Being a woman in geek culture

[Recidiva]

I think the point is that the bad stuff the makes the news? That's only the tip of the iceberg. :I

And where have I said that those reports are untrue or that the iceberg isn't there? Again, this is words put into my mouth and trying to get me to defend a position I never took in the first place.

 

[KoPilot]

And where have I said that those reports are untrue or that the iceberg isn't there? Again, this is words put into my mouth and trying to get me to defend a position I never took in the first place.

You insinuated that there's a bias from people outside the community to make the gaming world out to be worse than it actually is, and I'm saying that... I feel that it's actually a very incomplete picture being painted, and it's just as bad, if not worse, than how things are commonly said to be.

 

[Recidiva]

You insinuated that there's a bias from people outside the community to make the gaming world out to be worse than it actually is, and I'm saying that... I feel that it's actually a very incomplete picture being painted, and it's just as bad, if not worse, than how things are commonly said to be.

No, I didn't. I said something completely different. I said that if you don't belong to a group you have no positive to put into the blanks. I didn't say that belonging to a group yields all positive.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Really? You're trying to strip me of my geek cred? No. You don't have the dice roll for it.

I'm not speaking for anybody other than myself, and I am allowed to speak for myself, even if it's not what you would like to hear from me.

yeah... I suppose you have the dice roll to dismiss hundreds of problematic statements and actions as "outliers" -- as long as it's understood that you're speaking for yourself.

I live in Los Angeles. And I have not seen violence with my own eyes for upwards of twelve years. But that doesn't mean that it's not a violent city. Nobody has the dice roll to make that be true.

 

[Recidiva]

yeah... I suppose you have the dice roll to dismiss hundreds of problematic statements and actions as "outliers" -- as long as it's understood that you're speaking for yourself.

I live in Los Angeles. And I have not seen violence with my own eyes for upwards of twelve years. But that doesn't mean that it's not a violent city. Nobody has the dice roll to make that be true.

WTF are you talking about and where in hell do you think that I said or intended to say any of that?

Is this like the Clint Eastwood thing with the empty chair for Obama?

 

[KoPilot]

No, I didn't. I said something completely different. I said that if you don't belong to a group you have no positive to put into the blanks. I didn't say that belonging to a group yields all positive.

Okay point rescinded, but I actually feel like this is still wrong. The impression I'm under is that the popular conception of geek culture is actually one of impotent naivete and frivolity? I guess the meme would be that because geeks are a neutered and sexless group (compared to the mainstream), then that declaws them. Jocks commit rape, not the wide-eyed, rosy-cheeked nerds, etc.

 

[Recidiva]

Okay point rescinded, but I actually feel like this is still wrong. The impression I'm under is that the popular conception of geek culture is actually one of impotent naivete and frivolity? I guess the meme would be that because geeks are a neutered group in a way, and that declaws them. Jocks commit rape, not the innocent geeks, etc.

Okay. What is still wrong. I'd like to be completely clear and not be misinterpreted.

The popular conception of geek culture is...I have to say I don't really care. I'm not playing games to get points or social status or fortune...unless it's imaginary. I understand that this is a business to you, so this is a more serious and life-affecting concern. It's very likely we're talking apples vs. oranges, amateur vs. professional concern.

I've always been weird and I'm okay with it, I gave up on what people thought about me long ago. If I have claws I use them, and nobody has declawed me. I am an amateur. I am a game player, not a game creator.

 

[Stella_Omega]

WTF are you talking about and where in hell do you think that I said or intended to say any of that?

Is this like the Clint Eastwood thing with the empty chair for Obama?

I think that's true about any group that you don't belong to that gets bad press. You have no sense of the community and humor and support that goes on, you only see the stuff that makes the news. It's completely understandable that if you aren't part of it, there's no reason to fill in blanks with good stuff. There's no reason for you to join up if you have no inherent interest in the pastime.

I just have a lifetime of good stuff, good friends, game memories with an online community where people turn into real life friends for years, my husband and daughter and son that were fun bonding. I can easily identify an outlier because I am solidly in the heart of the community and have been for 30 years.

For instance, imagine this sentence. "Oh my goodness, I just read a news report about a couple that were involved in BDSM. Such horrors! I can't imagine how you would ever speak to anybody involved in that, it seems like you're risking life and limb!"

What I'm hoping you mean is something like; "I have such a wonderful community. I wish it could be as welcoming to more geek women in general, and I wish that so many geek women had had not been chased away instead."

 

[KoPilot]

Okay. What is still wrong. I'd like to be completely clear and not be misinterpreted.

The popular conception of geek culture is...I have to say I don't really care. I'm not playing games to get points or social status or fortune...unless it's imaginary. I understand that this is a business to you, so this is a more serious and life-affecting concern. It's very likely we're talking apples vs. oranges, amateur vs. professional concern.

I've always been weird and I'm okay with it, I gave up on what people thought about me long ago. If I have claws I use them, and nobody has declawed me. I am an amateur. I am a game player, not a game creator.

I still think image is important-- it determines how you get reported on if something happens to you. It helps shape public opinion about the gritty details of your subculture. Imagining geeks as being ED-ridden man-children makes it really hard to report on rapes. It makes it really hard to take you seriously when you try and get organizers to step down from their positions for being serial sexual harassers and rapists. The image of geek as a socially-inept innocent cannot exist simultaneously with the image of geek as sexual predator. That's where my concern lies, and that's irrelevant to who I work for.

 

[Recidiva]

What I'm hoping you mean is something like; "I have such a wonderful community. I wish it could be as welcoming to more geek women in general, and I wish that so many geek women had had not been chased away instead."

I think it's fair to say that someone who makes a death threat against a person because of their writing choices is clearly insane. Yes, that's an outlier.

I never said anything about the random, not insane predatory assholes that haunt every human concern, because that's a constant.

What I mean is that I've had a great time and if I encountered the insane predatory assholes, I ripped them a new one until they left me the fuck alone. Feel free to do so in your own right. Assholes avoid me because I'm terribly unpleasant to them, verbally and physically.

I don't think geek women should expect to be welcomed. I think they should fucking carve out their space with razor sharp wits and blades and if you don't want to do that, then okay. But don't bitch at me about it for being effective at making the assholes avoid me as if I were Ebola, and that I have fun doing it.

Giving the assholes shit is part of the FUN of it. If you don't like killing things and taking their stuff, don't do it. If you don't like stomping over people who give you shit, don't do it.

 

[Recidiva]

I still think image is important-- it determines how you get reported on if something happens to you. It helps shape public opinion about the gritty details of your subculture. Imagining geeks as being ED-ridden man-children makes it really hard to report on rapes. It makes it really hard to take you seriously when you try and get organizers to step down from their positions for being serial sexual harassers and rapists. The image of geek as a socially-inept innocent cannot exist simultaneously with the image of geek as sexual predator. That's where my concern lies, and that's irrelevant to who I work for.

Okay. I see geeks as people. Just like every other group of people.

I don't have a preconception...and I'd like to know what ED-ridden means, please. I don't know.

Rapes are the same if it's a jock or a geek. It's a person.

The best reporting on a rape is a rape kit and a DNA sample. Geek DNA tests just the same.

This is my viewpoint, to be clear.

 

[KoPilot]

I think they should fucking carve out their space with razor sharp wits and blades and if you don't want to do that, then okay.

I don't have that fight in me. I look at guys who I think have the potential to do something to me, and I see those boys in 2nd grade who harassed me into taking my pants and underwear off on the playground so they could ogle to their hearts content. I see the boy in 7th grade, who I was best friends with a few years before, who took my ring and threw it someplace I couldn't find it. I see my father who wanted me to be anorexic so that I could attract a boyfriend at 13. I see all the countless people who could have decided to physically reprimand me for not getting in the car with them back when I lived in the city.

I guess I don't belong in geek culture.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't have that fight in me. I look at guys who I think have the potential to do something to me, and I see those boys in 2nd grade who harassed me into taking my pants and underwear off on the playground so they could ogle to their hearts content. I see the boy in 7th grade, who I was best friends with a few years before, who took my ring and threw it someplace I couldn't find it. I see my father who wanted me to be anorexic so that I could attract a boyfriend at 13. I see all the countless people who could have decided to physically reprimand me for not getting in the car with them back when I lived in the city.

I guess I don't belong in geek culture.

Jesus, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. That's horrible and I don't blame you for not wanting to dive in blades glinting if those are the memories it brings to the fore.

I have no history of abuse. I can't possibly advise you on how to navigate that.

I can offer sympathy and honor your struggle and want to punch out anybody who gets in your way. Geek culture would take a hit if you left.

 

[Stella_Omega]

See? You're still talking like it's " random insane people making death threats against people who write" that is the biggest problem we face.

But the fact is, it's random MEN making those threats towards WOMEN who write things. they don't issue death threats against men who write about geek culture.. at least, not unless the male writer talks about sexism as a real problem, then the guys get death threats.

And in fact, that's only the tip of the sexist iceberg that you went out of your way to acknowledge does exist.

What I mean is that I've had a great time and if I encountered the insane predatory assholes, I ripped them a new one until they left me the fuck alone. Feel free to do so in your own right. Assholes avoid me because I'm terribly unpleasant to them, verbally and physically.

Maybe so, but you're not Anita Sarkeesian, and I doubt you ever had to deal with the sheer volume of assholery that she did.

And you can tell that a lot of people think that randome violence is something worth worrying about-- when she started her kickstarter campaign she was only asking for 6k-- she ended up with $158,922 in pledges, seven thousand people who thought she had something important to do.

Giving the assholes shit is part of the FUN of it. If you don't like killing things and taking their stuff, don't do it. If you don't like stomping over people who give you shit, don't do it.

If i don't like abiding by the rules that the boys developed, yep.

I kick ass all the time, but really? It's never been what I would call "fun." More like fuuuck this thing is necessary to my survival, one way or another. I don't game, and that is why.

Lately there have been a few platforms where griefing is not the default. Maybe I'd join TUG for instance. I had some input on the development, in fact. Gaming doesn't have to be restricted to those few definitions.

I have no history of abuse. I can't possibly advise you on how to navigate that.

that's a good start. Now imagine all the other things you have no knowledge of, and are therefore incapable of advising someone about.

 

[Recidiva]

See? You're still talking like it's " random insane people making death threats against people who write" that is the biggest problem we face.

But the fact is, it's random MEN making those threats towards WOMEN who write things. they don't issue death threats against men who write about geek culture.. at least, not unless the male writer talks about sexism as a real problem, then the guys get death threats.

And in fact, that's only the tip of the sexist iceberg that you went out of your way to acknowledge does exist.

Maybe so, but you're not Anita Sarkeesian, and I doubt you ever had to deal with the sheer volume of assholery that she did.

And you can tell that a lot of people think that randome violence is something worth worrying about-- when she started her kickstarter campaign she was only asking for 6k-- she ended up with $158,922 in pledges, seven thousand people who thought she had something important to do.

If i don't like abiding by the rules that the boys developed, yep.

I kick ass all the time, but really? It's never been what I would call "fun." More like fuuuck this thing is necessary to my survival, one way or another. I don't game, and that is why.

Lately there have been a few platforms where griefing is not the default. Maybe I'd join TUG for instance. I had some input on the development, in fact. Gaming doesn't have to be restricted to those few definitions.

Stella, I really don't know why you want to lay all the world's ills at my feet and tell me I'm blind to them, or that they happen because I just won't fix them. There's really not much to say that I haven't already said or clarified three times.

If you want to insist that I'm the problem, then have at it. I just disagree with you.

 

[Recidiva]

that's a good start. Now imagine all the other things you have no knowledge of, and are therefore incapable of advising someone about.

Maybe you could take a turn at that yourself. You're righteousness at the fact that I offered sympathy and somehow you claim victory on that, is nauseating.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, I really don't know why you want to lay all the world's ills at my feet and tell me I'm blind to them, or that they happen because I just won't fix them. There's really not much to say that I haven't already said or clarified three times.

If you want to insist that I'm the problem, then have at it. I just disagree with you.

LOL it's not about you. You've made it very clear that you got yours Jack.

 

[Recidiva]

I read this as a typo for ID-ridden

Oh! Thank you

 

[BrightlyGo]

I think it's fair to say that someone who makes a death threat against a person because of their writing choices is clearly insane. Yes, that's an outlier.

Most 'death threats' aren't from people who actually intend to carry through on them, though, are they? Just morons with no sense of proportion when it comes to expressing themselves. It can be over something comparatively trivial. A writer kills off a character or retcons a backstory or even just changes a character's look, and, boom: nerdrage & even death threats.

 

[Netzach]

Most 'death threats' aren't from people who actually intend to carry through on them, though, are they? Just morons with no sense of proportion when it comes to expressing themselves. It can be over something comparatively trivial. A writer kills off a character or retcons a backstory or even just changes a character's look, and, boom: nerdrage & even death threats.

You guys wanna play Russian Roulette with assloads of these threats on a given day? I don't. Some pretty scary fuckers exist on the loner margins folded into the geek scene.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You guys wanna play Russian Roulette with assloads of these threats on a given day? I don't. Some pretty scary fuckers exist on the loner margins folded into the geek scene.

Yeah, that.

And also it doesn't matter whether or not the death part of the threat is genuine-- the threat part is fully intended, and that shit will wear you down after a while. No one really wants to live in a war zone.

Especially when the message you're getting the threats about is; "These guys have no right or reason to be threatening me."

 

[satindesire]

No greater honor and I hope reincarnation is real so I can get a shot someday.

Oh, don't say things like that out loud. LITERALLY everyone on Lit hates me.

*huge grin*

ETA: This pertains to another thread where I was told that everyone on Lit thought "you look like a fucking idiot too. You're shameless, ridiculous self promotion is vile. The way you talk about yourself is fucking delusional."-endquote. Don't ask, it's a short and hysterically impotent story.

 

[satindesire]

Most 'death threats' aren't from people who actually intend to carry through on them, though, are they? Just morons with no sense of proportion when it comes to expressing themselves. It can be over something comparatively trivial. A writer kills off a character or retcons a backstory or even just changes a character's look, and, boom: nerdrage & even death threats.

One of the problems I have with this theory is this:

Not all men are rapists. But do you know what happens in the brains of male rapists? They think ALL men are rapists...-they just hide it better-. They don't get caught. So when they see rape/death threats being ignored as "harmless" (because no one means it in the general public's opinions) that honest-to-god ENCOURAGES them to act, because the words had no impact so neither will the actions.

Yes, it's not an everyday occurrence. No, not every man that makes a rape or death threat on a woman will do it, but if we ignore it as harmless then we are sending the message that IT IS OKAY TO DO THESE THINGS because NO ONE CARES.

In my opinion, the only way we can show the few people that WOULD carry out these threats that it is NOT okay is to take every threat seriously and act accordingly.

You guys wanna play Russian Roulette with assloads of these threats on a given day? I don't. Some pretty scary fuckers exist on the loner margins folded into the geek scene.

Exactly. Do we really want to ignore a threat that looks no different from one that would be acted upon? There's no way to tell the difference. For all we know, a guy could use some sort of IP tracker to look up the woman in question's address and really assault/murder her.

 

[Recidiva]

Most 'death threats' aren't from people who actually intend to carry through on them, though, are they? Just morons with no sense of proportion when it comes to expressing themselves. It can be over something comparatively trivial. A writer kills off a character or retcons a backstory or even just changes a character's look, and, boom: nerdrage & even death threats.

I don't know the statistics really. In my case...I actually have gotten a few here on Lit.

I consider the source. With my personality I tend to go on the offensive. "Oh yeah?! Fucker?! Really? Here's my address, good luck!"

In the history of the internet with me I've had maybe two where I'd pissed off someone unstable enough that they made what was likely a credible threat.

It can be trivial, but nobody makes them unless they're already lacking important brain parts. I'm not saying you should do what I do or not do what someone else did.

Crazy people are like wounded animals backed into dark painful corners and they are very dangerous.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh, don't say things like that out loud. LITERALLY everyone on Lit hates me.

*huge grin*

ETA: This pertains to another thread where I was told that everyone on Lit thought "you look like a fucking idiot too. You're shameless, ridiculous self promotion is vile. The way you talk about yourself is fucking delusional."-endquote. Don't ask, it's a short and hysterically impotent story.

My husband says I have a talent for alienating people