Any Christians out there?

[Netzach]

As an agnostic who was raised sans religion of any kind, I really object to the idea that you HAVE to be SOMETHING.

If you came out of a human vagina you kind of have to be something, no?

 

[JMohegan]

There is also the cultural aspect of it. Religiously I was raised agnostic but culturally I was raised Jewish, and my family is Jewish, so that's who I identify with even though I don't believe in god.

Unless the kids at satindesire's high school were actively Atheist or something else, I'd assume that if asked what they were they would ID as Christian because that's how they were raised and that's what their family is.

Although the culture/religion gap does seem to be wider in Christianity than in Judaism.

There is no cultural aspect of Christianity - at least, not in a way that's comparable to Judaism.

No common food rules, language, coming of age customs, or holiday traditions. Pagan trees and chocolate candy don't count.

 

[JMohegan]

If you came out of a human vagina you kind of have to be something, no?

American with distant Scandinavian ancestors, yes.

 

[rosco rathbone]

As an agnostic who was raised sans religion of any kind, I really object to the idea that you HAVE to be SOMETHING.

I was raised agnostic as well, but my family background in Quakerism and Penn Dutch Lutheranism still permeated everything.

 

[00Syd]

This is no cultural aspect of Christianity - at least, not in a way that's comparable to Judaism.

No common food rules, language, coming of age customs, or holiday traditions. Pagan trees and chocolate candy don't count.

MM yeah... but I'm not thinking of the food rules and language and holiday traditions, my family didn't do any of that yet I am still very culturally Jewish. I'm thinking more along the lines of our sense of humor, what we value and what we think is a waste of time, the way we treat each other and other people, stuff like that.

I think that that's present in Christianity. Or maybe I'm thinking more of regional cultures and getting them confused?

 

[Netzach]

See I don't want this to be a fight, I hope it's kind of illuminating.

Jews believe that to be a Jew you pretty much simply have to have a Jewish mother. Or want to be one, and convert.

Bingo, Jew. It's an ethnicity AND a religion, it's an etnicity, no it's a belief system. It's a reese's cup. You can be as shitty a Jew as I am, the shittiest of all shitties and I'm still a Jew.

So it mystifies us that other people don't see it this way at all.

 

[00Syd]

I was raised agnostic as well, but my family background in Quakerism and Penn Dutch Lutheranism still permeated everything.

Right exactly, that's what I'm talking about. There are still cultural leftovers.

 

[Netzach]

I was raised agnostic as well, but my family background in Quakerism and Penn Dutch Lutheranism still permeated everything.

Quakers, now there are some interesting cats.

 

[WriterDom]

If you think Christianity is limited only those those who are practicing and those who are doing so in a good way you're missing the ethnic component that includes the very definition for a lot of non-Christians.

M is an atheist, but he was raised by Methodist/Lutherans. Sorry duder, no matter what you do, from where I sit you're Christian. Your worldview is going to come out of that even if it's entirely in opposition to it.

If you turn gay do you lose your christianhood? I mean if you are a non believing gay person.

 

[00Syd]

See I don't want this to be a fight, I hope it's kind of illuminating.

Jews believe that to be a Jew you pretty much simply have to have a Jewish mother. Or want to be one, and convert.

Bingo, Jew. It's an ethnicity AND a religion, it's an etnicity, no it's a belief system. It's a reese's cup. You can be as shitty a Jew as I am, the shittiest of all shitties and I'm still a Jew.

So it mystifies us that other people don't see it this way at all.

'Zactly.

Except for some of the more hardcore Hasidim who would look at us and scoff if we told them we were Jewish.

 

[00Syd]

Quakers, now there are some interesting cats.

My dad converted and became a Quaker during the 60s to avoid the draft. He's told me some wacky stuff.

 

[Netzach]

There is no cultural aspect of Christianity - at least, not in a way that's comparable to Judaism.

No common food rules, language, coming of age customs, or holiday traditions. Pagan trees and chocolate candy don't count.

That's how it looks like from that side of the divide - there's nothing common among us and nothing special about this worldview it's merely "standard."

From this side of the divide it looks different. Specific. That's why there's still some of us left, I think.

 

[Netzach]

'Zactly.

Except for some of the more hardcore Hasidim who would look at us and scoff if we told them we were Jewish.

Really? They usually want to Mitzvah tank me back in.

 

[JMohegan]

MM yeah... but I'm not thinking of the food rules and language and holiday traditions, my family didn't do any of that yet I am still very culturally Jewish. I'm thinking more along the lines of our sense of humor, what we value and what we think is a waste of time, the way we treat each other and other people, stuff like that.

I think that that's present in Christianity. Or maybe I'm thinking more of regional cultures and getting them confused?

I "get" Netzach and ITW a hell of a lot more than I "get" the Oklahoma chick who just put me on ignore.

I'd say that education level and general region of birth have a LOT more to do with creating someone's values and relatable personality than anything else.

 

[Netzach]

If you turn gay do you lose your christianhood? I mean if you are a non believing gay person.

Nope.

And a lot of gay people would like to keep it and actively go to church and do all those things, there are churches that are perfectly fine with them as they are.

 

[rosco rathbone]

MM yeah... but I'm not thinking of the food rules and language and holiday traditions, my family didn't do any of that yet I am still very culturally Jewish. I'm thinking more along the lines of our sense of humor, what we value and what we think is a waste of time, the way we treat each other and other people, stuff like that.

I think that that's present in Christianity. Or maybe I'm thinking more of regional cultures and getting them confused?

Exactly. My whole mindset, workethic, moral sense, all of it comes from that.

 

[00Syd]

Really? They usually want to Mitzvah tank me back in.

Haha the Mizvah tank. They are some of the friendliest people I've ever met. They are the politest converters in the world. "you want to become a Jew maybe?" They invited me in the tank for wine once. That was nice.

But intense Brighton Beach Hasidim? A girl I went to high school with came from that type of family and once when I went over one time her mother asked me if I was Jewish and when I told her I was she very distinctly scoffed. Where was my wig?

 

[rosco rathbone]

Every time I walk through Union Square, the Mitzvah boys come running after me.

I got a lot of Jewish gene from one grandfather.

 

[00Syd]

I "get" Netzach and ITW a hell of a lot more than I "get" the Oklahoma chick who just put me on ignore.

I'd say that education level and general region of birth have a LOT more to do with creating someone's values and relatable personality than anything else.

Yeah I agree, but I think that a families ethnic AND religious background have a lot to do with it, too.

 

[Netzach]

Exactly. My whole mindset, workethic, moral sense, all of it comes from that.

ta da. Totally.

Which is why my poor atheist husband confuses me deeply at times with what I consider things like misplaced loyalties.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't really know where you got that idea from, that I only see the good in it. I know there are bad people out there calling themselves Christians that do terrible things. I don't have my head stuck in the sand. I also don't think that Muslim people who kill others for 'the sake of their beliefs' are really Muslims...evil people will use the guise of anything to do evil things.

What I am objecting to...and what I have been objecting to this whole thread, is the automatic belief that so many people seem to have that all Christians should be painted with the same brush, and therefore deserve the same treatment as the BAD PEOPLE who, calling themselves Christian, did bad things.

I don't think that's sheltered, although that's just my opinion. I think that rejecting the idea that logical, thinking, good hearted people wouldn't do terrible things in the name of their religion is a good personality trait to have. If I believed that these murderers were REALLY part of the religion I shared, or the religion that other people have, then I would totally lose my faith in all of humanity and all religion. I'd have no reason to believe that what path I was on was the right path.

Okay. I just want you to consider this. This is not intended as an insult, but I'm not going to tell you anything but my impressions I've gotten so far.

You're passionate, but you're lacking wisdom or humility regarding your faith.

I HAVE lost all my faith in religion, but not humanity. Humans are just what they are and part of that is the desire to belong and be right.

I had to abandon religion in order to fulfil that "be right" part of the thing. I love it for its wisdom and its perspective and its richness of history and human nature. But I am not a person of faith.

They really are a part of your religion. The Spanish Inquisition was inspired by Christians. The witch burning was inspired by your religion. There are many things that although they are comforting to the believer, they are exclusive and condemn nonbelievers.

Do you believe you're going to heaven and someone like me is going to hell?

It's things like that...choices and certainties like that, that make Christians unwelcome, because the behavior of a nonChristian is condemned, eternally. No ifs, ands or amens.

It's an EXCLUSIVE religion. You believe or you don't. If you don't believe, you're subject to all sorts of judgments and scorn. You don't even see it in your own language, how you use your words. The offense you're handing out because you just accept that attitude as normal.

So when you defend something that you feel you must cling to or else you feel lost and deprived, I've already been through that. I couldn't be a part of something that condemns some of the greatest people in history to Hell.

So although I might admire your passion and I would hope that you held onto that, the blindness toward how Christians treat those who have rejected their faith is historically pretty nasty.

So believe what you gotta to get through the day, but I won't respect it if you're doing it just for your peace of mind, because it makes you feel better.

There are ways to see the world as it is, it's hard, it's tough and it's occasionally really nasty and ugly. But there's also real beauty and joy and life in those who don't care if they're going to Christian Hell or not.

I've had my own crises of faith and I'll never go back to believing something because it made me feel superior and comfortable and that everything was okay. In fact I've chosen to stay away from all comfortable fantasy and see life as it is, whatever it is, which is what life will decide, and not me.

So don't think that I don't sympathize, because I do. And don't think that I want to tear your faith apart, I don't.

But I would at least like you to try to see what it's like on the other side of that fence you're guarding so fiercely, if you've never stepped over it to see what's there. Or what the view is like from that side.

 

[JMohegan]

See I don't want this to be a fight, I hope it's kind of illuminating.

Jews believe that to be a Jew you pretty much simply have to have a Jewish mother. Or want to be one, and convert.

Bingo, Jew. It's an ethnicity AND a religion, it's an etnicity, no it's a belief system. It's a reese's cup. You can be as shitty a Jew as I am, the shittiest of all shitties and I'm still a Jew.

So it mystifies us that other people don't see it this way at all.

Convert, and you're Christian. Period. It has zero to do with your birth.

I'm not offended or pissed off about this, but I don't think people understand the extent to which religion can really, truly be absent from someone's life.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Convert, and you're Christian. Period. It has zero to do with your birth.

I'm not offended or pissed off about this, but I don't think people understand the extent to which religion can really, truly be absent from someone's life.

There is no separating religion from culture. We are far too close to the days when religion was an all-powerful cultural force.

 

[Netzach]

Convert, and you're Christian. Period. It has zero to do with your birth.

I'm not offended or pissed off about this, but I don't think people understand the extent to which religion can really, truly be absent from someone's life.

Religion, yes. Culture, no. I think we're actually on the same page, only in disagreement to the extent to which they overlap or don't, and the degree to which philosophies and religions overlap.

 

[00Syd]

Mmmm yeah, the first time I was told I was going to hell I was 7 years old. The 2nd time I was told I was going to hell I was 10. And the third time I was told I was going to hell I was 13 and I was pissed off and I shouted back, and now I regret that. Someone believing that I'm going to hell for the way I was born isn't going to change my fate.