BDSM and Impregnation

[sweetbea]

Originally posted by Etoile
I'm familiar with overpopulation issues (we have them here in Fairfax County too), and I'm familiar with crashes caused by deer, but I'll have to take your word for it about that specific issue of hunting deer. I guess your original post about it made it seem like deer were swarming cities in herds, so I reacted a little strongly. It's clearly not that big a problem.

And for the record, I grew up in Columbia, went to college in Westminster, and my agency's main office is in Silver Spring.

I grew up in Columbia as well, live in Anne Arundel County and still work in Columbia, and I don't ever recall seeing that many deer either. Though I do see quite a few dead ones laying around in Columbia, they are from being hit by cars, not snipers

 

[sunfox]

I'm sorry Niteshade but this also is one of those areas that make me see red, especially given my own personal experience in raising 2 children alone in poverty because their father chose to abdicate HIS responsibility. It is not the mother's seed, it is the combination of a fathers seed with a mothers egg which biologically produce a child. I am sorry if it offends some but I am so sick and tired of this attitude which says if the father chooses to go off impregnating a bevy of other women such as my grandaughter's father does (3 in 3 years to date) and not lend any financial support because it would infringe on his rights to continue a great life free of responsibility, that it is his right to do that, and the whole responsibility is then on the mother. I am tired of newspaper reports and communities exposing and accusing women who are trying their best in less than suitable conditions of being unfit mothers, and in many cases the authorities then seeking the fathers who have been absent for the life of that child to come and take the child from the mother with the laws help.

I am tired of society turning a blind eye to the responsibility fathers should carry but often don't, while condemning women who they feel don't have the right to choose. If a woman says she does not want the child she is held up as an example of a cold and uncaring bitch, if a man says the same he is given a caring pat on the shoulder and told he should not be put in that position if he didn't want it. What is it in your mind which can so easily blot out any responsibility from fathers be they molesters, gamblers, drunks, or just plain absent through choice, and yet hold women up as supposed paragons of virtue who should be able to withstand everything, cope with anything, find food and shelter without money or need to prostitute herself, and live untarnished on the pedestal society feels she should never step down from? What is it which makes you think women have a responsibility to uphold this unrealistic view you have of them as perfect human beings with ability to always cope and do the right thing no matter what the circumstances, while giving men your permission to do whatever they like and let others cope with the fallout but never, never lay the blame at their feet? And who has responsibility for a child they have not been able to give physical birth too but are no less their parent? Birth does not have a magical manual come with it. Maybe when you give birth yourself, and yes I do feel giving birth or parenting from birth has significance here not just assuming responsibility for part of a child's lifetime, you will change your outlook and see more realistically it takes two to make a child, and two who share that responsibility.

Catalina

Catalina.. I just wanted to respond to this to say that I completely agree. I was pregnant with my daughter when her father and I had separated for a divorce.. I didn't know until well after the separation. He has nothing to do with her, and wants nothing to do with her. So believe me, I do know what you mean, and it sickens me as well to see how prevalent the idea is that it is completely the mother's job to bear responsibility for the production and raising of a child.

However, I will also agree with niteshade on the fact that although it is my ex's parental responsibility to help me with our daughter that he stopped asking about at two months old... as a mother, I had no choice but to do my job and take care of her. She was part of my body, and when she was born, she was part of my life.. easy or not, loss of freedom and lack of responsibility notwithstanding.. my child needed diapers, and shots, and to be fed, and loved, and cared for. So I simply did it. I think sometimes as a woman, we cannot disregard what our maternal instincts tell us to do. Could I have walked away from her like he did? Never wanted to see her, hold her, watch her grow? Quite simply.. no. I don't think it's a 'man' thing.. I think it's an immaturity thing. It's just a pity that so many men use need for freedom, etc.. as an excuse to get out of something that has been a truly wonderful experience for me.

I'm not sure if this came out so much as I wanted it to, but I'm looking at my little curly-headed munchkin right now, and I'd give everything up again for her. Obviously... my ex husband simply didn't feel that way.. and the laws are pitifully inadequate to force him to do what he should for her.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Originally posted by Pure
With respect, these points miss the obvious legal issues. Both parents have legal responsibilities. All the "TPE" contracts, written or not, do not change this. You or OSG can give up responsibility for maintaining the back garden, but not the child.

With all respect due to you Pure, but you are missing the point. Everyone in TPE is completely aware that it misses all legal base, the contracts we use are not legal, slavery has been abolished in at least the western world (or is supposed to be by law ), consent only protects the Dominant in the most minimal way. Since TPE misses all legal aspects we do not consider the law or make it part of our life when it relates to TPE.

So although your post is of course like always elegantly written it does not contribute to the discussion beyond reminding us that when we enter in a TPE relationship we are not basing it on the law. I am sure that it surprises many that slavery does not have any legal foundation.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, thank you for this post... you said what I was fumbling around with. I was trying to get there, but doing a very poor job.

As it seems I did a very poor job of expressing myself last night, (one of the dangers of posting at 3 am ) I would also like to clarify that I agree with you on a father's responsiblity.

LOL, we are all human Niteshade, and we all have our triggers and moments when they are more easily set off than others, or cause things to come out wrong.

Unfortunately, being the lowly slave of the Masterful one does not grant me immunity. Damn, wouldn't you think some of that perfection could rub off in some of our sessions?!! So like everyone here, I have my less than shining moments....downside of being a mere mortal I guess....but far better than no communication or discussion IMHO.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Francisco said,

//Since TPE misses all legal aspects we do not consider the law or make it part of our life when it relates to TPE.//

I'm unsure what this means, but regardless of whether you 'consider' the law, or leave it out of your life, IT considers you, and applies to your life.

This attitude is reminiscent of the fellow who jumped out the window, thinking that since he no longer believed in gravity, he would not fall.

//So although your post is of course like always elegantly written it does not contribute to the discussion beyond reminding us that when we enter in a TPE relationship we are not basing it on the law.//

So long as everyone remembers that prosecutions ARE based on the law, your 'power abdication,' 'responsibility transfer,' ''surrender of personal choice," TPE, WTF, and LMAO notwithstanding.

To take the most recent case, one man may say 'kill me', and another may say 'fine' and do it. The second may say he was 'given the right,' had 'valid permission' and even show a videotape of permission being given and of statements that 'the law is not part of our lives.' But the state says the second is criminally responsible, notwithstanding his personal theories and his ideas of the force of private agreements.

It is entirely surprising that you would encourage anyone to believe their personal idea of responsibility and power (and a contract that's virtually null in the eyes of the law) affects their actual responsibilities and legal vulnerabilities.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Ok... I am gonna say some things to some different people, and I hope that it is taken in the proper way. I am going to try very hard not to rant as I sometimes do when we broach the subject of children.

First off... Francisco, I have a great deal of respect for you and Catalina, but I absolutely disagree with the statement that you made: "The question will you have a child and raise it according to your Master’s wishes is irrelevant to OSG, the power does not lie with her to agree or disagree with her Master’s wishes. The decision is her Masters and the question should be asked to her Master not OSG, the responsibility lies with him not OSG."

The very large problem that I have with this is that when speaking of children, the responsibility ABSOLUTELY lies with her. It is her womb, her seed, and very definitely her responsibility. If she sees fit to bring a child into the world, slave or not, she has a responsibility to that child. When you speak of true slavery, something not entered into willingly, but a situation where the slave is there by force, she STILL has a responsibility to her child. That responsibility is universal, and anyone who abdicates it has no business giving birth. Period.

On to other points.
Fantasy is just that; fantasy. However, I do have to agree with Limbhugger that if she truly does wish for this to happen in reality, I do believe she needs help. I would feel the same for any person who truly wanted something so certainly destined to hurt someone if it came to pass. At this point, OSG has stated that she knows her fantasy can never come to pass; whatever the reasons, I can only be glad for the unborn child.

As far as her owner raising a child in that situation, I have this to say: OSG, you speak on a regular basis of the pride with which you bear your master's marks, the pleasure you take in a split lip or black eye. Do you think the child blind??? Do you think the sight of violence having been inflicted on your person is pleasing to him/her? What right do you or he have to show that side of your life to a CHILD?

I speak as a formerly abused child myself, and as the child of a mother who liked to play rough games even with men who did not abuse us. The marks on her skin, even when given in the pursuit of mutual pleasure, seemed to me to have been meant for something else. It is only from the distance of years that I realize the difference, and it is still a disturbing image.

That child is going to grow up thinking that it is ok to be beaten, or to beat someone. And while it that may be so in some contexts, where all parties are consensual, there is a very large difference. Quite honestly, I have thought for some time that you need help. From your descriptions of your lifestyle, I firmly believe you live a life of abuse. I have never stated that in all the months I have posted here, because you are a grown woman, and it is your choice to live that life. You will continue to be abused until you either die of it, or you make the choice to see it for what is. However, you have no right to subject a child to that, in any way shape, or form.

As for what Pure said, yes, I do believe that the situation described is abuse. It is mental and emotional abuse, and no, I don't believe it should be tolerated.

Let’s go a little farther; I think the Muslim lifestyle as practiced in far too much of the world is abusive in respect to women.
Anytime the choice is removed, and someone is kept in bondage without knowing any other alternative, it is abuse. If they know a different way exists, and still chose to live that way, so be it.

I chose to live a life that sometimes sees me tied to a bed, hair being pulled, face being slapped, bites being given. That is fine for me, but it absolutely did not happen when my sisters were sleeping down the hall, and the marks were kept in places that they could not see. I make it a point to tell them they don't have to be ashamed of their kink or their fantasies, but I don't make them watch, either.

Edited to add that the other reason I disagree with Fransico's statement is that from the information given here on the board, I really don't see Catalina giving up responsiblilty for her children at any point, slave or not, 24/7 TPE or not. She chose you, and you have beliefs that match hers, but if she had chosen wrongly, and you were not the man that you are, would she stand by while you abused her children and say "Oh, well, I signed my slave contract, and if Master wants to do that, well, I gave up my right to choices." ?

niteshade....first i think the reminder should come in that this is a fantasy scenario we are talking about...a fantasy that will never come to pass, for many reasons, including the fact that neither my Master nor myself truly WANT the fantasy to come to pass (hope that answers your question Kajira C.). secondly, were we to have a child between us, the child would indeed be my Master's responsibility, and he would be the only rightful (and likely legal) parent. He would be basically raising us all. but then again i'm speaking of things that will not happen.

lastly, my Master's child has never ever seen me being abused in any way. nor have they ever seen me with an injury given me by Daddy. that is the purpose of me keeping a little make-up compact of foundation in the bathroom...for the (rare) times when a bruised area cannot be covered by clothing of some sort. but serious beatings are only done when the two of us have opportunity to be away and alone for a day or more, so the issue of having to camoflauge something very rarely even comes up.

as for your personal opinions of the way we live, and your belief that i am being mistreated, well you couldn't be more wrong, but then i also know there is absolutely nothing i could say that would cause you to think differently.

 

[sexymom]

"Niteshade this is for us a completely hypothetical question. In every model we live there are boundaries which we can and will not pass. Philosophy is based upon trying to find and explore those boundaries. It is impossible for us normal humans to know how we will behave until we have actually reached that point where we are forced to choose. Knowing Catalina if I would abuse her children I would probably end up with my balls neatly tied around my neck, at least I would hope so."

This statement is the best I've seen yet for clarifying the issue of "no limits" or tpe. I thought it meant that there were no limits on the authority or power of the Master, but that isn't the case. The concept of tpe recognizes that there are some things we won't do, and that blind obedience isn't expected, nor even wise in all cases.

My problem all along has been definition. I always looked on tpe as a strictly internet concept which has no applicability in the "real" world- as witnessed by the discussion as to legality of slavery and contracts; since we know that such avoidance of responsibility isn't a real world concept. If we look on it as it really is-- tpe or no-limits means that Master and slave have the same limits, or at least compatible limits- then it is a lot more workable.

Reality, for each of us, is what we think it is, but this concept is not easy for others to understand. I remember a debate I had several years ago with a dedicated Gorean on a similar issue. After i pointed out that some of her ideas weren't "real", she said, "I know it isn't real where you live, but i live on Gor, and it's very real here."

That sort of puts it in perspective.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

osg-i guess what i was basically looking for was for you to confirm that if you were really to have a kid, you wouldnt allow your master to abuse it. which i think you just said in your last post. so thats goodto know.

when i was a kid my stepfather sexually abused me - someof it my mother saw. she didnt do a damn thing. so yah..i have strong feelings on this issue.

 

[Etoile]

My problem all along has been definition. I always looked on tpe as a strictly internet concept which has no applicability in the "real" world- as witnessed by the discussion as to legality of slavery and contracts; since we know that such avoidance of responsibility isn't a real world concept. If we look on it as it really is-- tpe or no-limits means that Master and slave have the same limits, or at least compatible limits- then it is a lot more workable.

I know essentially nothing about internet-only relationships, especially BDSM ones, but I don't see how TPE could possibly be net-only. I've always seen it as a RL thing. If you're not involved with someone in real life, how can they be assured you're giving up total control to them? How can they control you completely when they're not there to know exactly what happens to you every day? To me, TPE involves consulting before doing something whenever possible, and I don't see how that's possible in net-only relationships...it isn't always in RL relationships either, but the idea that TPE could be internet-only doesn't mesh for me. (Again, I have little to no experience with those kinds of relationships...the only thing I can state definitively is that TPE does exist in RL.)

Also, I would say that master and slave only have the same limits in that it's the master's limits that take precedence. A TPE slave may very well have no limits of their own - their limits are whatever the top says they are.

 

[ownedsubgal]

osg-i guess what i was basically looking for was for you to confirm that if you were really to have a kid, you wouldnt allow your master to abuse it. which i think you just said in your last post. so thats goodto know.

when i was a kid my stepfather sexually abused me - someof it my mother saw. she didnt do a damn thing. so yah..i have strong feelings on this issue.

sigsauer, my Master is not the sort of Man who would ever abuse a child. that is simply not his nature. and i would never willingly give myself to a man in slavery if i even had an inkling he could harm a child. but i do not allow or not allow him to do anything. i do not have control over him...i am his property, not the other way round.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

sigsauer, my Master is not the sort of Man who would ever abuse a child. that is simply not his nature. and i would never willingly give myself to a man in slavery if i even had an inkling he could harm a child. but i do not allow or not allow him to do anything. i do not have control over him...i am his property, not the other way round.

right. good to know.

 

[Pure]

OSG said
//my Master is not the sort of Man who would ever abuse a child.//

It has been my point all along that no one on this thread should make assumptions or wild inferences to the contrary.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It is entirely surprising that you would encourage anyone to believe their personal idea of responsibility and power (and a contract that's virtually null in the eyes of the law) affects their actual responsibilities and legal vulnerabilities.

OK Pure I will try again to explain it to you. We are all consenting adults in TPE. We are all aware of the fact that there is no legal base for the activities we are involved in. Now the question is do we stop being who we are just because we are into TPE or do we ignore the law in this aspect and try to live the life we want.

My choice was quite easy I choose for TPE. We can discuss how little it is based on the law, we can discuss how what we agree upon between two individuals has no real legal base and yes we can discuss how little legal base there is for our lifestyle, but in the end it comes down to living TPE and breaking the law in certain things or follow the law and not be into TPE.

Most people who are into BDSM have had to make the same decision. We all have had to decide if what we do is worth the risk of being put in jail. Some are more fortunate than others and live in states or countries which have a friendlier more open outlook towards BDSM and some live in places where you are not even allowed to meet for play parties.

Most of us in BDSM try to be aware of the law and legal issues and make a conscious and deliberated decision for the lifestyle we want to live. This is why I say, since TPE misses all legal aspects we do not consider the law or make it part of our life when it relates to TPE.

Francisco.

 

[tainted_love]

Pure, no disrespect intended but from most of your posts I get no feeling you do anything but read, read, read, and forget to live and experience. That often provides for a blocked view and an inability to understand anything which can't be pulled from some written word to demonstrate your perceptions. TPE and most of BDSM is outside the law, so do you suggest we pack our little suitcases and live a nice sedate vanilla life?

 

[His maenad]

I have taken a few days to think about this whole thread and why I have been so upset about certain people’s reactions, even though they were not written with my first post in mind.

Last night I finally had my light bulb moment.

My Master and I live in an 24/7 TPE relationship and in many ways osg and I are very similar. I have known osg for some years and I consider her a friend.
My Master is not my Daddy but I am his property in the same sense that osg is her Daddy’s property. I also have a lot of the same fantasies, she has.

I see now that this is why I felt so upset reading certain reaction she received. The reaction I received from people not understanding why I could be so upset over a post that wasn’t even directed at me, is now understandable to me. I have to keep more in mind that not everyone can look into my head and knows where I am coming from.

I honestly believe that it is possible for a TPE couple to raise a child in a vanilla way. And I know that we are going to be wonderful parents one day.

I have spend years looking for a man with the same limits I had at that time. My limits then being anything that has to do with children, animals and scat. I did find all of this and more in Dionysus and that is why I eventually felt secure enough to submit to him without limits. (He actually has more limits than I did. I was willing to do much more for him than he would ever ask of me).

I know that he will never ask of me to have a child and raise it to become a slave. We both come from an upbringing that wasn’t exactly perfect, to say the least. And we both have a strong determination to do a lot of things very differently if that makes any sense.
Catalina, what you mentioned about some slaves sitting lower than the rest of the family and things like that, doesn't happen in Master's house unless we are alone or there are people present that are in the same lifestyle.

I do believe Limbhugger is right … I am overly sensitive. Perhaps a forum or chatrooms aren’t the best places for me to be in.

About osg I would just like to say something as well.
The issue about her ever having children and then raising them as slaves is just a non-issue really. First of all, I know for a fact that she will never become a mother. Secondly, if she ever would (which she won’t but just to answer that question here) her Master will never ask of her to raise the children as slaves. He is just not that kind of a man. Which is one of many reasons why she chose him to be her owner all those years ago.

Anyway, hopefully this clears up why I was so upset in my post.

 

[Pure]

tainted said,

//TPE and most of BDSM is outside the law, //

I don't think most BDSM as practiced by posters here is 'outside the law.'

All of these are legal if done safely and consensually: spanking, light whipping, bondage, suspension, piercing a nipple, a speck of cayenne to the anus, blind folding, wrapping, leaving in a cellar, piss play, and so on. {{And see below, also}}

{{Added: Most of the "TPE" or DS activities described commonly are likewise legal; keeping the house spotless, doing all the laundry, taking dinner off the floor at the Master's feet, wearing a collar, mending his socks, taking no major decisions without his having final say so.

In the sexual area, IF there is anything out of the ordinary, these sorts of things are entirely legal: providing bj's on command, licking his boots, being a hot fuck at any time demanded, walking aroudn with a butt plug up your ass, and fucking all his friends that he 'orders' you to.}}

Some are at least in a legal gray area: serious whipping, some knife play.

This quite contrasts with a possible abuse scenario, as described by some (not OSG): e.g., the Master, in a couple, with the 'slave's' (spouse's) standing aside, beating a kid.

//so do you suggest we pack our little suitcases and live a nice sedate vanilla life?//

You miss the obvious point that a household where the husband is undisputed master and king and his wife is property, along with the kids, may in fact BE entirely vanilla in every other way, and is found in a number of 'traditional' countries, as well as parts of the Bible Belt in the USA. This is illustrated in the traditional Christian marriage vow, for the woman: "Love, honor, and obey."

I don't tell anyone what to do with their lives if they leave my wallet, my wife, and my kids alone, and do whatever they please with any orifices (or simply pray to the Lord Jesus) in their bedrooms; as another site says, I'm *suggesting* that folks be aware of 'how to stay out of handcuffs.'

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I would like to thank a few different people in this thread: OSG and catalina. Because I am an active switch, I have never even heard of the concept of TPE.

It pains me (as I read back through this thread) to see how far this particular thread has went before coming (basically) back on target. The original purpose of this thread was about impregnation fantasies, yes? It really had nothing to do with who would not make good parents and why.

Being able to give up complete control to one's partner is (i am sure) a beautiful, fulfilling thing. Who am I to tell adults how to live their lives? The main gist of my first post (and my subsequent postings) was the idea of raising a child into slavery..nothing more, nothing less.

I had decided to avoid this subject, yet like a train wreck, I had to keep coming back. Nothing anyone has said has changed my mind on the original premise of my first post. I still believe that raising a child into slavery is wrong. HOWEVER, I know that raising children in a house where BDSM is not only an active part, but an integral part of one's lifestyle, can be done. I have done so. And hope to, one day, do so again.

So I thank OSG and Catalina for explaining their particular life choices. Though I can not understand it..it does make it easier for me to relate to.

As for the initial furor, well one learns by actively participating. (or in my case quietly reading the thread). There are many new points as to the why's and wherefore's that I knew nothing about beforehand.

Thank you ladies

Pet

 

[ownedsubgal]

I have taken a few days to think about this whole thread and why I have been so upset about certain people’s reactions, even though they were not written with my first post in mind.

Last night I finally had my light bulb moment.

My Master and I live in an 24/7 TPE relationship and in many ways osg and I are very similar. I have known osg for some years and I consider her a friend.
My Master is not my Daddy but I am his property in the same sense that osg is her Daddy’s property. I also have a lot of the same fantasies, she has.

I see now that this is why I felt so upset reading certain reaction she received. The reaction I received from people not understanding why I could be so upset over a post that wasn’t even directed at me, is now understandable to me. I have to keep more in mind that not everyone can look into my head and knows where I am coming from.

I honestly believe that it is possible for a TPE couple to raise a child in a vanilla way. And I know that we are going to be wonderful parents one day.

I have spend years looking for a man with the same limits I had at that time. My limits then being anything that has to do with children, animals and scat. I did find all of this and more in Dionysus and that is why I eventually felt secure enough to submit to him without limits. (He actually has more limits than I did. I was willing to do much more for him than he would ever ask of me).

I know that he will never ask of me to have a child and raise it to become a slave. We both come from an upbringing that wasn’t exactly perfect, to say the least. And we both have a strong determination to do a lot of things very differently if that makes any sense.
Catalina, what you mentioned about some slaves sitting lower than the rest of the family and things like that, doesn't happen in Master's house unless we are alone or there are people present that are in the same lifestyle.

I do believe Limbhugger is right … I am overly sensitive. Perhaps a forum or chatrooms aren’t the best places for me to be in.

About osg I would just like to say something as well.
The issue about her ever having children and then raising them as slaves is just a non-issue really. First of all, I know for a fact that she will never become a mother. Secondly, if she ever would (which she won’t but just to answer that question here) her Master will never ask of her to raise the children as slaves. He is just not that kind of a man. Which is one of many reasons why she chose him to be her owner all those years ago.

Anyway, hopefully this clears up why I was so upset in my post.

sending you (((((((((hugs)))))))))

i'm so sorry this thread was able to upset you the way it did. i think both of us have a problem with oversensitivity...if it weren't for Daddy's restrictions as to what and how i can post, who knows the kinds of things that i would let out. certain implications, and outright accusations, made in this thread saddened me and made me burn with anger...and as you know, it is very rare i feel anger. there is no reason for the opinions or comments of others to have that sort of effect on either of us. it's something i still must work on.

Pure, i wanted to thank you for raising the question as to why one would assume a child raised within the lifestyle would be abused. it most certainly does not have to be that way. although i must state that my fantasy goes to extremes where were it reality, child abuse of some sort (primarily psychological) would be inevitable. but those are not the things one dwells on when one is fantasizing. as for bdsm and the law, or D/s and the law, i pretty much agree with Francisco in that my Master and i are not ruled by the law. it's true that many within the lifestyle do nothing that falls outside the letter of the law, however in our particular case that cannot be said. but my Master is a Man of values and ethics, and the way we live is true to those beliefs.

right now i am wondering if perhaps it's not too late to salvage this thread and bring it back to it's original, fun, erotic topic...impregnation fantasies....anyone?

(btw, thank you, friend )

 

[pierced_boy]

Yes It does feature in some of our fantasies

I wrote something frivolous on the subject here http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=42716

Harry

 

[Limbhugger]

Pure I try look for it but do you ever take a stand? I mean seriously. You qoute us and then use theories, ideas, and five dollar words but I can never find you coming down on a side of things. Unsettling.

Francisco As always I have the deepest respect for what you've said here. But I must disagree with your assessment that because osg has "chosen" to live as a slave none of these matters are hers but rather her "master's". I can not and will not accept that a person of sound mental health would make a commitment to anyone that would surrender the creation of life and subsequent unquestioned raising of said life. That isn't a part of the D/s lifestyle, that is selfish at best and mental illness at worst.

All this talk is mindnumbing for the context.

This is LIFE we're talking about! FUCK THE BDSM BULLSHIT. We are discussing the creation and care of LIFE for crying out loud. That tiny baby in the cradle of your arms looking up to you as their sole protector and teacher of all things.

osg said in a previous post: "as far as how i address my Master around his child...that is the same also...i call him Daddy. that's who and what he is, to us both. and it's never caused any confusion for his child. i always take my meals in a place physically below my Master...whether that's below his feet, or in a lower/smaller chair. usually, i'm sitting on the floor. it's a message to his child that i'm more on the child's level, than Daddy's." https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177586&highlight=children+and+BDSM

This shit isn't fucking healthy. I don't give a damn about your D/s beliefs. Those are yours to make for yourselves. This is being taught and that shit is wrong. OSG likes to hide behind the idea of "very traditional" but that is crap. There isn't the most stringent Puritan woman that ever ate lower than her husband.

I return to OSG's original words: "as children are not in the plans for us, these will all have to remain fantasy. they are probably one of the few fantasies between us that cannot/will not be realized. but they sure are lovely to think about"

The phrase, "will have to remain" gives me pause that this could easily transition from fantasy (as osg now seems bent on making it) to reality. And lovely to think about? It's lovely to think about creating a child to serve her incestual father? And we're not supposed to stand in judgment of that?

 

[sigsauerprinces]

Pure I try look for it but do you ever take a stand? I mean seriously. You qoute us and then use theories, ideas, and five dollar words but I can never find you coming down on a side of things. Unsettling.

Francisco As always I have the deepest respect for what you've said here. But I must disagree with your assessment that because osg has "chosen" to live as a slave none of these matters are hers but rather her "master's". I can not and will not accept that a person of sound mental health would make a commitment to anyone that would surrender the creation of life and subsequent unquestioned raising of said life. That isn't a part of the D/s lifestyle, that is selfish at best and mental illness at worst.

All this talk is mindnumbing for the context.

This is LIFE we're talking about! FUCK THE BDSM BULLSHIT. We are discussing the creation and care of LIFE for crying out loud. That tiny baby in the cradle of your arms looking up to you as their sole protector and teacher of all things.

osg said in a previous post: "as far as how i address my Master around his child...that is the same also...i call him Daddy. that's who and what he is, to us both. and it's never caused any confusion for his child. i always take my meals in a place physically below my Master...whether that's below his feet, or in a lower/smaller chair. usually, i'm sitting on the floor. it's a message to his child that i'm more on the child's level, than Daddy's." https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177586&highlight=children+and+BDSM

This shit isn't fucking healthy. I don't give a damn about your D/s beliefs. Those are yours to make for yourselves. This is being taught and that shit is wrong. OSG likes to hide behind the idea of "very traditional" but that is crap. There isn't the most stringent Puritan woman that ever ate lower than her husband.

I return to OSG's original words: "as children are not in the plans for us, these will all have to remain fantasy. they are probably one of the few fantasies between us that cannot/will not be realized. but they sure are lovely to think about"

The phrase, "will have to remain" gives me pause that this could easily transition from fantasy (as osg now seems bent on making it) to reality. And lovely to think about? It's lovely to think about creating a child to serve her incestual father? And we're not supposed to stand in judgment of that?

thank you. its nice to see that at least one other person in here gets why that shit pissed me off. sometimes i feel like no matter what is said in these forums, we're supposed to say "oh thats nice, thats perfectly healthy and ok" even if its really, obviously NOT.

 

[niteshade]

thank you. its nice to see that at least one other person in here gets why that shit pissed me off. sometimes i feel like no matter what is said in these forums, we're supposed to say "oh thats nice, thats perfectly healthy and ok" even if its really, obviously NOT.

You guys weren't the only ones kicking up a fuss, but I have decided that I am making myself needlessly upset, and I will do my best to stay away from this thread. Or maybe I should just ask Catalina or MissT to delete my posts as soon as I make them, in the interests of keeping the peace.

 

[Quint]

I eat on the floor beside T most days. It makes me happy. I also wait to eat until he has eaten and wait to drink until he has drunk. I do this regardless of the company we are in; we have several friends who are aware of our relationship but none who are in a similar one.

You're exactly right, limbhugger: it is about life. I live mine the way that makes me feel the most fulfilled.

 

[catalina_francisco]

thank you. its nice to see that at least one other person in here gets why that shit pissed me off. sometimes i feel like no matter what is said in these forums, we're supposed to say "oh thats nice, thats perfectly healthy and ok" even if its really, obviously NOT.

Actually I repeatedly advocate for people to discuss and avoid the agreement trap, and that is why you are finding I agree with you and others on some posts and thoughts which I feel similar about, and others I don't. It is not a personal thing, but it is necessary in a forum if you want healthy and honest discussions to take place. Unfortunately for some if people don't find everyone agrees with them, they avoid that thread or leave the board altogether....and similarly, I know people who have reacted in the same way because there have been discussions where everyone does the virtual pat on the back scene and agree, agree, agree...so once again it is evidence of different strokes for different folks. How many of us in reality agree with everything a friend or family member says or thinks?

I try and take the view that no matter what I do, think, say, or believe I can never please all the people all the time, so the best option for me is to be honest and open and encourage discussion which gives a variety of views and perspectives just as we see in everyday life. I realise also there will always be the occasional poster who will try and antagonise everyone or particular people for their own amusement, or force their ways onto everyone else, but in the longrun their efforts usually find them being ignored or challenged, rarely taken seriously. It is not always easy but I encourage other posters to continue to discuss and not look for 100% agreement as that is a false reality and becomes not only limiting to discussion, but misleading in what people are thinking behind the scenes. Disagreement does not have to be personal, nor does it have to be done in an angry manner, but the reality is we are all different.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Limbhugger's outburst,



Pure I try look for it but do you ever take a stand? I mean seriously. You qoute us and then use theories, ideas, and five dollar words but I can never find you coming down on a side of things. Unsettling.

Francisco As always I have the deepest respect for what you've said here. But I must disagree with your assessment that because osg has "chosen" to live as a slave none of these matters are hers but rather her "master's". I can not and will not accept that a person of sound mental health would make a commitment to anyone that would surrender the creation of life and subsequent unquestioned raising of said life. That isn't a part of the D/s lifestyle, that is selfish at best and mental illness at worst.

All this talk is mindnumbing for the context.

This is LIFE we're talking about! FUCK THE BDSM BULLSHIT. We are discussing the creation and care of LIFE for crying out loud. That tiny baby in the cradle of your arms looking up to you as their sole protector and teacher of all things.

osg said in a previous post: "as far as how i address my Master around his child...that is the same also...i call him Daddy. that's who and what he is, to us both. and it's never caused any confusion for his child. i always take my meals in a place physically below my Master...whether that's below his feet, or in a lower/smaller chair. usually, i'm sitting on the floor. it's a message to his child that i'm more on the child's level, than Daddy's." https://forum.literotica.com/...ildren+and+BDSM

This shit isn't fucking healthy. I don't give a damn about your D/s beliefs. Those are yours to make for yourselves. This is being taught and that shit is wrong. OSG likes to hide behind the idea of "very traditional" but that is crap. There isn't the most stringent Puritan woman that ever ate lower than her husband.

I return to OSG's original words: "as children are not in the plans for us, these will all have to remain fantasy. they are probably one of the few fantasies between us that cannot/will not be realized. but they sure are lovely to think about"

----------

I see we're on the same side in one small but important way; we agree that the parents who pursue bdsm are not 'outside the law',and that the understandings that create what some call 'our own world of TPE' are subject to the law and likely null in its eyes.

As to taking a stand, I thought I was pretty clear, but I remind you that neither I or you are DAs or grand juries; judgments are not required, nor in many cases desirable. This is a discussion forum. Even if someone says (heaven forbid) "I'm going to shoot my dog.", it's not necessary to go beyond saying, "You sound depressed. I've felt that sometimes." If indeed anything is said. In any event, it's necessarily a good thing proceed any further, beyond saying, "that sounds like a cruel thing to do."

There's not necessarily any point to saying, "You're a fucking sadist, and the law prescribes that you be sentenced to a minimum of 1 year in jail, and I hope you rot there."

For you I will avoid 'five dollar words' in what follows, and stay in one syllables as far as I can.

On the woman sitting lower than the man: You say, "This shit isn't fucking healthy" and that it did not apply to Puritan women.
In any case, a number of traditional societies the wives/women eat entirely separately, often after, the men/husbands.

You give no reason why it's not healthy, even though NOW would clearly not approve. Do you think a husband headed family is ever healthy? Is 'equal authority' written in the stars that only you can read.?

Equality of genders is NOT in the Bill of Rights, my friend. Nor anything close to it, like a right to vote or get a divorce or keep child custody after a divorce. Odd that Washington and Jefferson, not to speak of Mrs. Washington and Mrs Jefferson, did not agree with you, nor did a majority of *US* citizens till the early 20th century.

I say 'lower household status' may be moral and legal, and not necessarily 'unhealthy.' This holds especially when chosen by an adult woman. Is that clear enough?

It's not clear what 'unhealthy' is supposed to mean, but (assuming it were true) surely you'd agree you can't dictate to others on that basis, e.g., regarding their cigarette smoking or love of motorcycling, so long as others aren't harmed.

You refer to 'sound mental health.' Well, I have the _DSM IV _ manual of the American Psychiatric Association. It lists hundreds of psychological disorders. I don't see "accepting or taking lower household status" among the disorders or the symptoms. What disorder or illness do you think it is?

Now as to the child, who does not exist and whose existence is not planned. I suppose you hold s/he would be abused? Again, consult child welfare laws, would lower household status (along with the mom's) constitute abuse? Unquestioning obedience is demanded in many households. Children did not always "vote" as in enlightened yuppie households.

You have no evidence that anything abusive would happen, e.g., rape, incest (which you mention, see below at **), assault, neglect, etc. You have no evidence that--were there to be child-- that OSG's 'master' would abuse it and that OSG would go along with it. (And there is some evidence against that, by a poster who knows this 'master.')

But the larger point stated by OSG many times is that this thread is about a fantasy. You yourself have fantasies of subservience and maybe even torture, don't you? Are these 'fucking healthy'?

Given that no child is *actually* involved, this seems to be a case of "I have healthy submissive tendencies in moderation, which I explore in a mature way, but you have unhealthy and mentally unsound tendencies, which are extreme, and you probably should go to jail if you act on any of them." In simple terms, "My kink is fine; yours is sick."

Get a grip, man.

J.

--------
** Limb said
The phrase, "will have to remain" gives me pause that this could easily transition from fantasy (as osg now seems bent on making it) to reality. And lovely to think about? It's lovely to think about creating a child to serve her incestual father? And we're not supposed to stand in judgment of that?