Curious about the whole training thing

[alice_underneath]

Wow, you guys have all offered really good things to think about, for both subs and Doms. The dungeon here has weekly demonstrations, bi-weekly sub meetings, and bi-weekly Dom meetings. They also have a novice demonstration party once a quarter to allow newbies to see what the dungeon is all about, try new things out with experienced Doms, and basically just get a feel for things. But I wondered what other ways new Doms were able to get real hands-on experience.

I like the idea of an experienced sub "training" a newbie Dom, I'm just not sure I would be cut out for that. It just goes against my nature to be the one taking the lead. I wonder how many other subs would feel strange taking the lead in that way. Is it just me?

Hi, BeachGurl.

With apologies for getting into the potentially divisive terminology thang..... it sounds to me as if you are talking about training a Top, not a Dom.

In my head..... and please do take this with a gigantic grain of salt, because my head has no formal BDSM qualifications whatsoever! ..... dominance (like charisma) is an extremely personal and individual thing. It has nothing to do with floggers or canes or ropes or anything that could even remotely be taught.

I would even add that dominance, as expressed by a single guy, will differ depending on his partner. The two will react to and feed on one another in a way that is as unique as a fingerprint.

Forget the toys for a moment, and ponder this. How could you possibly train someone to think or act like AngelicAssassin, or DVS, or RJ? You can't! And more importantly - why would you try?

An individual who tries to mimic another's persona, style, or charm will end up a pale imitation of the same.

If you look at things this way, perhaps it is easier to imagine yourself in that training role. You are not acting as a sub in the dungeon context. You are just a bottom. I don't know about you or anyone else, but to me there is a huge difference between the two.



Alice

 

[shy slave]

I like the idea of an experienced sub "training" a newbie Dom, I'm just not sure I would be cut out for that. It just goes against my nature to be the one taking the lead. I wonder how many other subs would feel strange taking the lead in that way. Is it just me?

My friend does not see it as a role nor as taking the lead.
She is showing them how to use implements correctly on a living, breathing sub.
She doenst do it for every newbie who comes along, those who are so full of their own self-importance and don't want to understand or learn are not safe to play with.

Its more about having a good time and helping someone expand their skills. She is great with people anyway. She is the only person who can see I am on the verge of tears and make me laugh instead.

I would not do what she does because I am not sure enough of my own abilities to help someone learn anything, nor do I have her inbuilt rader which tells her who to trust and who will use it as a reason to be abusive or disrespectful of the opportunity.

However, if Andante wanted me to do that; I would, with trepediation but I would. I would also see it as submitting to Andantes wishes not taking the lead with a Dom.

 

[RJMasters]

I'm going to sound like a fortune cookie.

It's like pointing to the proverbial picture of the vase and the faces and saying "It's a vase!" "It's a face!" and arguing.

Subs and doms share power. They both exist simultaneously. Some people only see one image and think the other is just a reflection, but what arises is equilibrium between partners. However, the willingness to submit in the first place is a huge power you choose to bestow. Inherent in that is the possibility of its withdrawal of cooperation or approval. The submissive is most true to their own nature. That's power.

Even getting full dominance and loss of power is done over a huge series of trust building exercises, and still, the submissive is held first of all by their own willingness to commit. That's power.

I couldn't agree and disagree more.

Unfortunately I would require a book to explain where I agree and where I disagree.

I think the shades of agreement and disagreement revolve around the differences of a bottom, submissive and slave. Starting at the bottom, there is a high level of agreement, as we move to submissive I agree less with what you said, but still a majority rings true. When we get to slave, I just flat out disagree.

When a master and a slave make that final step, all power to say no is transfered to the Master. The slave gives up that right. Does that mean that a choice is no longer made by the slave when submitting? No. A choice is always present in my opinion whenever an act of obedience or submission occurs, however, that choice must be understood within the context of giving up the right to say no.

A submissive and a Dom/Domme may acknowledge areas where the submissive retains certain power, such as limits, but safewords are not power based. They are a means of communication for the submissive to let their Dom/Domme know they cannot go any further either physically, emotionally or mentally. They are not there as a means of control(I will add IMO). Limits are based in control, safewords are based in communication. When a submissive takes the final step and gives themselves to the Dom/Domme, they give up all rights to say no except in those areas which are agreed upon and are given a way to communicate when they feel those areas are being infringed upon. Again, a choice is made when an act of obedience or submission occurs, but that choice needs to be seen within the context of the agreed upon areas. A submissive does not have the right to say no when it does not fall within one of those areas, they do not have that power because they gave it to thier Dom/Domme. If the dominant enters the relationship agreeing to share decision making power, that is of course their right. I am sure every person is different here, but as for me, I will agree to respect a person's limits and honor the safewords when communicated, but I will not share decision making power.

Bottoms of course retain the type of control which you have described. They can set limits and reserve the right(and the power that goes with that right) to stop or refuse.

It is true that the slave/submissive holds the power of the right to say no before commiting 100%. After that commitment is made, the use of the word no should not appear on the radar as long as the Dominant stays within the limits set and in the case of the slave, never. If the word no appears, then a dominant has every right to question the sincerity of the commitment made. Communication and punishment should be pursued to remedy the situation. If that fails, then perhaps releasing the submissive or slave is the right thing to do so they can reassess the level of submission they truly wish to live with and find a Dom/Domme who is willing to accept that level of submission.

And that is why I agree and disagree.

What were those numbers again?

 

[RJMasters]

Hi, BeachGurl.

With apologies for getting into the potentially divisive terminology thang..... it sounds to me as if you are talking about training a Top, not a Dom.

In my head..... and please do take this with a gigantic grain of salt, because my head has no formal BDSM qualifications whatsoever! ..... dominance (like charisma) is an extremely personal and individual thing. It has nothing to do with floggers or canes or ropes or anything that could even remotely be taught.

I would even add that dominance, as expressed by a single guy, will differ depending on his partner. The two will react to and feed on one another in a way that is as unique as a fingerprint.

Forget the toys for a moment, and ponder this. How could you possibly train someone to think or act like AngelicAssassin, or DVS, or RJ? You can't! And more importantly - why would you try?

An individual who tries to mimic another's persona, style, or charm will end up a pale imitation of the same.

If you look at things this way, perhaps it is easier to imagine yourself in that training role. You are not acting as a sub in the dungeon context. You are just a bottom. I don't know about you or anyone else, but to me there is a huge difference between the two.



Alice

Agreed that a differentation should be made between technique in the use of toys and such and the personification of what it means to be a Dominant.

That said, the single word which describes the other half of this coin is mentoring. If done right, it is not a copy cat process but sharing of wisdom, common sense and encouragement. A living resource of answers based upon truisms(is that even a word lol) and experiences.

So in my way of thinking...a submissive may train a dominant in many things and offer some forms of limited mentorshp. A dominant can train a submissive and offer a limited form of mentorship. A dominant is the best choice for mentoring another dominant just like a submissive is the best choice for mentoring another submissive.

At least that's how I see it. If BeachGurl's definition of hands-on experience is narrowed to only how to use sex toys, then mentorship would not really apply to the thread. If the definition includes all types of training, then I would say mentoring is definatly a way in which new Doms/Dommes can learn and grow.

 

[Recidiva]

I couldn't agree and disagree more.

Unfortunately I would require a book to explain where I agree and where I disagree.

I think the shades of agreement and disagreement revolve around the differences of a bottom, submissive and slave. Starting at the bottom, there is a high level of agreement, as we move to submissive I agree less with what you said, but still a majority rings true. When we get to slave, I just flat out disagree.

When a master and a slave make that final step, all power to say no is transfered to the Master. The slave gives up that right. Does that mean that a choice is no longer made by the slave when submitting? No. A choice is always present in my opinion whenever an act of obedience or submission occurs, however, that choice must be understood within the context of giving up the right to say no.

A submissive and a Dom/Domme may acknowledge areas where the submissive retains certain power, such as limits, but safewords are not power based. They are a means of communication for the submissive to let their Dom/Domme know they cannot go any further either physically, emotionally or mentally. They are not there as a means of control(I will add IMO). Limits are based in control, safewords are based in communication. When a submissive takes the final step and gives themselves to the Dom/Domme, they give up all rights to say no except in those areas which are agreed upon and are given a way to communicate when they feel those areas are being infringed upon. Again, a choice is made when an act of obedience or submission occurs, but that choice needs to be seen within the context of the agreed upon areas. A submissive does not have the right to say no when it does not fall within one of those areas, they do not have that power because they gave it to thier Dom/Domme. If the dominant enters the relationship agreeing to share decision making power, that is of course their right. I am sure every person is different here, but as for me, I will agree to respect a person's limits and honor the safewords when communicated, but I will not share decision making power.

Bottoms of course retain the type of control which you have described. They can set limits and reserve the right(and the power that goes with that right) to stop or refuse.

It is true that the slave/submissive holds the power of the right to say no before commiting 100%. After that commitment is made, the use of the word no should not appear on the radar as long as the Dominant stays within the limits set and in the case of the slave, never. If the word no appears, then a dominant has every right to question the sincerity of the commitment made. Communication and punishment should be pursued to remedy the situation. If that fails, then perhaps releasing the submissive or slave is the right thing to do so they can reassess the level of submission they truly wish to live with and find a Dom/Domme who is willing to accept that level of submission.

And that is why I agree and disagree.

What were those numbers again?

I think you deal in absolutes "what was said goes" and I deal in practicalities.

Sure, when people choose to "love, honor and cherish" forever and ever, they make that agreement, but statistics don't bear out that this happens always. It takes work on both sides to maintain an agreement.

I submit that the Dom must continue to provide what the submissive wants, as the submissive chose and agreed to, or the sub will leave. Regardless of agreements or "what they said"

A Dom who doesn't keep their side of the bargain or a sub that changes their attitude surely knows they have a choice, and just like those who choose divorce beause the loving, honoring and cherishing didn't quite work out as they envisioned, so the same happens when people change and their regular agreements are no longer satisfying to the individual.

A Dom has to meet a sub's specifications, and that's clear. Regardless of how much someone might be convinced that choice is removed, it isn't. What's really present is the illusion and agreement that choice is removed, which adds a permanent tension to the deal. Conflict being ritually set aside is still a conflict, suspended as long as conditions are met. But human nature bears out that conflict remains and that conflict will begin again as soon as the complex arrangements are not being fulfilled.

As to slavery, that's more often a commitment a person makes in order to "go one further" and challenge the self in extremes. They still have choices. The conflict they enjoy is denying themselves those choices as a test of self control. It's an act of will. And practicing that much will, you can't help but develop a strong one. It's simply directed inward, on the self, and you get help from someone else to do that. If that slave wakes up some day and the challenge doesn't appeal or they want a change, they will make that change.

The trick is maintaining the delicate balance where what you want stays "in bounds" and what you don't want is "out of bounds" but the fact that the rules are so strict and the bounds so clear, makes very clear it's a game and the people playing are in charge of the rules.

 

[John Doe]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

[RJMasters]

I think you deal in absolutes "what was said goes" and I deal in practicalities.

Sure, when people choose to "love, honor and cherish" forever and ever, they make that agreement, but statistics don't bear out that this happens always. It takes work on both sides to maintain an agreement.

I submit that the Dom must continue to provide what the submissive wants, as the submissive chose and agreed to, or the sub will leave. Regardless of agreements or "what they said"

A Dom who doesn't keep their side of the bargain or a sub that changes their attitude surely knows they have a choice, and just like those who choose divorce beause the loving, honoring and cherishing didn't quite work out as they envisioned, so the same happens when people change and their regular agreements are no longer satisfying to the individual.

A Dom has to meet a sub's specifications, and that's clear. Regardless of how much someone might be convinced that choice is removed, it isn't. What's really present is the illusion and agreement that choice is removed, which adds a permanent tension to the deal. Conflict being ritually set aside is still a conflict, suspended as long as conditions are met. But human nature bears out that conflict remains and that conflict will begin again as soon as the complex arrangements are not being fulfilled.

As to slavery, that's more often a commitment a person makes in order to "go one further" and challenge the self in extremes. They still have choices. The conflict they enjoy is denying themselves those choices as a test of self control. It's an act of will. And practicing that much will, you can't help but develop a strong one. It's simply directed inward, on the self, and you get help from someone else to do that. If that slave wakes up some day and the challenge doesn't appeal or they want a change, they will make that change.

The trick is maintaining the delicate balance where what you want stays "in bounds" and what you don't want is "out of bounds" but the fact that the rules are so strict and the bounds so clear, makes very clear it's a game and the people playing are in charge of the rules.

Lol you need some coffee or something.

Ok the only absolutes I am dealing in, is being absolutely right.

A Dom has to meet a sub's specifications, and that's clear.

And all this time I thought it was the other way around.

Regardless of how much someone might be convinced that choice is removed, it isn't.

Did I say choice was removed? hmmm nope, I don't think I did. Infact I went to great pains to explain how the submissive has power up till the time a final commitment is made to say no. Then I went on to say that choice is present in every act of submission or obedience. I only said that as part of their commitment, the submissive understands that they are giving up that power to say no. I also think I made it clear that in many relationship, limits are set up which can vary from couple to couple.

I use to buy into all this hoop jumping. I don't any more. I hear it said over and over and over again how Doms have to be this or have to be that in order to meet a submissive specifications. Rot and rubbish. All I have to do is be who I am and be comforatable with who I am and I am perfectly fine if I don't meet up with a submissive's specifications. I'll live.

I will grant you that in my post I did take a hard and absolute line about the right of saying no. You know why? Because it is clear that whole concept of submission has become a thing of convience in the thinking of so many rather than a "Practical and Realistic" expression of a genuine desire and nature. I don't like how its being repackaged and sold. It is that more than what you suggest which is the real cause of relationships not lasting. Dom/Dommes are not always the ones who are false or fall short of what they claim to be.

I am sick of this watered-down submission crap dressed up in disguise.

And I think your comment of -

As to slavery, that's more often a commitment a person makes in order to "go one further" and challenge the self in extremes.

Was bit simplistic and shallow.

Your right about one thing though, submissives/slaves do have power, but it has little to do with what your talking about.

 

[Recidiva]

Lol you need some coffee or something.

Ok the only absolutes I am dealing in, is being absolutely right.

And all this time I thought it was the other way around.

Did I say choice was removed? hmmm nope, I don't think I did. Infact I went to great pains to explain how the submissive has power up till the time a final commitment is made to say no. Then I went on to say that choice is present in every act of submission or obedience. I only said that as part of their commitment, the submissive understands that they are giving up that power to say no. I also think I made it clear that in many relationship, limits are set up which can vary from couple to couple.

I use to buy into all this hoop jumping. I don't any more. I hear it said over and over and over again how Doms have to be this or have to be that in order to meet a submissive specifications. Rot and rubbish. All I have to do is be who I am and be comforatable with who I am and I am perfectly fine if I don't meet up with a submissive's specifications. I'll live.

I will grant you that in my post I did take a hard and absolute line about the right of saying no. You know why? Because it is clear that whole concept of submission has become a thing of convience in the thinking of so many rather than a "Practical and Realistic" expression of a genuine desire and nature. I don't like how its being repackaged and sold. It is that more than what you suggest which is the real cause of relationships not lasting. Dom/Dommes are not always the ones who are false or fall short of what they claim to be.

I am sick of this watered-down submission crap dressed up in disguise.

And I think your comment of -

Was bit simplistic and shallow.

Your right about one thing though, submissives/slaves do have power, but it has little to do with what your talking about.

Fine. If you disagree with me you're never getting your numbers.

However it is defined, they have it.

 

[RJMasters]

Fine. If you disagree with me you're never getting your numbers.

However it is defined, they have it.

Oh now your just playing dirty...I want my numbers...or I'm tlaking to your hubby about you holding out on me. lol...that sounds so wrong but you know I willl do it.

By the way, did he survive his first day on lit?



Sry for the mini hijack

 

[landcruisergal]

Back onto the topic. I started with my pup a year ago as a total newbie dom. And coming from a totally sub background, found it hard. However, he was eager to submit, and had a high tolerance to pain. I made a lot of errors, mainly due to his initial difficulty with communication,as much as my lack of hands on skills.
I knew I had little experience, was sure to take things slow, sometimes to both our frustration.Trust and practise, learning to read his non verbal cues and demanding feedback on occassion, and slowly my confidence grew as did his trust in me. He never coded and openly admitted he probably never would, and I found this daunting. However we had an intense year and a lot of fun.
I released him in February, due to his family commitments. But he still says I was the best mistress he's had and if circumstances change he will crawl back to my feet. ( granted he only had 3 before me and they were short term). But I must have been doing something right. *shrugs*
(wow its been a while since I posted here.)

 

[BeachGurl2]

Okay, I have several things I want to say in response to RJ and Reci but I have to get my butt in gear and get to work. I'll be back later to respond.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh now your just playing dirty...I want my numbers...or I'm tlaking to your hubby about you holding out on me. lol...that sounds so wrong but you know I willl do it.

By the way, did he survive his first day on lit?



Sry for the mini hijack

No, you were rude.

*nods*

You're welcome to take it up with him, as long as I get to watch

He certainly did, he's off arguing politics in the AH, I think.

 

[RJMasters]

No, you were rude.

*nods*

You're welcome to take it up with him, as long as I get to watch

He certainly did, he's off arguing politics in the AH, I think.

Ok I was rude. But that's the first thing you been right about all day.

Now I need coffee. And I think we are in trouble with BeachGurl2 for hijacking this cool thread. I am gonna go wallow in the muck and mire in the GB, I don't think its possible to hyjack anything over there.

 

[John Doe]

Ok I was rude. But that's the first thing you been right about all day.

Now I need coffee. And I think we are in trouble with BeachGurl2 for hijacking this cool thread. I am gonna go wallow in the muck and mire in the GB, I don't think its possible to hyjack anything over there.

Fuck you.

 

[alice_underneath]

Agreed that a differentation should be made between technique in the use of toys and such and the personification of what it means to be a Dominant.

That said, the single word which describes the other half of this coin is mentoring. If done right, it is not a copy cat process but sharing of wisdom, common sense and encouragement. A living resource of answers based upon truisms(is that even a word lol) and experiences.

The mentor role you describe here sounds like a very close friend or, more formally, something like a career advisor. Someone to answer your questions, bounce ideas off of, commiserate with, etc.

I realize that we are talking semantics here, but to me offering friendship and advice is not the same thing as training.

A trainer corrects behavior and teaches particular skills according to his/her specialized view of the way something should be done. That's different than offering suggestions and providing generalized wisdom and encouragement.

Speaking of semantics..... yes, truism is a word. It means: a self-evident truth.

At least that's how I see it. If BeachGurl's definition of hands-on experience is narrowed to only how to use sex toys, then mentorship would not really apply to the thread.

BeachGurl has written two posts on this thread. From her first -

Frankly, I would be very hesitant to stick my rear end out for a newbie Dom to start flogging away on it. Just exactly how are newbie Doms trained so that they know what they are doing and they don't truly harm someone? Not everyone can afford to go to a professional for lessons in Domliness. How, then, does this work in the real world for them? Do they hook up with a knowledgable sub who "trains" them? I'd love to see some advice from experienced Doms to newbie Doms with suggestions for ways to learn about toys and how to use them safely.

From her second -

Wow, you guys have all offered really good things to think about, for both subs and Doms. The dungeon here has weekly demonstrations, bi-weekly sub meetings, and bi-weekly Dom meetings. They also have a novice demonstration party once a quarter to allow newbies to see what the dungeon is all about, try new things out with experienced Doms, and basically just get a feel for things. But I wondered what other ways new Doms were able to get real hands-on experience.

That sounds to me as if she is focusing on training in the use of sex toys (at least, within the context of this particular thread).

Alice

 

[RJMasters]

The mentor role you describe here sounds like a very close friend or, more formally, something like a career advisor. Someone to answer your questions, bounce ideas off of, commiserate with, etc.

I realize that we are talking semantics here, but to me offering friendship and advice is not the same thing as training.

A trainer corrects behavior and teaches particular skills according to his/her specialized view of the way something should be done. That's different than offering suggestions and providing generalized wisdom and encouragement.

Speaking of semantics..... yes, truism is a word. It means: a self-evident truth.

BeachGurl has written two posts on this thread. From her first -

From her second -

That sounds to me as if she is focusing on training in the use of sex toys (at least, within the context of this particular thread).

Alice

I'll agree with that and that's my final answer.

 

[Netzach]

Hi, BeachGurl.

With apologies for getting into the potentially divisive terminology thang..... it sounds to me as if you are talking about training a Top, not a Dom.

In my head..... and please do take this with a gigantic grain of salt, because my head has no formal BDSM qualifications whatsoever! ..... dominance (like charisma) is an extremely personal and individual thing. It has nothing to do with floggers or canes or ropes or anything that could even remotely be taught.

I would even add that dominance, as expressed by a single guy, will differ depending on his partner. The two will react to and feed on one another in a way that is as unique as a fingerprint.

Forget the toys for a moment, and ponder this. How could you possibly train someone to think or act like AngelicAssassin, or DVS, or RJ? You can't! And more importantly - why would you try?

An individual who tries to mimic another's persona, style, or charm will end up a pale imitation of the same.

If you look at things this way, perhaps it is easier to imagine yourself in that training role. You are not acting as a sub in the dungeon context. You are just a bottom. I don't know about you or anyone else, but to me there is a huge difference between the two.



Alice

Do you seriously think that we spring from the womb with the desire to control and the ability to control? A formed sexuality?

I guess maybe some people might. People say they see "natural alphas" in the chaos of groups of learning-to-be-socialized children, but I think they are projecting into the mayhem. Sure, you have some kids who are always rejects every day, and you have others who are never rejects, but who's in charge changes a lot and is very contextual.

Add to that the fact that the kid in charge of his playmates's doings is just as likely to grow up wanting a beating from the likes of me as not. And the omega reject may *well* grow up to be...well -- me!

So yeah, I think it *is* a mixture of programming and stuff we pick up somewhere along the way. And just like you will have people who knew they were "different" at age 10 and people who finally own and recognize a gay identity in their 40's - you are going to find a wide variety as to how inherent and how learned this thing is.

 

[alice_underneath]

Do you seriously think that we spring from the womb with the desire to control and the ability to control? A formed sexuality?

I guess maybe some people might. People say they see "natural alphas" in the chaos of groups of learning-to-be-socialized children, but I think they are projecting into the mayhem. Sure, you have some kids who are always rejects every day, and you have others who are never rejects, but who's in charge changes a lot and is very contextual.

Add to that the fact that the kid in charge of his playmates's doings is just as likely to grow up wanting a beating from the likes of me as not. And the omega reject may *well* grow up to be...well -- me!

So yeah, I think it *is* a mixture of programming and stuff we pick up somewhere along the way. And just like you will have people who knew they were "different" at age 10 and people who finally own and recognize a gay identity in their 40's - you are going to find a wide variety as to how inherent and how learned this thing is.

I would never discount the import of the second factor in the nature/nurture debate - particularly as it relates to human sexuality.

My comments to BeachGurl were made in reference to formal training. People talk about Dom training all the time on this Board, but I have yet to read an explanation of how you would formally train someone in areas that have nothing to do with sex toys or specific protocols (e.g., Gorean language/poses/whatever).

A guy could graduate from Crop, Flogger, and Wax School with a summa cum laude degree. But will that make me want to kneel at his feet? Nope. The qualities that would make me submit to a guy can best be summarized as strength of character and charisma.

Note: the type of character & charisma that appeal to me might do nothing for another woman, or turn a third off completely (and that's part of my point here.)

These qualities are partly innate, and partly learned through life experiences. But you don't enroll in Character Class or Charisma School to learn these things.

As for domming in general (i.e., outside the bedroom or the dungeon), I would say that this too is learned through general life experiences or, as you said - "stuff we pick up somewhere along the way." But that's not formal Dom training..... which is really my point.

 

[WriterDom]

A guy could graduate from Crop, Flogger, and Wax School with a summa cum laude degree. But will that make me want to kneel at his feet? Nope. The qualities that would make me submit to a guy can best be summarized as strength of character and charisma.

.

That's a good point. Beachgurl might feel safe with Summa but would she enjoy the experience?

 

[BeachGurl2]

Agreed that a differentation should be made between technique in the use of toys and such and the personification of what it means to be a Dominant.

So in my way of thinking...a submissive may train a dominant in many things and offer some forms of limited mentorshp. A dominant can train a submissive and offer a limited form of mentorship. A dominant is the best choice for mentoring another dominant just like a submissive is the best choice for mentoring another submissive.

At least that's how I see it. If BeachGurl's definition of hands-on experience is narrowed to only how to use sex toys, then mentorship would not really apply to the thread. If the definition includes all types of training, then I would say mentoring is definatly a way in which new Doms/Dommes can learn and grow.

My original post was about both, but I guess I didn't make that very clear, did I? As a submissive, I don't see my "job" as one of training or mentorship. And while I can certainly express what I am looking for in a Dominant to someone, I don't think I'm the right person to "teach" them how to do that, either with the toys or with their life. I agree that mentoring should come from someone like minded rather than someone opposite minded. I don't see how I can be completely effective in "training" a Dominant, although I can probably offer advice from a sub's perspective.

I think the shades of agreement and disagreement revolve around the differences of a bottom, submissive and slave. Starting at the bottom, there is a high level of agreement, as we move to submissive I agree less with what you said, but still a majority rings true. When we get to slave, I just flat out disagree.

When a master and a slave make that final step, all power to say no is transfered to the Master. The slave gives up that right. Does that mean that a choice is no longer made by the slave when submitting? No. A choice is always present in my opinion whenever an act of obedience or submission occurs, however, that choice must be understood within the context of giving up the right to say no.

I do agree that the choice remains, no matter the degree of submission. Whatever you call it, the sub always retains the power to walk away. However, once the decision is made to submit fully, the choice to say no within the context determined by the couple is then gone. That said, I don't think that is something that happens overnight or just because you're submissive. I think it is a process that develops over time as trust and respect develop on BOTH sides. Not only does the submissive have to trust and respect the Dominant, the Dominant also must trust and respect the submissive. If these elements are missing or weak on one side or the other, there will never be a true power exchange.

Additionally, I think that real life has to come into it as well. If there are children involved, you can't always stop and ask permission before making a decision regarding them. If the toilet springs a leak, I'm not going to wait around for permission to take care of it. If I do something wrong, then the context must be taken into account before punishment occurs. So even within a TPE relationship, there has to be room for some decisions/actions to be made without fear of consequences.

A Dom has to meet a sub's specifications, and that's clear. Regardless of how much someone might be convinced that choice is removed, it isn't. What's really present is the illusion and agreement that choice is removed, which adds a permanent tension to the deal. Conflict being ritually set aside is still a conflict, suspended as long as conditions are met. But human nature bears out that conflict remains and that conflict will begin again as soon as the complex arrangements are not being fulfilled.

As to slavery, that's more often a commitment a person makes in order to "go one further" and challenge the self in extremes. They still have choices. The conflict they enjoy is denying themselves those choices as a test of self control. It's an act of will. And practicing that much will, you can't help but develop a strong one. It's simply directed inward, on the self, and you get help from someone else to do that. If that slave wakes up some day and the challenge doesn't appeal or they want a change, they will make that change.

The trick is maintaining the delicate balance where what you want stays "in bounds" and what you don't want is "out of bounds" but the fact that the rules are so strict and the bounds so clear, makes very clear it's a game and the people playing are in charge of the rules.

I have to take exception here. I don’t believe it’s a game. At least not for me. It’s who I am inside. The rules don’t change for me. Yes, sometimes, as I said, real life forces compromise, but that’s inherent in any relationship. I think those who don’t take into account real life are the ones who ultimately change the rules midstream and end up with rotten relationships. As long as you have open communication and realistic expectations of each other, I don’t see where there has to be conflict. I see people who come into this lifestyle with lofty aspirations, a fairytale view of the way things will be, and they are often disappointed to discover that it’s not as pretty as they expected. Real life has a way of getting in whether you want it to or not. PMS, car payments, grocery shopping, and taking kids to school all have a way of keeping the fantasy down to a minimum.

I use to buy into all this hoop jumping. I don't any more. I hear it said over and over and over again how Doms have to be this or have to be that in order to meet a submissive specifications. Rot and rubbish. All I have to do is be who I am and be comforatable with who I am and I am perfectly fine if I don't meet up with a submissive's specifications. I'll live.

I will grant you that in my post I did take a hard and absolute line about the right of saying no. You know why? Because it is clear that whole concept of submission has become a thing of convience in the thinking of so many rather than a "Practical and Realistic" expression of a genuine desire and nature. I don't like how its being repackaged and sold. It is that more than what you suggest which is the real cause of relationships not lasting. Dom/Dommes are not always the ones who are false or fall short of what they claim to be.

I think that rather than view it as meeting a sub’s specifications, the way I view it is that I know who I am and what my needs are. It’s not about my specifications, but about what and who I need to feel complete. I’m much more apt to be drawn to someone who is confident in himself than someone who is playing a role because they believe that is what I want.

As I said above, I think too many people come into this lifestyle with rose colored glasses on – Doms who think that they’ll get a girl to boss around and subs who think that they’ll get a big strong man to take care of them. They twist and mold things until it no longer resembles what D/s should be about, in my book. I think that is what you are alluding to, RJ. This fairytale vision of what things will be makes it more difficult to cut through to the person beneath. I think that makes it sometimes harder than in a vanilla relationship because the false expectations often don’t meet the reality. On both sides.

That sounds to me as if she is focusing on training in the use of sex toys (at least, within the context of this particular thread).

While I know that’s how it sounded, Alice, I really was talking about all aspects, not just the Top aspects. I was comparing it to the way people talk about training a sub. It had been bothering me because I’ve seen so many new Doms who admit to having little or no experience at all. I really wondered what the options were for full training for them. I just didn’t express myself very well. J

That's a good point. Beachgurl might feel safe with Summa but would she enjoy the experience?

And that’s one of the points I think I missed making. It’s not just about wielding a flogger correctly. I can go to the dungeon and have any one of several Tops/Doms flog me well. But that’s a different experience entirely to giving my complete submission to someone. And that’s not me submitting, that’s me being a bottom. Big difference in my book.

And now that I’ve written a novel in response to this great hijack, I think I’ll go back and peruse the other posts that I’ve missed while I was away working and commuting.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by salome5678
The sub is always in control .

WOW when did that happen?


She's right, the sub is in control. A DOM can only take what she gives to him. Its funny because it takes soo much will to give that over, but if you think about it. You always have the power to stop it. You allow him/her to bind you and they control your body as far as you will let them.

A DOM can push you to your limits but it is always the subs limit. So who has control here? So why do it, the power behind such a gift. Assuming the sub has a thread of self-esteem she will have to love and trust his/her Dom/me more than the average person trusts their spouse or parents.

I'm just not sure I buy that. My "limits", I've learned, are dictated by the level of trust and respect I have for my Dom. And because of that, I've been taken well beyond what I thought were hard limits for me. BECAUSE I relinqueshed control completely. But I'm not just talking about play time. I'm talking across the board. I don't believe the sub is in control, not if they have truly submitted. Sure, anyone can walk away. You can do that in any relationship. And yes, you have safe words, but those aren't about control, in my opinion. Safe words are about getting to the point that you can't take anymore, either emotionally or physically.

And Doms have limits, too. One of my limits is cutting and/or needle play. Just can't do it. But I am interested in seeing others who do enjoy this kind of play. My Dom has a very hard limit of cutting. He can't even watch it. So when a demonstration came locally of cutting, I really wanted to go see it. But I wasn't allowed because it was one of his very hard limits and he wouldn't let me go without him. So it's not always about the sub's limits.

I think rather than looking at it as retaining control, I look at it this way. Everyone has different levels on different days of what they can take or do. Ultimately, it's still a relationship. While the Dom retains the power, that doesn't mean that he must wield that power at all times. If he truly cares about his sub, he learns to read her well. In that kind of relationship, he isn't going to demand of her more than she can give in that moment. He knows the difference between "I just don't feel like it" and "I really can't go there right now".

I believe the illusion of a sub retaining control is more about Top/bottom than D/s. When I bottom, of course I retain control because it's about what I want to take in that scene. But when I submit to ONE Dom, there is no control retained on my end. Once my full submission is given, it's given wholly to that one person. I don't get the option of deciding that today I'm not going to submit but maybe I will tomorrow. Maybe I'm way off the mark here, but that's the way I see it.

 

[RJMasters]

BeachGurl,

I agree with what you said in response to my posts.

I certainly was taking a hardline when I made them.

You stated it in a much better way than I did when you said that after the decision to fully submit has been made and 'no" is taken out of the picture, there is still a process which then is pursued. Being in a relationship for 20 years, I know a thing or two about real life and what goes on. It isn't ever cut and dry. But that shouldn't be used as a means to repackage meaning or what is being commited to. I know you understand that from what you posted.

I am certainly not a control freak and when I said, "I will not share decision making power" I certainly didn't mean that applys to the normal ebb and flow of life. If I came home and the house was flooded because the toliet sprang a leak and she didn't do anything about it because she thought she couldn't make a decision, i'd prolly beat her ass for being that stupid. lol. just sayin.

You are dead right in what it was that I was alluding to.


as to the main topic of your thread...I would just like to say, now that you did make it clear that your were not just talking about sex toys when yo mentioned hands-on training.

I think anyone who is new to this needs to keep and open mind and have an attitude of, "I want to learn". Learning can come from many different sources and be of various types. Book knowledge and hands-on are two examples in how people can learn, and both have a value.

Here are some ways in which new Doms can learn. Not all are mandatory and good or bad is relative for each one.

- Learn on your own as you go
- Read websites
- Read books
- Join clubs or groups (example: munches)
- Participate in discussions
- Go to held events
- Find a local dungeon and particpate
- Forums such as Lit
- Training classes for specific use of certain items
- Serving under a Dom/me for a period of time - Apprenticeship/Sponsered
- Mentoring
- An experienced submissive who is willing to do this

I think the goal is to apply the knowledge one learns, and by that I mean live it.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I think anyone who is new to this needs to keep and open mind and have an attitude of, "I want to learn". Learning can come from many different sources and be of various types. Book knowledge and hands-on are two examples in how people can learn, and both have a value.

I think the sad thing is that many newbies don't have an open mind. They've already figured it all out and think they have all the answers. The ones who truly want to learn and grow are there, I've seen them on both sides of the spectrum. But I think there are many more who look at it as a game. It's too bad that people will probably get hurt along the way.

 

[RJMasters]

I think the sad thing is that many newbies don't have an open mind. They've already figured it all out and think they have all the answers. The ones who truly want to learn and grow are there, I've seen them on both sides of the spectrum. But I think there are many more who look at it as a game. It's too bad that people will probably get hurt along the way.

I drank what?

 

[BeachGurl2]

I drank what?

I think the better question is, you're drinking what?