BDSM, Hunting, and Societal Perspectives

[lark sparrow]

lol I think the wide brush strokes between "sophisticated city folks" and "back woods po' folk and farmers" have been invited... but I don't think they are entirely accurate nor do they do they paint an entirely realistic and universal picture. I live in a large city and have for several years, but I was born in the Midwest. I don't know anyone on daily basis right now who hunts, but I have plenty of ties with people who do.

I have given the death sentence through a vet in killing a family pet because of suffering that couldn't be corrected... I wouldn't shoot an entirely healthy and vibrant deer for the fun, challenge, etc. If you want to, that's your right... but don't tell me you are doing it for the animal's benefit alone. Or do, but I'm not inclined to believe this is the only reason.

Yes, there are a lot of larger issues to consider... but I'm not buying that most hunters go out for strictly impersonal, greater good reasons... I think there is a thrill to a kill... wrap it however you like. I'm still not saying you are a psycho to be shunned for enjoying killing an animal, but I simply don't believe the only motivation are the larger issues that people like to parade - there are personal desires as well.

 

[A Desert Rose]

lol I think the wide brush strokes between "sophisticated city folks" and "back woods po' folk and farmers" have been invited... but I don't think they are entirely accurate nor do they do they paint an entirely realistic and universal picture. I live in a large city and have for several years, but I was born in the Midwest. I don't know anyone on daily basis right now who hunts, but I have plenty of ties with people who do.

I have given the death sentence through a vet in killing a family pet because of suffering that couldn't be corrected... I wouldn't shoot an entirely healthy and vibrant deer for the fun, challenge, etc. If you want to, that's your right... but don't tell me you are doing it for the animal's benefit alone. Or do, but I'm not inclined to believe this is the only reason.

Yes, there are a lot of larger issues to consider... but I'm not buying that most hunters go out for strictly impersonal, greater good reasons... I think there is a thrill to a kill... wrap it however you like. I'm still not saying you are a psycho to be shunned for enjoying killing an animal, but I simply don't believe the only motivation are the larger issues that people like to parade - there are personal desires as well.

No, you are right Lark, most hunters do not go out to hunt with a mindset that what they do is for "greater good reasons." And that is why they are called SPORTSMEN.

I have never shot an animal or even fired a gun, but I have many friends who are hunters and have enjoyed the results of their persuits. I personally have no problem with hunting or hunters.

 

[lark sparrow]

Power

I've shot some high-power handguns before at a target range. lol here in the city actually - one of those, let's do something we've never done before explorations at someone else's suggestion.

Frankly, it made me uncomfortable - the guns are extremely powerful... I'm thinking JHC, here I am in room full of strangers off the street with loaded guns, and we have three of them we are passing around completely untrained (but not drunk lol) - this is nuts... and way too loud. I was jumping at each shot other than my own the first 15 minutes, as well as asking my partners in crime to be careful in handling that thing every two minutes.

So the line between those "drunken rural folks in flannel" and the "sophisticated city folks" is not as thick as one might imagine... no animals were killed in the process (just a few holey paper outline human forms for trophy), but it's still a "sporting" event, with or without skill, training and discipline. It didn't do much for me, but I can understand the draw to the power, and the need for responsibility, as well as the skill that could be developed.

Perhaps there is too much internal struggle to say, yes, I enjoy killing animals sometimes, along with the explanation of the larger issues and justifications for that pleasure. Perhaps the cultural issues really come into play, as far as how someone perceives the whole issue as well - as some have suggested.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Has anyone heard of "The Dark Hunt"? I never would have imagined such things existed, but I met a crazy chick from Arkansas that is actually trying to get me involved in the Dark Hunting scene. They basically take a woman to an isolated rural area, give her a head start, and then track her down. Penalty of being caught is (play) rape/torture. This girl is a pretty skilled outdoorsperson and is totally into the prey role.

rr

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Has anyone heard of "The Dark Hunt"? I never would have imagined such things existed, but I met a crazy chick from Arkansas that is actually trying to get me involved in the Dark Hunting scene. They basically take a woman to an isolated rural area, give her a head start, and then track her down. Penalty of being caught is (play) rape/torture. This girl is a pretty skilled outdoorsperson and is totally into the prey role.

rr

I've heard of it, and remember hearing something about something similar occuring out Las Vegas way in the regular news a while back. If I run across the info, i'll pass it on.

 

[sunfox]

lol I think the wide brush strokes between "sophisticated city folks" and "back woods po' folk and farmers" have been invited... but I don't think they are entirely accurate nor do they do they paint an entirely realistic and universal picture. I live in a large city and have for several years, but I was born in the Midwest.

[hijack]

Alright, now I feel inclined to start a new thread for 'Disgruntled Midwesterners who hate the fact that everyone thinks all Midwesterners grew up in the midst of a field of either corn or cows'. We do have large cities heah, y'all realize. *saucy grin*

[/hijack]

Carry on.

 

[WriterDom]

WD://A healthy deer herd on suitable habitat can be reduced by as much as 40 percent with no ill effect on populations; hunters rarely take more than 15 percent. If not harvested, a deer herd can double in size in only two years, quickly deplete available food supplies and face certain starvation. Quail have an annual mortality rate of 75 to 85 percent, whether they are hunted or not. //

The idea that the hunter is 'serving nature's purposes' and therefore has a kind of moral (and maybe legal) legitimacy is dicey.

.

Well hell that works well if you only eat what grows out of the ground. I think carrots scream but we can't hear them. If you eat pork or beef or chicken or fish, they did die to give you that honor.

Their life sucked compared to the wild hunted one.

 

[Netzach]

[hijack]

Alright, now I feel inclined to start a new thread for 'Disgruntled Midwesterners who hate the fact that everyone thinks all Midwesterners grew up in the midst of a field of either corn or cows'. We do have large cities heah, y'all realize. *saucy grin*

[/hijack]

Carry on.

Never said everyone.

Just a lot of people.

Which makes sense, there's a lot of agriculture out here. It even employs some of us urban desk potatoes in the form of commodities trading and food service.

 

[sunfox]

Never said everyone.

Just a lot of people.

Which makes sense, there's a lot of agriculture out here. It even employs some of us urban desk potatoes in the form of commodities trading and food service.

I was poking fun at lark sparrow, not you, Netzach But yes, there is a lot of agriculture out here... we're proud of that, but damn, I get tired of reminding people that just because I'm from Illinois, doesn't mean I'm from Chicago. There's a whole state underneath it, after all.

 

[lark sparrow]

[hijack]

Alright, now I feel inclined to start a new thread for 'Disgruntled Midwesterners who hate the fact that everyone thinks all Midwesterners grew up in the midst of a field of either corn or cows'. We do have large cities heah, y'all realize. *saucy grin*

[/hijack]

Carry on.

lol hmmm... never lived in a cornfield or milked a cow, but I did get the opportunity to shear a sheep in New Zealand once! Born in Minneapolis, MN then onto Maryland, then Wisconsin and finally Ca. and the first stop in California was a lot more rural than my Midwest stops, but have lived in San Francisco for nearly a decade. All you have to do is drive down the coast or into the valley a bit to run into the offspring of 'Deliverance' here. (Tongue in cheek, but go ahead and get disgruntled as I like the spirit it adds ) Does it count that my grandmother grew up on a Minnesota farm as a German immigrant and the oldest of 16 children and my grandfather makes no bones about the simple enjoyment in killing a deer, pheasant or fish for sheer sport and good eating any chance he gets? Yehaaaaaa! Squeal like a piggy, baby!

 

[FungiUg]

As a VERY public and active pagan (revilved group!), an active political liberal (reviled group!), an publically active Dominant (revilved group!), and an opnely polyamorous proponent of same (ditto), *I* would certainly be grateful for some attempts at understanding from others, and I think lots of other people would be a lot happier to

Your forgot to mention being reviled by the pedants who hate you for spelling "too" with only one o.

I'm always a proponent of open mindedness. I think the key to open mindedness in a society is education. Our education shapes our thoughts and our morality as a society. So what are our schools teaching?

It's such a huge issue. And there are always arguments about where to draw lines. Humans are always saying "this is okay, this is not." And then we seem to think we should convince others of that too.

In my experience, no matter who or what you are, somebody hates you. Life isn't fair, and part of being an adult is recognising that, and working with what life as reality, rather than fantasyland.

Of course, change what you can, make it fairer, more open minded, whatever. But even after you have done all of that, someone will still hate you. And the silly thing is, they will hate you because they LIKED their sheltered world view, and they will hate you because you have proved them wrong. Just look at Galileo - well, if he weren't dead, anyway.

Humans, eh?

 

[FungiUg]

Alright, now I feel inclined to start a new thread for 'Disgruntled Midwesterners who hate the fact that everyone thinks all Midwesterners grew up in the midst of a field of either corn or cows'. We do have large cities heah, y'all realize.

What's a mid-westerner? You all sound like Americans to me!

 

[lark sparrow]

giggles, poor reviled, James. I am sending a hug of understanding and some applause for fighting the good fight. I don't have a problem with any of those things listed, but I too have to ignore spelling mistakes... and I am still working on the exhalted admiration simply for shooting an animal but there is a small crack in this previously impenetrable and narrowly closed mind, and I owe that to our host, James of the Reviled, and to Fungi Ug, the man from another land! Thank you, gentlemen, thank you!

 

[FungiUg]

They had an interesting item on the news here the other day, where a bunch of "Robin Hood wannabes" were out shooting fish with bow and arrow as part of an ecological clean up. The fish were an introduced species of cod that were fouling up that particular waterway, and they had wanted an ecologically friendly way of cleaning up the mess. So out troop the elves...

Of course, as part of our ecological control, we have people out hunting deer, possums, rabbits, and even wild horses. So hunting in New Zealand is a respected vocation. But then, we like sheep...

 

[sunfox]

Yehaaaaaa! Squeal like a piggy, baby!

Is it just me, or is there something sort of weirdly kinky about lark saying that?

 

[lark sparrow]

Is it just me, or is there something sort of weirdly kinky about lark saying that?

lol no, I found it oddly arousing.

 

[Crimsongator]

forget it

The vanilla crowd is not going to understand our lifesyle. I do not have a problem with hunting (killing of animals) if it is for survial - but to see someone kill anything for sport just drives me up the proverbal wall. If you or anyone else for that matter needs food - then the survial of the fittist (spelling?) comes first. But to kill anything just because you can - I do not agree with. I know we (humans) have takrn nature into our own hands by killing of the predators - BUT we should not kill for the sake of killing... stepping down off of my soapbox.

 

[sunfox]

What's a mid-westerner? You all sound like Americans to me!

Midwesterners are from the middle of the US, Fungi People call us flatlanders too, because we're in the plains regions, and we have a notoriously flat accent. A british friend of mine says it sounds to him like I'm chewing over every word I say. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

 

[Limbhugger]

Okay, I did my best to avoid this thread. Failed. Then I did my best to read through the whole thread. Failed again. So forgive any restatements or misunderstandings. While I think I get how James is trying to tie this into D/s it seems it is really more about truth, choices, and perceptions.

I own lots of guns. I love 'em. Some are beautiful in their design, others admirable in their function. I just like guns period. As some may drool over a classic violin or vintage wine, I like guns. No more or less harmless than the others. Nor are they more or less admirable. I have guns for hunting, defense, and plinking. But guns in and of themselves wasn't the topic. I was just giving a preface I suppose.

Hunting. Boy could this get me rolling. I hunt. I hunt and I shall not apologize or make excuses for it. I hunt and I am open to debate and criticism. I hunt and I respect other's right not to. I hunt and I wish to be judged on fact not emotion or incorrect information. I hunt and it has nothing to do with BDSM.

Let us first dispell the myth of a middle-aged beer-bellied white guy tearing up a country road and waylaying helpless animals with is far superior and technologically advance weaponry. Middle-aged beer-bellied white guys tearing up country roads end up shooting cattle crossing signs, not animals. And hunters despise them.

Whether I choose to hunt turkey, deer, elk, rabbits, coyote, bear, cougar, or little ole ducks, I am at a disadvantage. Oh but you have your scents and calls and cami and guns and binos, blah, blah, blah. Why exactly do you think there is even a market for such products? Because the animals that we hunt are frickin' smart and hard to get. And if all that paraphenilia worked so well, there would be only one company making it and everyone would own it.

These are creatures that spend their every waking minute in the "wild". When you sit inside a heated home in -20 weather, they endure it day after night after day. They are constantly aware and probing their surroundings to either danger or prey. They are programmed to survive. They know every nook and cranny of the land for miles. They can wind you hundreds of yards away. Detect the subtlest movement. Move like a seasoned contortionist in a split second. Disappear into the landscape. On public lands, animals are the so adept at evading hunters there is a less than 30% harvest rate. Lets give the animals their due respect. So, going into the game, I am at disadvantage to start with. Regardless of technology.

Hunting ethics: Much to the animimal rights activists (ARA) chagrin, conservation began with hunters. In fact Teddy Roosevelt, an avid hunter, began the national parks and animal sanctuary programs. Population decimation was never a concern of the populace outside of the hunting community. Oh but what about the destruction of wolves and other species some may ask. True enough. But that is both overly popularized and a product borne of misunderstanding. After the turn of the 19th century, we began to realize a need for change and developed prgrams that have evloved and changed over the years.

Fact. Hunters through their license fees and volunteerism will do more in a year for the preservation of animals than all of the ARA groups combined.

No one can say they have no impact on animals. A vegan who swears to eat only organically grown vegies has done more to harm wildlife than any hunter. Thousands of birds, rodents and larger mammals are killed and displaced to raise those "healthy" crops. And I've yet to meet the vegan that didn't drive a car and a live in a home. I digress.

On to...The ages old stab that non-hunters thrust at hunters; "You can't deny you do it for the rush." First let me say that every single ethical hunter in the world hates an unethical hunter. We despise an unethical hunter more than we dislike someone trying to take away our rights to hunt. A scrub bastard that would disrespect an animal he pursues by taking a bad shot and not caring is a scumbag.

So on to the "rush" question. Hell yes there is a rush. But not in the killing in the experience. I have pitted myself against a creature that in every applicable respect is my superior. He has sent me home teased and empty handed more times than I can count. I have studied him, tracked him, worked him, tested him and now the moment of truth.

Some would say, so you've made the journey, forget the destination. But that doesn't hold true here. The rush is in the journey, the reason is in the destination. Man has over-encroached the wilderness. Hunting is a clean, ethical, humane way to manage wildlife populations. Hunting ensures not only the health of the species, it ensures their necessary balance.

There is honesty in hunting. I pit myself against true nature and usually lose...LOL.

But when you put your own meat on the table you are proud and thankful. I remember as a little boy watching my dad cook up birds that he and I had shot. A big mess of partridge, pheasant, and quail. In that bundle of succulent goodness were birds I had brought down. And I remember my family eating and enjoying and I remember being proud.

I could debate the ethics of hunting forever. Hunting has ZERO to do with my D/s life. Nothing, nadda, zippo. So I reckon my reply really belongs in the Cafe.

I respect your right not to hunt, I only ask you respect my right to hunt.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

LH, I believe James' reasoning behind posting on hunting was to show people how close minded they are in reality, in order to attempt to have people think before condemning. He chose to demonstrate it through the use of hunting, as BDSM (at least here) is a topic that people typicaly profess to be open minded about.

It is through this analogy and the resultant moment of discovery regarding a reader's "open mindedness" that he wishes to demonstrate to people that there are other views; that these views are just as valid as their own, and that people should not condem another for having a different set of values.

my take on the reasoning behind the thread, and it's relevance to BDSM.

 

[scooterbum]

huntin...

Well, what you didn't quote me on is that I think it's fine to fantasize about hunting and killing animals. There really is just no need to to hunt and kill animals, and then eat them in this country. When there are overpopulation problems (I recognize that they occur) the best way to handle it is euthenasia like we would with stray dogs and cats, not treat it as an opportunity for amatuers to engage in sport-killing. It's true I'm a product of a big city environment, and it shapes my opinions on these issues. I'm not a vegan, and I don't think as much as I should about where the meat I eat comes from. I love a good steak. But I would support a law requiring that animals that are killed are done so in the most humane way possible. I would even support a law that banned killing animals for food. We'd probably be a better and healthier society. But until those laws pass, when I look at a menu thousands of years of sociobiology tend to beat a few decades of animal rights philosophy and I pick the deluxe cheeseburger over the raw tofu chunks.

i respect your opinion but respectfully disagree. If you think the beautiful steak you bought at Gritede's was obtained in the must humane method you might check out Fast Food Nation or it's forbear The Jungle, written nearly a century before. It's all about money....wild animals merely die of exposure or starvation when not harvested.
I would be curious to hear your opinion on fishing....or are your concerns a mammal thing only?

 

[bridgeburner]

Okay, I'm a little late to this and it looks like the arguments that made me roll my eyes have fallen by the wayside, but I certainly won't let that stop me.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

LarkSparrow,

You claim not to understand why somebody who didn't have to would go hunt for meat rather than go to the grocer. Do you have the same lack of understanding for why someone might bake their own bread or cookies rather than buy them? What about people who cook at home at all rather than going out to eat where somebody else does all the work?

I don't personally enjoy a lot of things but it doesn't mean I can't fathom why anyone else might enjoy them.


-B

 

[bridgeburner]

I can't remember who said what at this point so I'm just going to lay it out as it occurs to me.

1. Hunting animals is far more humane a death than raising them in hellish captivity and smashing their heads in with a hammer to save on the cost of bullets.

I'm tired of the bullshit argument from meat-eaters who think corporate slaughterhouses are somehow nicer than hunting. This has nothing to do with the actual facts of the raising and killing and everything to do with stereotypes about what kind of people are hunters.

2. Hunters are not the gun nuts responsible for the gun violence perpetrated against humans in the U.S. The vast majority of gun violence occurs in urban areas so the idea that rural hunters are in responsible is bogus.

3. The main underlying argument I've seen against hunting seems to be that people think it's just not nice to kill cuddly. fluffy big-eyed animals directly. Anyone that makes this argument that isn't a Fruitarian is just being hypocritical.

I think a lot of the anti-hunting sentiment that is based on the "it's immoral to kill animals with a gun while wearing plaid" basis is similar to White Man's Guilt. People justify their current existence by flogging themselves mentally and emotionally over the fact that humans dominate the earth like parasites.

"I eat meat but I pay for it by talking about how bad it is and how evil sport hunters are."

Jesus frickin wept.

Don't torture animals. Don't exterminate species. Don't ever let your vigilance waiver on the issue of gun safety and education particularly if you have children or allow them in your home if you keep guns.

Don't let somebody wearing leather shoes and chowing down at KFC ever for a minute get away with proclaiming that he is somehow a better person than you simply because he didn't kill the cow and chicken himself.

Sorry for the rant, but honestly, this kind of lazy thinking really pisses me off. If you don't like something fine. If you don't like to be around people who engage in something fine. If you want to try and persuade them to your way of thinking, fine, but don't expect to get away with being self-righteous when you're just tooting your own horn.


-B

 

[bridgeburner]

For the record I've never hunted any animal for sport or food other than fishing and likely never will. I get plenty of satisfaction from target shooting.

-B