Can we talk about gender identity? Not transgender experience, just gender identity.

[M_K_Babalon]

Mine also never shuts up, but I've never considered it anything but my thoughts in my head.

I'll have sort-of conversations with myself to help me reason things out, or to work out a problem, or organize what I'm thinking about.


It comes up fairly frequently in /r/books where people talk about having no internal visualization. From what I've seen, it's about 5-10% of the population. The term is aphantasia.

Something that I haven't seen anyone else talk about is that I don't imagine sounds when I read or write. Not even voices in dialogue. It's kind of weird and interesting. I also rarely describe or use sounds in my work as well.

It's one aspect of movies and TV that are superior over reading, for me.

Mine are just my thoughts. The only time there's other voices in there is when my mind is making up scenarios that never happened. I really don't want any of them, most of the time none of them are good.

I've seen many people in r/FanFiction say the same thing. I guess the whole minority is on Reddit. I don't always imagine sounds either.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Mine also never shuts up, but I've never considered it anything but my thoughts in my head.

I'll have sort-of conversations with myself to help me reason things out, or to work out a problem, or organize what I'm thinking about.


It comes up fairly frequently in /r/books where people talk about having no internal visualization. From what I've seen, it's about 5-10% of the population. The term is aphantasia.

Something that I haven't seen anyone else talk about is that I don't imagine sounds when I read or write. Not even voices in dialogue. It's kind of weird and interesting. I also rarely describe or use sounds in my work as well.

It's one aspect of movies and TV that are superior over reading, for me.

Mine also never shuts up, but I've never considered it anything but my thoughts in my head.

I'll have sort-of conversations with myself to help me reason things out, or to work out a problem, or organize what I'm thinking about.


It comes up fairly frequently in /r/books where people talk about having no internal visualization. From what I've seen, it's about 5-10% of the population. The term is aphantasia.

Something that I haven't seen anyone else talk about is that I don't imagine sounds when I read or write. Not even voices in dialogue. It's kind of weird and interesting. I also rarely describe or use sounds in my work as well.

It's one aspect of movies and TV that are superior over reading, for me.

A few weeks ago a client, who is a diagnosed schizophrenic, said to me: “I just realized that just because the voices in my head tell me to do something, I don’t have to do it. I don’t do what anybody else tells me to do, why the fuck should I listen to them?”

 

[MelissaBaby]

The voice is fine most of the time, but when it gets cranky it's like having a four year old in my head

When I was writing the Gold Dollar Girls, Roxanne and Clover were bitching at each other in my head nonstop for days. There is the scene when Clover tells Roxy, “I’m the cobra and you’re the mongoose”…that was about a three hour conversation.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've even written into a story that my MC grabs her head and shouts 'Shut Up!' to an empty room. Yup.
Eviction notices are seldom effective either. Only imprisoning them with The End seems to work.

Exactly. They have an unresolved argument about whether or not their strip club should have a Ladies Night. I'm going to resolve that in my Pink Orchid story, so they'll finally shut up about it.

 

[AG31]

I don't always imagine sounds either.

Me too. I figured this out years after I'd discovered aphantasia (lack of ability to make visual images). I'm a flute player, and now I realize that my vague sense of bewilderment when a conductor would hum a place in the piece. I don't have audial memory either. But I am a damn good flute player. I "feel" it when I'm in tune, but if I'm out of tune I don't know whether I'm flat or sharp.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm a female lesbian with certain butch tendencies at times. Other times, all girly and want to coo and cuddle with my lover.

 

[AG31]

We're funny old things, people. Yet we have enough in common to get by.

Too true, too true.

 

[NoTalentHack]

That's interesting.
There's folks with alexithymia to various degrees and can't recognise or articulate their emotions: they feel them but can't anticipate or regulate them. Maybe a bit like knowing you're in tune, but not recognising sharp or flat.

We're funny old things, people. Yet we have enough in common to get by.

That’s incredibly helpful. I didn’t know there was a name for that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's interesting.
There's folks with alexithymia to various degrees and can't recognise or articulate their emotions: they feel them but can't anticipate or regulate them.

This is something I have issues with. I sometimes have difficulty observing my own emotions directly, and have to look for indirect cues in the same way I might try to gauge somebody else's emotions - if I'm staying up until 2 am it probably means I was stressed, yada yada.

 

[SweetBaybeeGirl]

I'm a female lesbian with certain butch tendencies at times. Other times, all girly and want to coo and cuddle with my lover.

Both are very attractive. Both in the same package is incredibly exciting!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Here's on example of how my brain works as an example. When I was around 10yrs, I wrote a poem as an English class exercise. My English teacher was impressed enough to tell me to show it to my housemaster. My housemaster lent back in his chair, scanned the work and nodded 'Very good XXX'. Next day at assembly I passed the English teacher "Did Mr C pat you on your back about your poem?"
In my head 'No, he hadn't patted me on my back.' I was desperately respectful of the teachers and could only tell the truth ( an autistic trait ). "Um, no," I replied.
The English teacher then found my housemaster and accosted him 'Why didn't you compliment XXX on their poem?' 'I did!' he replied. They both turned to me, but despite my wishes, the ground would not open beneath my feet.
He didn't pat me on my back!! I didn't understand that it was a NT allegory.

“Emily, Why do you have to take everything so literally?”

“Um… because that’s what you said ”

Emily

 

[TheRedChamber]

1 - Does what I said above make sense to you?
2 - Do you have a sense for your own gender apart from just inhabiting a particular physical body?
3 - If "yes," to #2, are you able to describe what that mental experience is?
4 - If "yes," to #2, does this involve wanting to participate in the behavior society expects of a gender? In other words, if society didn't have different expectations/norms for the sexes, would your sense of your own gender identity be as strong?

This is a good way to re-phrase the question. If you woke up with the other sex's body, how would you react? (Leaving out practical matters like the impact on your current romantic/family life).

This thread has kind of gotten necroed, but I didn't have a crack at it at the time and I'm in the mood to try and tackle something at least semi-deep right now. I've read through the thread again and especially the first page where things got pretty deep, but it's probably easiest if I start again from scratch for my own feelings. I'm also going to dart around the questions, somewhat.

So, firstly, I would absolutely love to experience life as a woman for at least a limited period. Would I like to live as a woman permanently? I have no idea, but as someone who has been deeply unhappy at periods of my life as a man and especially unhappy because of my romantic failures as a man, there's always been a certain amount of feeling that the grass is greener on the other side. But none of this is dysphoria - I don't think that I should be a woman, only that it might be nice to be. But there are also some pretty obvious downsides in society to being a woman. There's definitely a large degree of sexual novelty in this, but also relationship novelty.

The question for whether I have a sense of gender apart from inhabiting a body doesn't particularly make sense to me. I was raised in a time before the current ideas about gender became mainstream. So I am a man because I have a penis (and so on). There's a whole bunch of things that go on top of that, but all of those just change what kind of man I am rather than my fundamental gender. I'm stereotypically male in some respects 'good at maths', 'more interested in things than people' and not in others like 'interested in sport'.

My basic conception of gender goes something like this. I believe that humans have evolved to copy each other. This started as basic monkey see, monkey do tool use, but also applies to socialization (and most definitely language). Children especially have a basic command that says copy what the adult do. But they also have a command that says if you see that men and women behave differently in some aspect copy the man (as it might be). (And, yes, most parents reinforce this by stressing gender and gender conforming behaviour) And as they grow they are also likely to compare their bodies to those of their gender to get a sense of their sexual value so they can find an appropriate partner when the time comes. I suspect that gender dysphoria is probably a case of this switch getting flipped so it's pointing to the gender opposite to their biological sex. In other words, that it's a very real thing and must be very difficult to process and make sense of growing up. But as someone who doesn't experience this, it's just a way I've constructed of understanding it.

Society is a pretty big place. But I'd argue that my sister and I had pretty much the same expectations from our parents, at least. We would both go to university, both get good jobs doing something professional that matched our interests and talents, and that we'd both settle down and start a family when the time came (but keep our jobs). I remember my sister at age around 18 having a go at my grandmother for her suggesting that it was okay for a man to smoke but not a woman. Obviously, there are a million and one ways that society differentiates the sexes, but even in the 80s/90s when I was growing up there was at least a nominal equality in basic expectations and also a big upswing in 'lad' culture, but also 'ladette' culture at least in the UK. There might still have been a double standard over sexual behaviour, but since I wasn't getting any as a man, it hardly mattered to me.

Anyway, I could go on, but that covers some of the basics.

 

[AG31]

The question for whether I have a sense of gender apart from inhabiting a body doesn't particularly make sense to me.

Me either, but, since some people commit suicide because they feel they are in the wrong body, it clearly makes sense to some people.

I suspect that gender dysphoria is probably a case of this switch getting flipped so it's pointing to the gender opposite to their biological sex. In other words, that it's a very real thing and must be very difficult to process and make sense of growing up.

I don't think I've heard this theory before. It makes lots of sense. But I'm more and more interested in the differences in brains apart from nurture. Differences like the ability to create mental visual images like I describe in the OP.

 

[AG31]

I'm really glad this thread got woken up, because since I posted it I've had another idea. Way back in early October I made a post asking Why is rape given special status as a crime? I got dumped on royally for being insensitive enough to even have the question (one person declared that I was a sociopath), but now I'm wondering if my bewilderment comes from having the same part of my brain sort of de-activated that is de-activated to eliminate visual imagery and (maybe) a strong sense of gender identity. Possible??

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, if you have to ask, you may already have your answer. But to be perfectly frank, that's open and honest, not a fat hairy guy, IDK!

I'm really glad this thread got woken up, because since I posted it I've had another idea. Way back in early October I made a post asking Why is rape given special status as a crime? I got dumped on royally for being insensitive enough to even have the question (one person declared that I was a sociopath), but now I'm wondering if my bewilderment comes from having the same part of my brain sort of de-activated that is de-activated to eliminate visual imagery and (maybe) a strong sense of gender identity. Possible??

 

[ElectricBlue]

but now I'm wondering if my bewilderment comes from having the same part of my brain sort of de-activated that is de-activated to eliminate visual imagery and (maybe) a strong sense of gender identity. Possible??

Probable. People's brains are wired differently, it's that simple. You only have to look around the AH to see that. What puzzles me is the number of people who took a while in their lives to figure out that other people don't think/perceive the same way they do.

For me, that's as obvious as seeing that some people are maths-centric or written, others are musical, others not; some can express visually (draw and paint, sculpt), others can't draw a stick figure. Some people are better at sport, others aren't, and so on.

 

[AG31]

Well, if you have to ask, you may already have your answer. But to be perfectly frank, that's open and honest, not a fat hairy guy, IDK!

I don't understand a single phrase of this reply. Clarify?

 

[AlinaX]

There are so many facets of human identity that we can only really observe when our own instincts are at variance to common expectation. If your romantic and sexual orientations match, you have no reason to examine the distinction between these. If your gender identity matches others' perception of you, why would you question that?

Working against a more general understanding of ourselves is a fundamental fear of the idea that people think in different ways. Humans are hugely complex creatures, and a lot of how we cope with that is by assuming that we are all essentially human and therefore that we think in the same way.

At the extreme is our horror of sociopaths. Somehow it's easier to believe in Evil than accept that some people just think differently.

At a less extreme, more everyday level, what if an average guy plucks up the courage to ask out a cute girl? She might say no, preferring different man. Oh well, that's life. But... what if she just doesn't like men? When women are supposed to like men... aren't they? Okay, lesbians exist, but what if she doesn't like anyone? That's just not fair! What right does she have to be so cute and not like anyone! She's lying, has to be, everyone falls in love, especially cute girls...

 

[AlinaX]

Which all leads to the conclusion that if you want to understand gender identity, don't ask people who've never needed to question it themselves.

I don't claim to understand gender, even my own, but I do know it matters.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Which all leads to the conclusion that if you want to understand gender identity, don't ask people who've never needed to question it themselves.

I don't claim to understand gender, even my own, but I do know it matters.

That is a very true statement. I've never had any doubts about my own sexual orientation, so I don't need to question it - but it's equally obvious that for others, it's far less black and white. It's every colour in between.

 

[AlexBailey]

. I suspect that gender dysphoria is probably a case of this switch getting flipped so it's pointing to the gender opposite to their biological sex.

This resonates with me to some degree.

My “switch” may have been flipped by how I was raised but I don’t know what aspects of my identity were influenced more by nurture than by nature, I suspect it was strongly the influence of both.

In my younger years I was easily mistaken for female, I had a mostly absent father, a princess older sister, and a dating mother. I was more in tune with the kind of attention society gives females who may be seeking it. I knew I was male and had many typically male traits and interests but I didn’t relate to being male socially. One thing for certain is that I was always very jealous of my older sister for a wide variety of reasons.

 

[MillieDynamite]

My answer needs no clarification, I don't know! But if you are asking the question, you have already answered it yourself. As in, "If I call black people the N-word; does that make me a racist?" "If I believe a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant doing the dishes, am I a misogynist?"

but now I'm wondering if my bewilderment comes from having the same part of my brain sort of de-activated that is de-activated to eliminate visual imagery and (maybe) a strong sense of gender identity. Possible??

I don't understand a single phrase of this reply. Clarify?

 

[AlexBailey]

My answer needs no clarification, I don't know! But if you are asking the question, you have already answered it yourself. As in, "If I call black people the N-word; does that make me a racist?" "If I believe a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant doing the dishes, am I a misogynist?"

* Is a black person racist when the use the N-word?

* Is a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom while her husband goes out and earns the household money a misogynist?

* I AG31 sexist for being a woman who doesn’t feel that rape should be a different degree or classification of violence?

 

[MillieDynamite]

While I don't agree with the use of the N-word by anyone, no blacks aren't necessarily racist when they use the word. Some blacks are racist, though, in that they hate white people.

No, a woman who chooses to stay at home and raise children isn't misogynistic. Some who do are, in that they want it for all women.

As I said, I don't know the answer to this one. However, by asking the question, she is at least seeking an answer. But when answered the question, she may have answered the question. Possible doesn't men definitely. It means it is possible that she has those tendencies. But then again, being aware of it can help her understand the other point of view better. No one on here can answer the question for @AG31. It is an internal thing, and only she can know what it is. It might not even be that she will know for certain.

* Is a black person racist when the use the N-word?

* Is a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom while her husband goes out and earns the household money a misogynist?

* I AG31 sexist for being a woman who doesn’t feel that rape should be a different degree or classification of violence?

 

[LadyLibido]

To preface my answers, I will start by clarifying that I am a cisgender woman.

1 - Yes

2 - Yes

3 - Yes, though the explanation is very simple. I always feel a resonance for titles and terms associated with women. Being without them makes me feel hollow, unseen. Being perceived as and referred to as a woman, makes me feel happy and fulfilled. That's really all there is to it.

4 - No, it does not align with societal expectations, so my sense of gender is entirely de-coupled from what is socially 'expected' of me. For that matter, my disconnect between my preferred ''''social role'''' and presentation is what made me explore being nonbinary for a bit, but when 'wearing' the nonbinary identity made me feel all different forms of unhappy and lost, it was clear that was not for me. My sense of womanhood is mostly of my own making, with my own motifs and themes. Many have referred to my mannerisms, behaviors, and form of dress, as ''''masculine'''' but to me, they are not, they are feminine. I don't expect society to change or for others to agree with me, that's just how I feel and how I perceive myself and my gender identity. If society were to change in any direction, I don't think I'd feel any differently, because I have paved my own path to begin with.