Dealing with changing group dynamics

[SweetErika]

Same group, different issue.

Our September meeting was yesterday. The host, actually a very good friend of mine, put together a wonderful late/lite lunch. The discussion was a good one as well. Things went well, except for one issue.

My friend has a dog. A two-year-old (spayed) female Black Lab with, if the tongue's any indication, some Chow mixed in. The dog is very, very jumpy. Definitely a one-family dog.

We all know from past experience not to approach or try to pet the dog, but yesterday was worse than usual. Every time we'd shift position or make a sudden movement, the dog would jump up and start growling and snapping. At one point, she wouldn't let Ms. CL (who was about 45 minutes late, BTW) go into the dining room.

My friend was apologetic, but she explained that the dog would make too much noise if she were confined to her crate. It's her house and her dog, so I understand that she has the right to do what she wants, but, honestly, we were all a little nervous. Hell, I was afraid that someone might get bitten, and I'm generally not afraid of dogs.

We probably won't have to go back to her house for at least another six months. In the meantime, how might we gently tell our friend that her dog scares the hell out of us without offending her or sounding like we're making unreasonable demands?

Maybe there's something you can suggest now that you have the puppies. Perhaps you could tell her you're considering obedience class in a the coming weeks/months, and suggest it as an activity you could do together since she's mentioned problems with her dog?

 

[Guest]

 

[silverwhisper]

all hail erika's superior tact-fu!

i can't think of anything better than what she's suggested: reminds her of the issue in a non-threatening, non-confrontational way and suggests a course for addressing it. that's pretty damned good stuff, IMHO.

ed

 

[Ezzy]

The Viszla can be a barker when we leave the house; sometimes we put a muzzle (made out of nylon mesh or something like that) and it actually helps him settle down and relax. Some people don't like to use them, but for ours it keeps him from spazzing out.

The use of a muzzle would be a good way to go, at least then you can be assured that even though they may get jumped on they are not going to end up bitten.

You might find details of some dog bites and what the vets recommend the use of muzzles. There must be lots out there.

 

[Guest]

 

[Eilan]

It seems to me that your friend is taking a risk by not doing something that keeps her guests safe.

My husband has already said that if the dog bites me, then my friend won't have a dog anymore. I don't know how serious he is about that.

I guess I'm worried that, because of a certain member's behavior, I'll sound too demanding. On the one hand, I don't want to tell my friend what to do with her pet in her home. However, it's a little unnerving to spend several hours at someone's house with a large dog growling at me every time I move. My friend doesn't want to put her dog in its crate, but I don't think that doing so for a couple of hours is a big deal. That's what I'd do if our puppies were full-time indoor puppies.

I'm feeling like such a waffling wuss right now.

 

[Guest]

 

[Eilan]

I can see how it might be a difficult situation. But I would be thinking safety first.

Aggressive dogs growl because that is their nature or that is what they have been trained to do. Dogs that are not usually aggressive growl because they feel threatened. Did you happen to notice if the hair on it's back was standing up? This can happen when a dog is scared.

It might just be time to use those great communication skills you have.

Good luck.

My friend got this dog when she was about 6-9 months old; she'd been dumped near a housing development, and one of the residents contacted her about taking the dog. Judging from the dog's age at the time, she was likely someone's Christmas present, but her owners got rid of her when she got bigger and started being too much to handle. I don't know if there's abuse or anything in the dog's background. I DO know that my friend has treated her VERY well, particularly now that her youngest child is off to college and the house is otherwise empty.

I'm thinking that the next book group meeting at her house is in March.

 

[Guest]

 

[Quoll]

Perhaps this could be the next topic under discussion.

Book

It sounds a bit like the dog is unsure of it's place in the pecking order, it often happens with animals that are somewhat spoilt. Your group could well be seen as a threat to the dogs position in the pack especially if it sees itself as no:1 or no:2.

 

[Eilan]

Just thought I'd provide a little update:

For the past few months, things had been going smoothly. We'd been communicating fairly well, and even if we didn't always come to a 100% agreement on things, we were at least giving everyone the opportunity to express an opinion.

Today, Ms. CL was, as usual, chronically late, so we started the meeting without her. She's been at least 30 minutes late to every meeting that we've over the past few months. Lateness is an issue in most aspects of her life, and we can't change that. If she eventually shows up, great. If not, life goes on.

Ms. AR had been very quiet lately, but she was in prime form today. She changed seats two times. The first chair wasn't comfortable (not sure why), and in the second chair, the sun got in her eyes, even with the blinds drawn. Then, after the blinds were drawn she complained that the room was too dark, even with the lamp on. The ice for the iced tea wasn't cold enough. The dessert that our host had fixed was unacceptable to her; she insisted that the host find her something else dessert-y to eat. (Never mind that the last time we went to her house we very politely ate the miniature cinderblocks that she tried to pass off as chocolate cake.) Needless to say, today's host was a little ticked off. I wouldn't be surprised to find a rant in my inbox fairly soon.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[EJFan]

Ms. AR had been very quiet lately, but she was in prime form today. She changed seats two times. The first chair wasn't comfortable (not sure why), and in the second chair, the sun got in her eyes, even with the blinds drawn. Then, after the blinds were drawn she complained that the room was too dark, even with the lamp on. The ice for the iced tea wasn't cold enough. The dessert that our host had fixed was unacceptable to her; she insisted that the host find her something else dessert-y to eat. (Never mind that the last time we went to her house we very politely ate the miniature cinderblocks that she tried to pass off as chocolate cake.) Needless to say, today's host was a little ticked off. I wouldn't be surprised to find a rant in my inbox fairly soon.

i had no idea my grandmother was in your group.

 

[SweetErika]

The dessert that our host had fixed was unacceptable to her; she insisted that the host find her something else dessert-y to eat. (Never mind that the last time we went to her house we very politely ate the miniature cinderblocks that she tried to pass off as chocolate cake.) Needless to say, today's host was a little ticked off. I wouldn't be surprised to find a rant in my inbox fairly soon.

That goes beyond anal retentive...a fucking rude bitch is more like it! I'd be afraid of what might come out of my mouth in that situation, Eilan, and admire you and the others for being far nicer than I am!

 

[eudaemonia]

What Erika said!

I'm afriad my internal editor might just come unhinged in such a situation. I'll only take so much of that nonsense before I will speak up.

Actually, I'd probably take Ms. AR aside and say something to her about her behavior in a very on-the-level way. Hell, if I were the group leader, I'd probably ask her to not come back. Seriously. I've done this once in a philosophy discussion group. The group dynamics went back to "normal" (read, fun) once I got rid of the drunk@ss bozo.

Just my $.02.

 

[Quoll]

How the fuck can ice not be cold enough?
As much as I will do almost anything to avoid conflict I don't think I coud have let that go without saying some sort of smartarseitude, probably to the detriment of the whole group.
Seriously she needs a short sharp blow to the back of the head.
Next time either use dry ice or freeze the whole thing..." Here you go dear, is that cold enough for you ya stoopid iggerant bitch "

 

[silverwhisper]

would someone please, for the love of pete, hurt this woman's feelings severely? if she's sufficiently offended, she won't return.

ed

 

[Eilan]

would someone please, for the love of pete, hurt this woman's feelings severely? if she's sufficiently offended, she won't return.

See, that's the thing. She cries really easily. Once, for example, she had a bladder infection, and when she went to her doctor and he was behind schedule, then she burst into tears in front of the staff--she actually admitted that to us! And her mom died last month, so everyone was tiptoeing around her anyway. Even if we were to be nice about it, she'd probably still cry.

I'd love to have the cajones (or ovaries, as it were) to tell her that she's a rude cunt, but actually making her cry wouldn't sit too well on my conscience, and if I were pissed enough to tell her off, I'd be crying, too. When our host was in the kitchen grumbling, one of the other members was sticking up for her, saying, "Well, she can't eat certain things." Believe me, after 2+ years, everyone understands and respects that.

Perhaps I could get my husband to piss her off in exchange for sexual favors?

March will be a fun month. We're reading Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim by David Sedaris, and she's already made it clear that she's read Sedaris in the past and finds him to be offensive. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[bobsgirl]

See, that's the thing. She cries really easily. Once, for example, she had a bladder infection, and when she went to her doctor and he was behind schedule, then she burst into tears in front of the staff--she actually admitted that to us! And her mom died last month, so everyone was tiptoeing around her anyway. Even if we were to be nice about it, she'd probably still cry.

I'd love to have the cajones (or ovaries, as it were) to tell her that she's a rude cunt, but actually making her cry wouldn't sit too well on my conscience, and if I were pissed enough to tell her off, I'd be crying, too. When our host was in the kitchen grumbling, one of the other members was sticking up for her, saying, "Well, she can't eat certain things." Believe me, after 2+ years, everyone understands and respects that.

Perhaps I could get my husband to piss her off in exchange for sexual favors?

March will be a fun month. We're reading Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim by David Sedaris, and she's already made it clear that she's read Sedaris in the past and finds him to be offensive. I'm looking forward to it.

You're a crier too, huh? I do that every damn time I get really angry. The tears start, and then it's all over. You can't have a really good fight if you're in tears. Very frustrating.

 

[Eilan]

You're a crier too, huh? I do that every damn time I get really angry. The tears start, and then it's all over. You can't have a really good fight if you're in tears. Very frustrating.

Exactly. And when I'm that pissed, not only am I crying, but I'm pretty damned inarticulate as well.

Perhaps a letter would be one way to go?

 

[manofsteel52]

See, that's the thing. She cries really easily. Once, for example, she had a bladder infection, and when she went to her doctor and he was behind schedule, then she burst into tears in front of the staff--she actually admitted that to us! And her mom died last month, so everyone was tiptoeing around her anyway. Even if we were to be nice about it, she'd probably still cry.

I'd love to have the cajones (or ovaries, as it were) to tell her that she's a rude cunt, but actually making her cry wouldn't sit too well on my conscience, and if I were pissed enough to tell her off, I'd be crying, too. When our host was in the kitchen grumbling, one of the other members was sticking up for her, saying, "Well, she can't eat certain things." Believe me, after 2+ years, everyone understands and respects that.

Perhaps I could get my husband to piss her off in exchange for sexual favors?

March will be a fun month. We're reading Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim by David Sedaris, and she's already made it clear that she's read Sedaris in the past and finds him to be offensive. I'm looking forward to it.

I know that having to deal with all this must be frustrating as hell. However, I've looked in on this thread from time to time as I browse the boards and today it came to me. Mrs Bucket or Bouquet if you will from theBritish sitcom "Keeping up appearances"

 

[SweetErika]

Is it possible crying is a tactic to get out of things, Eilan? Perhaps she's not so sensitive, she's just learned to be a good victim.

I'm a crier, too, but it's true sensitivity. But you know that friend I had? She'd pull out the tears to deflect the true issue, garner sympathy, make others the bad guy, and (I think) to control/make others fear and avoid anything that might upset her. I found letters can be very effective to deal with that though, whether the crying's due to true sensitivity or a technique.

 

[Eilan]

Is it possible crying is a tactic to get out of things, Eilan? Perhaps she's not so sensitive, she's just learned to be a good victim.

I'm a crier, too, but it's true sensitivity. But you know that friend I had? She'd pull out the tears to deflect the true issue, garner sympathy, make others the bad guy, and (I think) to control/make others fear and avoid anything that might upset her. I found letters can be very effective to deal with that though, whether the crying's due to true sensitivity or a technique.

Ya know, I never thought of it that way. That gives my friend and me something to discuss over dinner tomorrow.

Once a week four of the six book group members (sans Ms. CL and Ms. AR) get together for dinner. I'm not sure who's coming tomorrow night.

 

[bobsgirl]

Is it possible crying is a tactic to get out of things, Eilan? Perhaps she's not so sensitive, she's just learned to be a good victim.

I'm a crier, too, but it's true sensitivity. But you know that friend I had? She'd pull out the tears to deflect the true issue, garner sympathy, make others the bad guy, and (I think) to control/make others fear and avoid anything that might upset her. I found letters can be very effective to deal with that though, whether the crying's due to true sensitivity or a technique.

I think a letter's a good idea too. Whoever wrote it could say they wanted to spare her the embarrassment of bringing this up to the whole group, or something like that. If she has such delicate sensitivities, which I doubt, she'll appreciate the discretion. She sounds like a world-class manipulator to me.

 

[silverwhisper]

i don't like the letter idea, mainly b/c you'll give her ammo for histrionics, and i don't believe you'd find that particular ramification fun, eilan.

erika makes a truly superb point, i think.

ed

 

[Guest]