Bravo, Capt. Picard

[McKenna]

.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Bravo, Capt. Picard

Liar and Kelly: I’m not up to debating (don’t enjoy it), even arguing, but I’ll try to respond a bit. I still say gratuitous violence perpetuates a culture of violence, and in this still very patriarchal society, violence against women in particular. Whether my 95% is accurate or not, I daresay the percentage is high.

I am not suggesting silencing anyone or any media, but allow me to protest what sells, eh?

“Light” may be shed on problems and issues without gratuity. Real art does that. I believe the majority of films created, esp. from Hollywood, are not art, so this is not a matter of censorship but one of consciousness. Look how long it took for the movies to discover how they were portraying Blacks and Native Americans. The portrayal of women in film still leaves much to be desired.

I am not cynical but I do not believe anyone really learns anything from mainstream films. They mostly carry in-your-face crap, at the very best a superficial and skimming glance at reality, or more dangerously—subliminal messages that support the infrastructure of patriarchy.

I am not thin-skinned and I do not personally find violence in movies offensive, that is not my protest. Again, it is the preponderance of violence against women, even in films that appear to have a message against it.

As for Stewart appearing to sound more important than he is, that has nothing to do with anything. Regardless of his persona, I found his statements intelligent, articulate and based on facts and experience.

I admire Peckinpah as a fine director, but that’s not to say he wasn’t part of the problem. I’ve read his biographies because I wanted to know more about his art, but he had big issues with women and it comes through in his films. No, I would not keep anyone from seeing his films because of the violence or the way women are treated, but as with any real work of art I would expect a viewer to know they were watching more than a “story” or anything one might call real life.

... If you pay money to watch it you sanction its acceptance.
... How much further can your decadence take you?

Thank you, Gauche.

Perdita

 

[kellycummings]

I have to say that I think it's a matter of personal taste. If you don't like violence or horror then of course you're going to avoid the movie. That doesn't make the people who see it decadent or bad in any way. I personally enjoy the Godfather movies. They are very violent and although the violence isn't against women, they are treated as objects throughout the series. And of course, why just violence against women? Why does it seem ok for men to kill each other? Seems like a double standard.
I respect anyones right speak their mind but I feel that Gauche was saying that I and others are wrong for paying to see a movie that we find entertaining. That argument can work for slasher films and low grade horror movies but not ones that are good and sometimes great. Kurosawa's films were violent and no one says anything about them. Same for Hitchcock.
I don't think they can't be grouped together. If you don't like it, fine, don't see it. It makes no difference to me. But I'm not wrong for seeing it myself, nor is anyone else. If I want to watch Lethal Weapon for some simple entertainment, I'm not wrong for doing so.
I could go on and on and defend Romero and Carpenter and Todd Browning, James Whale (talk about issues with women!) but anyone else could come up with equally compelling arguments against them.
If you don't like it, don't see it. But don't put someone else down for doing it.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Bravo, Capt. Picard

Liar and Kelly: I’m not up to debating (don’t enjoy it), even arguing, but I’ll try to respond a bit. I still say gratuitous violence perpetuates a culture of violence, and in this still very patriarchal society, violence against women in particular. Whether my 95% is accurate or not, I daresay the percentage is high.

I agree that we have a "culture of violence" problem, but I've said elsewhere that I disagree with the coalition of groups that are against "Violence Against Women." I believe that they have too narrow a focus and are only addressing a very small part ot the problem and aiming their advertising at the wrong demographics.

I'd much prefer they campaigned against "Domestic Violence" -- which includes husband abuse, elder abuse, child abuse, as well as "violence against women."

Wome are the primary victims of domestic violence, but they are far from the ONLY victims of domestic violence or our "Culture of Violence." Let's attack the roots of the violence problem instead of just one symptom of the problem.

I admire Peckinpah as a fine director, but that’s not to say he wasn’t part of the problem. I’ve read his biographies because I wanted to know more about his art, but he had big issues with women and it comes through in his films. No, I would not keep anyone from seeing his films because of the violence or the way women are treated, but as with any real work of art I would expect a viewer to know they were watching more than a “story” or anything one might call real life.

The Wild Bunch was an important movie in the way violence is portrayed in movies, but I don't recall that it was particularly pivotal in the way women were portrayed. The few women in that movie were generally historically accurate roles as far as I know.

However, I must be missing something in the way women are portrayed on film now -- although I'll admit to not being a big movie fan over the last 20 years or so, so I'm not up on the fine details of movies in general. I do watch a bit of TV and occasionally catch some hollywood releases that way.

What I've seen from my random sampling of movies and TV over the last fifty years or so, is:

1: Movies have gotten more graphically violent over the years.

2: The restriction on sex in movies has gotten laxer over the years.

3: Women have moved away fromthe frontier school-marm who got kissed less than the horses to strong leading roles.

4: Women seem to be dishing out almost as much violence as the men and aliens do and usually with more reason.

5: Some films -- those I dub "cheap sexist comedies" -- are more prone to include women for their appearance than for their abilities, but even there, there are strong women who are often the only source of sanity and rational thought in the whole movie. It's usually the "smart but plain girl" in those movies that saves the day in the end.

The first movie I can recall that featured a woman in a graphically violent film was Hanny Caulder, starring Raquel Welch as a woman who becomes a gunslinger to get revenge for being raped. Sharon Stone made a somewhat similar movie a few years ago that starred her as a female gunfighter. From the brief hints inthis thread about Kill Bill inthis thread, it sounds like another "Woman seeking revenge" film.

Maybe I'm not watching the right movies to see the subliminal "violence against women" message. What I've seen is an ever-increasing trend towards smart capable women who can (and will) dish out more violence than they receive.

On the whole, I prefer the women in today's movies to the frontier schoolmarms and saloon girls (who would never think of putting out for Love, let alone SELL sex.)

Today's movie women are more real and more capable than they were in my childhood and, on the whole, I think I prefer it that way.

(Pre-code movies from the 20's and 30's had very strong and capable women for their day, (as well as lots of pretty skin,) but they were still basically unrealistic and mostly paternalistic portrayals of women. Not to mention I never had a chance to see any of them until Turner Classic Movies started featuring them.)

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bravo, Capt. Picard

The Wild Bunch was an important movie in the way violence is portrayed in movies, but I don't recall that it was particularly pivotal in the way women were portrayed. The few women in that movie were generally historically accurate roles as far as I know.

I like The Wild Bunch, great film, but it's not the only film SP made. Re. your last sentence, as far as you know differs from as far as I know.

As I mentioned, I don't care for debating. Throw in whatever films you want to mention (art or schlock), I was speaking of a culture, not individual films or men. I love The Godfather films too, and Scorsese; can't bear anything of Mel Gibson. Doesn't matter here.

Excuse my arrogance, if you will, or not, but there are about two people on the AH I think substantively intelligent enough to have a discussion with. That's why I only post my opinions and then give up at the responses.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

Sorry, no point, no discussion desired. I know there are PS fans (I am one) on site so I thought I'd post this. P.

Make it so.

 

[shereads]

Re: Lo darling

Lo Purdy darling, glad you like we mature guys with a few follicles missing. Like PS and I.

Early-onset balding is a sign of high testosterone...Is it warm in here, or is it just me?

 

[raphy]

I personally haven't seen Kill Bill (I'm not a big Uma Thurman fan), but I think old Captain Slaphead is overstating things a little bit.

Personally, I wouldn't say that I find the overall portrayal of women in mainstream hollywood movies as denigrating, and let's remember, we have to be talking about the overall portrayal, because there'll always be single cases of exceptions, no matter what argument you're trying to convince other people of.

In Hollywood movies today we have women as antagonists, women as protagonists, women in strong leading roles, women who change the world. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yes, we also have women as victims, or weak damsels in distress, or other types of stereotypical women, but for every example of a weak female character you can come up with, I can give you an example of a strong one - Or an equivalent weak male character.

I guess that I'm really not sure exactly what your point is, 'dita - I don't know what you'd want changed in Hollywood to make mainstream movies more acceptable to you.

Of course, these opinions come from an action-movie lover, a Jerry Bruckheimer devotee, so do with them as you will. As someone for whom violence has played a large part in his life (nightclub bouncer, martial arts tournaments, etc), I have zero problem with violence in movies, whether it be the 'special FX' violence of The Matrix or the gritty realistic violence of G.I. Jane.

At least in Hollywood the good guys usually win, the weak is defended and justice is served.

 

[Guest]

At least in Hollywood the good guys usually win, the weak is defended and justice is served.

That's such a comfort.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

Make it so.

Oh, ella, you brought a tear to my right eye. (I wet my knickers whenever he said that.)

Perdita

 

[raphy]

That's such a comfort.

Perdita

It should be. My point was that if you can draw one single thing from a mainstream movie, it's that if you're a bad guy and do bad things, you lose.

I definitely think that claiming that Hollywood makes violence against women gratuitous is unfounded. I watch a lot of mainstream Hollywood movies, and I've never thought that.

Like I said, I rather think ol' Picard was overstating his case somewhat.

 

[Guest]

Just keep the comfort coming, raffo. My sarcasm knows no bounds.

P.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I am not for cencorship. I deal with hollywood, television and the music industry in the way I wish more people did. I don't like it so I don't watch, or listen to it.

Hollywood puts out what sells. Sex, violence & sensationalism. The violence, wheter against women or not is as Dita points out, mostly gratuitous. if you are making a war movie, I can accept a high body count, its part of war. But there is no reason for depopulating the earth in an action adventure other than jacking up the blod and gore to draw better crowds.

Television does the same thing, up to the level it can. The music industry is harder to castigate beacuse for every misogynistic rap artist or philandering pop artist there are tons of down to earth folk artists and deeply spiritual gospel artists. Music offers such a wide variety of fare that it is hard to even attempt to talk about the music industry in anything but the vaguest and most general of terms.

So I speak my mind with my entertainment dollar and more often than not it goes for books

-Colly

 

[raphy]

Just keep the comfort coming, raffo. My sarcasm knows no bounds.

P.

So I've noticed. Sarcasm is, of course, the final refuge of those with no argument.

 

[Guest]

So I speak my mind with my entertainment dollar and more often than not it goes for books

Yea!! Me too. And as I said on another thread, Colly is fucking smart! . P.

 

[raphy]

Hollywood puts out what sells. Sex, violence & sensationalism. The violence, wheter against women or not is as Dita points out, mostly gratuitous. if you are making a war movie, I can accept a high body count, its part of war. But there is no reason for depopulating the earth in an action adventure other than jacking up the blod and gore to draw better crowds.

Aaah, the overall violence in mainstream movies is gratuitous, and that's not something I'll argue against. I totally agree. But I'm not going to sit here and pick out one specific category of that violence (re. towards women). What about gratuitious violence towards men? Why is that acceptable? Why don't we get all riled up about that? You want equality, you got equality.

Don't ask me, I don't have the answer, I happen to like my movie violence graphic and gratuitous.

 

[Guest]

So I've noticed. Sarcasm is, of course, the final refuge of those with no argument.

O, you poo poo head, I said my say and that I'm not into arguing. Sarcasm is wit, not a refuge. You insult the arts.

P.

 

[Guest]

... What about gratuitious violence towards men? Why is that acceptable?
... I happen to like my movie violence graphic and gratuitous.

Easy. Cos it's mostly men that create it, for men.

Your last statement, proof of the pudding.

P.

 

[raphy]

O, you poo poo head, I said my say and that I'm not into arguing. Sarcasm is wit, not a refuge. You insult the arts.

P.

Ah well, they do say it's the lowest form of wit and the highest form of intelligence. Or is it the other way around. I dunno, I think I'm too sarcastic all the time to be able to tell the difference anymore..

I do wonder about this though, cara'dita..

You say you're not into arguing, but then after hearing your piece what recourse do those have who disagree with you? You're allowed to say your piece, but as soon as a contrary reply arrives, you're 'not into arguing' ... So if you're not into arguing, how do I get the chance to say my piece?

Just wondering..

 

[raphy]

Easy. Cos it's mostly men that create it, for men.

Your last statement, proof of the pudding.

P.

I'm still not sure exactly what you'd like to see changed to reduce this supposed disrespectful portrayal of female characters.

 

[Guest]

You say you're not into arguing, but then after hearing your piece what recourse do those have who disagree with you? You're allowed to say your piece, but as soon as a contrary reply arrives, you're 'not into arguing' ... So if you're not into arguing, how do I get the chance to say my piece?

It's my thread and I'm a woman. Deal with it . Seriously, I only argue when it seems worthwhile, or when it suits me

la femme Perdita

 

[SadieRose]

Hmm...

The leaning of the argument/discussion/bun-fight, call it what you may, seems to be that Hollywood is guilty of leading the simple-minded into a morass of mindless violence and unthinking cruelty. What would be the solution to that? Intelligence Tests at the box office of every cinema?? (though that would be amusing to watch the first couple of times, I think that the novelty would soon wear off.)

Nope, we've dug ourselves into this hole and we're not going to get out without a long and winding process relearning attitudes and morals. In thirty years time the arguments will either be about whether it's wrong or right to watch someone being murdered live on prime-time TV, or they'll be wistful reminiscences of the good ol' days when it wasn't un-PC to punch some irritating blonde bimbo in a movie when she'd signed up to take the punch (and the pay-check) in the first place.

As you've already said; if you don't wanna see it, don't pay to go in there in the first place.

Unfortunately, real life's not so simple. The bad guys do bad things and they walk away laughing 90% of the time. What we gonna do about that, homies?

Sadie


BTW, for any UK PS fans. He's on Parky (another Yorkshireman) tonite.

 

[Guest]

Nope, we've dug ourselves into this hole and we're not going to get out without a long and winding process relearning attitudes and morals.

... What we gonna do about that, homies?

That's what I meant 'bout the culture.

Ooh, a Brit using 'homies'. Bueno! Chiquita.

Perdita

 

[SadieRose]

That's what I meant 'bout the culture.

Ooh, a Brit using 'homies'. Bueno! Chiquita.

Perdita

Never let it be said that I do not pay attention to other cultures

But to be serious for a moment. Violence is too indoctrinated into our lives to simply be eradicated overnight. It's a sad fact, but true, mi bonita Perdita.



Sadie (who also can manage un poco español)

 

[Guest]

But to be serious for a moment. Violence is too indoctrinated into our lives to simply be eradicated overnight. It's a sad fact, but true, mi bonita Perdita.

Yes, but it's no reason to not protest and rant or whinge, eh? Orale.

You're not alone in knowing poquito español and it is appreciated by this MexChick.

P.