THAT. Like all those casserole recipes. Jello salad. Baby showers!

The thing is there's so many of you - it's as specific as checking the box White. I mean, there are as many Passover meal possibilities as there are Jews, probably, but we all know we're Jews.

Consider the articulation favor returned.

What she said.

 

[FurryFury]

I "get" Netzach and ITW a hell of a lot more than I "get" the Oklahoma chick who just put me on ignore.

I'd say that education level and general region of birth have a LOT more to do with creating someone's values and relatable personality than anything else.

Dude,

Do you get a notice or something when someone puts you on ignore???

I'm curious.

 

[intothewoods]

Does it strike you that the people who don't see it this way are ethnically as well as spiritually outside of Christianity in this small sample? Whether you are going to deliberately take up the mantle of a faith you were born into, or none, or another, is choice. But the starting place is not a choice. The historical interactions between people born along a Christian lineage and those not in the USA are typically strained in a certain fashion, in a pattern, in a tradition.

Yes! The starting place is not a choice.

And the choices are different, too, when you come from a minority. Each minority is different - I have not at all had the struggles my Muslim friend has had. I just had that whole reminder of keeping my people alive every two seconds.

 

[Recidiva]

But but but...there is a cultural aspect of Christianity, though perhaps it would be more accurate to refer it to it as something other than Christianity. I sometimes say, secular "Christian" culture. There is something cultural that binds together Christmas celebrants, even the many who don't give a crap about Jesus. And while that tree may be Pagan in origin, y'all aren't Pagan (most of you). It's all of the holiday traditions, the dinner, the whole Christmas spirit - drive to connect with your neighbor, presents, cookies, etc. I can't begin to tell you the number of self-identified atheists and agnostics I know who are militant about celebrating Christmas, and can't understand why I don't and won't celebrate it. It's all kinds of other little things too that I can't always remember, but when they come up amongst my friends, my Muslim friend and I always look at each other and go, yeah, THAT. Like all those casserole recipes. Jello salad. Baby showers!

I actually consider myself more Pagan than Christian. I celebrate Christmas, but I definitely do so in a spirit of seasonal hope more than I do faith.

I am much more pagan than I am Christian, so for me it's got a little twist of irony that's particularly mine.

I don't really care for New Year's, but that's not a contemplative holiday, that's "go out and get drunk" and I just stay home, think about what I'll do next year.

So I embrace things according to my chosen symbols - nothing wrong with presents and good will. But I don't associate it with religion. I associate with...presents...and good will.

But part of this is my willingness to morph outward custom to suit inner need. It means what I say it means.

 

[Recidiva]

Dude,

Do you get a notice or something when someone puts you on ignore???

I'm curious.

Nope. No notification. Announcing it is just that "slam of the door." Drama.

 

[FurryFury]

Nope.

And a lot of gay people would like to keep it and actively go to church and do all those things, there are churches that are perfectly fine with them as they are.

Yep, I know that's true but it puzzles me, a lot. To me being free from religion was like awaking from a hypocritical cocoon and making my own decisions, seeing the WHOLE fabric of society (in comparison) and other great things.

I know some great people who are Christians and many other faiths. What I have to say below does not apply to the ones who are loving, open minded and tolerant.

However in my life today I find myself thrown in with conservative Christians most every day. These people think they are kind and wise but often are mean, fearful and ignorant. I'm in so many closets right now I can barely stand it. Ugh.

But say anything logical to one of those kinds of Christian and you are 1.) Mistaken and crying for their help or 2.) mean and evil because they are always righteous and their hate is just. You can't win an argument with them - ever. Where I live they are in the majority and can affect your business as well as other aspects of life.

 

[Netzach]

Yep, I know that's true but it puzzles me, a lot. To me being free from religion was like awaking from a hypocritical cocoon and making my own decisions, seeing the WHOLE fabric of society (in comparison) and other great things.

I know some great people who are Christians and many other faiths. What I have to say below does not apply to the ones who are loving, open minded and tolerant.

However in my life today I find myself thrown in with conservative Christians most every day. These people think they are kind and wise but often are mean, fearful and ignorant. I'm in so many closets right now I can barely stand it. Ugh.

But say anything logical to one of those kinds of Christian and you are 1.) Mistaken and crying for their help or 2.) mean and evil because they are always righteous and their hate is just. You can't win an argument with them - ever. Where I live they are in the majority and can affect your business as well as other aspects of life.

My FIL is a Lutheran struggling like a mofo in his church right now, which really wants to be an "open and affirming" congregation without pissing the synod off so bad that they get the chop. I know he loves the people, it's about the people, but I don't know why he doesn't just start going to Spirit of the Lakes or something (queer church.)

It's just really hard, I know, to draw those boundaries, I just can't imagine. I'm one of those people with ironclad boundaries, I was done with conservative Judaism at about 8 or 9 the minute my job was clearly going to be "be supportive and make babies."

 

[WriterDom]

My brother-in-law is agnostic if not atheist and still feels the need to do a prayer at the Thanksgiving or Christmas meal. That's the only time he does it. Then he gets up and shoots a squirrel out of the tree so he can cut the tail off and get free fishing lures from Mepps. Well, they'll give you 26 cents a tail or double in trade. He shoots about 50 a year. Just for the fucking tail.

A New York redneck.

 

[Recidiva]

My brother-in-law is agnostic if not atheist and still feels the need to do a prayer at the Thanksgiving or Christmas meal. That's the only time he does it. Then he gets up and shoots a squirrel out of the tree so he can cut the tail off and get free fishing lures from Mepps. Well, they'll give you 26 cents a tail or double in trade. He shoots about 50 a year. Just for the fucking tail.

A New York redneck.

I find it interesting that if you want rabid "I KNOW THE ANSWER" you can ask a certain breed of atheist.

A more dedicated bunch of sand-castle tromping with glee is hard to find.

Faith in NOTHING is just as strong as faith in SOMETHING.

 

[00Syd]

I find it interesting that if you want rabid "I KNOW THE ANSWER" you can ask a certain breed of atheist.

A more dedicated bunch of sand-castle tromping with glee is hard to find.

Faith in NOTHING is just as strong as faith in SOMETHING.

Totally. Both think they know it all.

 

[Netzach]

My brother-in-law is agnostic if not atheist and still feels the need to do a prayer at the Thanksgiving or Christmas meal. That's the only time he does it. Then he gets up and shoots a squirrel out of the tree so he can cut the tail off and get free fishing lures from Mepps. Well, they'll give you 26 cents a tail or double in trade. He shoots about 50 a year. Just for the fucking tail.

A New York redneck.

Awesome.

I'm banging someone who's T-day turkey WAS squirrel. Who'd ever have thought?

 

[Netzach]

I find it interesting that if you want rabid "I KNOW THE ANSWER" you can ask a certain breed of atheist.

A more dedicated bunch of sand-castle tromping with glee is hard to find.

Faith in NOTHING is just as strong as faith in SOMETHING.

My husband is pretty much a Dawkins atheist, and periodically I wind up telling him STFU.

What bothers me the most are when atheists get together in church basements and community centers and whatnot and sit around and drink coffee and do humanitarian projects (well that part doesn't bother me, go them) AS ATHEISTS, and talk about how dumb people who believe in that mystical crap are. It's like atheist church. Argh.

 

[WriterDom]

We ate doves growing up. They aren't bad actually. A little gamy and dark. Have to chew carefully and feel for shot. But never squirrel. It might be ok in a stew or something. After a day or two of not eating they'd be damn good.

 

[Netzach]

We ate doves growing up. They aren't bad actually. A little gamy and dark. Have to chew carefully and feel for shot. But never squirrel. It might be ok in a stew or something. After a day or two of not eating they'd be damn good.

I am told they are fantastic.

I have no interest in obtaining my own however, though I'd sample if given to me.

 

[00Syd]

I know a women who grew up as a hillbilly, literally, in the back wood of Kentucky. Her mother would serve them SQ Chicken, which she learned later was squirrel. She moved to NYC and got heavy into the punk scene, go figure.

 

[JMohegan]

The thing is there's so many of you - it's as specific as checking the box White.

My sister and I were the ONLY kids in our neighborhood who never went anywhere to worship anybody. The only ones. Most kids went weekly, but EVERYBODY went at some point or other. I got told by some kids that I was going to hell, and by other kids that they were "chosen."

Today, I listen to talking heads blather about how a non-religious person could never, ever get elected because his or her moral grounding would be suspect. There's praying at the Inauguration and in Congress and all over the damn place. In a country with "secular" government.

This is where I'm coming from. "So many of you" is bullshit.

 

[JMohegan]

I absolutely understand. It's just that there is a mainstream culture in this country that has its roots in the Christian religion, but isn't particularly tied to it anymore.

But some people are, and it seems to me that it's more than a bit insulting to both the active believers, and to me, to lump us together with the same word.

Because if "Christian" is everybody who grew up in American culture, then "Christian" has no religious meaning at all.

And if you insist on labeling me Christian, then "agnostic" has no meaning either.

Are you guys seriously postulating that Christians in the Philippines are closer to me from a cultural perspective than I am to you?

Why not just label our culture "American"? How does that in any way negate the Judeo-Christian roots of Western society? Then we can identify as Jewish Americans and African Americans and Baptist Americans and agnostic Americans and so on.