Difference between subs and slaves

[ataxia.girl]

As long as it's consensual I agree. Sometimes though it's consensual, but it's not. I know that probably doesn't make sense..but to me and some of the other posters here, I'm sure it will. I've been in a relationship where I was ignored for months at a time. Put up on a shelf for when he wanted to talk to me. Come back down to meet his needs, and be put back down again. It was consensual because I let him do it to me..but God how it tore me apart. And he knew it tore me apart. And not in any way that can be thought of as good or good for me.

i have experience this, perhaps not for months but for weeks certainly and was not good.

Sometimes tho being in love is like a form of slavery. i read an essay once in someone's profile i cannot find now on Alt that spoke to this. To paraphrase he said any woman who would do anything to keep the relationship with the man she loved was a slave. i think there is some truth in that.

 

[nh23]

I would have called you a slave too, darlin.

And I know slaves that top their owners when told to. One of the sites I link to as a tutorial site in my ropeworks thread is run by a slave that learned ropework because his Mistress enjoys being tied up, and she trusts him to do it properly. He does beautiful work, and I love his site.

Psstt Bunny.. I stuck needles in Homburg's back once.

 

[BiBunny]

Psstt Bunny.. I stuck needles in Homburg's back once.

YOU TOPPY WHORE!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE NOT A SLAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. I couldn't resist. *Twitch*

 

[nh23]

YOU TOPPY WHORE!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE NOT A SLAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. I couldn't resist. *Twitch*

Shhh...that's our secret. And it's service top. I swear chickie you really want me to lose the decoder ring..you know the pretty one that glows in the dark.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

well we were not speaking of legalities, we were speaking of what is possible and what is not. many Masters take illegal measures in order to maintain control of their property or to keep that property tied to them. there are slaves within the lifestyle who are bound or caged for days or weeks at a time, cannot open a window much less leave. as far as consent, within this lifestyle we consent to be slaves, to living under the will of another. and there are many (Daddy and i included) who do not believe that this consent can ever be taken back, or is relevant after that final choice.

but this belief so many on the outside insist on holding onto...that's it all about choice, that one can always leave, always walk away, etc. just aggravates me to no end. because it completely disregards the reality of relationships like mine, where the Master has taken tangible means to prevent the possibility of the slave ever walking away.

Hi OSG.

I know you live at the sharp end of slavery and I always think that your posts add a lot to debates like these, in a superlative fashion. It is completely possible to gain fulfilment from the type of slavery you describe and I am always glad to hear you speak of your M/s dynamic with great affection. By your own admission, your relationship with your owner is on the outside edge of what most would consider to be consensual slavery. There are many flavours of slavery just as there are many types of submission.

I know Breaker Morant talked about 'losing the chase' but I don't think that has to be the case in all M/s relationships. People's needs are different and everything in BDSM is a case of YMMV to one extent or another.

I'm sammy on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes Master is in the mood to indulge me, sometimes I'll get a light chastisement like a paddling. On rare occasions, I judge his mood completely wrong and he'll put me in the cellar for an hour or two or decide he wants a footstool for the duration of a movie. Everything is on his terms.

I am not confined to the house. I have a business, friends, a life. Master does not choose to micromanage me or decide what I'm going to wear etc. He wants me to be as useful as possible and that includes being able to earn money, go out for groceries and so on. If he kept me shut in the house, he would feel that he was serving my slavery in that everything I required would have to be supplied by him. It's just one take on M/s but it works for us. He still has absolute power of veto. If he wakes up one morning and decides he would like to see me in particular clothes, I wear them. He can be as involved in my daily life as he chooses. Master likes that I am capable of independent thought and initiative. I know where my boundaries are and what he does and does not consider to be presumption on my part. He is also aware that if he exercised too much day to day control, I'd start to resent it and feel that I wasn't considered to be capable of acting unilaterally in accordance with his wishes. That's because of the kind of person that I am and the kind of dominance that I need in order to flourish as a slave rather than diminish into an oppressed automaton.

I think it is possible to be an M/s couple and have something that isn't too far removed from the D/s relationship that brought us together in the first place. Master doesn't need to assert his authority for the sake of it, it's implicit in everything I say and do, whether he is present or not. He enjoys the fact that he can trust me to act as he would wish without ensuring it personally. He loves that I'm a free thinking, independent, intelligent woman with a fairly robust character. He loves having that laid at his feet every day of my own volition. He would never want things to get to a point where he felt my submission was valueless or boring. If he asks for my opinion, he gets it. I'm not the kind of girl to stare at the floor and say 'whatever you wish Master' regardless of the question.

I don't think that any of this amounts to 'retaining power' and I am firm in my belief that his authority is absolute, it's just also his choice whether to exercise authority or not. Sometimes he'll announce we're having X for dinner, other times he leaves it to me to decide. It's all flexible. We're real people with real lives that don't read like erotic fiction.

Contractually, I do retain the right to walk but only in certain stipulated circumstances...
1) If he chooses to release me.
2) If he dies. (I'm not bequeathed to another owner in the event of his death)
3) If I consider that I am being systematically abused, either emotionally or physically and consider that my life/wellbeing is in genuine danger if I stay. Repeated attempts will have been made to work on the dynamic with him and will have failed. This amounts to a dereliction of duty on Master's part to care for me as a valued possession.

I know 3 is highly subjective but forever is a very long time and I wanted that clause so that if he ever did turn into an utter shit I didn't feel obligated to stay.

So that's our take on it all. I would never say that slavery is 'better' than submission. I do think that different levels of commitment are involved but it's all about different strokes for different folks. I don't think sky diving is 'better' than tennis but different levels of risk are required. It all depends on who you are and what you need. Some would hate sky diving, others live for it.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

As to the comments of Breaker_Morant.

*Grins*

See you had to create a new alt after all the shit you pulled awhile back.
Makes sense after you pretty much went looking for a challenge in so many girls in such a little time. All those promises you made in the hopes for what?
A piece of ass you could push around....

You have no knowledge of the reason why I changed my handle, so I suggest you stick with what you do know. and when I did change it, I made NO secret about the fact that I did.

You're one of those Dom wanna be's who never gets the importance of looking back and learning from your past.You just give yourself a new name once you fuck up and get back to it. And just keep acting like you know shit. To be honest its getting old.

I don't pretend to know everything about everything like some of the people on this board. Where I don't know about the topic usually lurk and learn. I am, however, allowed an opinion and when I feel then need to speak up and let my voice be heard, I will.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he referred to the chase.

He referred to the challenge and I think I understand what he is saying from the reverse side.

Quoted directly from Breaker:

Originally Posted by Breaker_Morant
First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

Chase/challange.. wrong word when I used chase but it is the challange that I am referring to.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Use the ignore feature if it bothers you so much.

I wouldn't be the only one who put you on ignore. You have no idea how many times I've had people say something to me about it.

I'm so glad that when you were trying to buddy up with me and kiss my ass a few weeks ago that I told you that I still wasn't interested. More than most around here I am familiar with the caliber of your character. Thank you for proving me correct.

Did I want to kiss your ass? No, I wanted to bury the hatchett and if possible be friends again. Do I respect you as an individual? Yes. Do I agree with what you have to say all the time? No. Are the two mutual exclusive? No

And as for my character - I admitted my wrong doings and HAVE learned from them. And if we're going to start finger pointing, I can recall a time when your house wasn't in such good order, H.

And I seem to recall you changing your sig and blatantly trumpeting your relationship a while back.

Did I say anything was wrong with your signature line? Read again.

It is an example. A simile. You've heard of them? It was intended to show that micromanagement is not somehow core to the experience. You would know this is you had any actual experience. As is, your statements here show exactly how much real time knowledge you have on the subject.

Yeah, I've heard of them. a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose.” Your comparision still implies no free will.

Perhaps a better comparision would have been "A Girl Friday"? That, to me, would imply a task would be assigned and expected to be carried out by a specified time and the execution would be left to Friday's discretion unless specifically told to accomplish said task by checklist.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Speaking of laws and lawyering, I have to say that despite an earlier post, I'm not a barrister.

Although I won't lie. I would love to wear those wigs.

Ignorance on my part.. I thought that anyone who had sat for and taken the bar exam could be considered a barrister. So could you still be called "esquire"?

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Geez, and, that was only 48 hours ago

There are some personal feelings getting away of people's objectivity. Mine included.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I have few thoughts about some of the other previous posts that I've not commented on and will just kind of lump them all in here (and yes, I see this thread is cooling down and I'm not wanting to toss grenades here - and I have a few that I could - just a thought or two).

MasDom, JM and Homburg - when did I ever give you permission (and why would you?) to call me by my given name on the open board? Granted it is not a state secret or something but I seriously consider that out of line. If I wanted everybody to know it, I would have either used it as my log in or put it somewhere obvious for all to see.

Why are we getting personal here? Comments about people's character and using the word blathering and dick waving (and I'm guilty of it too). Yes, this is free speech site and we do have the right to disagree; it is from the disagreement that all can learn.

Can I wrap my head around the whole M/s thing? No, I can't. Have I been involved with that part of the culture (using Sir Winston's term since it makes more sense to me than lifestyle) - no. Does it mean I don't have a valid opinion on the matter? I don't think so.

As for me, I'm going to do my best to keep whatever personal feelings I have out of the discussion.

 

[the captians wench]

(beause I'm too lazy to look up the post but wanted to comment on this)
Quoted directly from Breaker:

Originally Posted by Breaker_Morant
First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

-My personal deffinition of "slave" has evolved from this. When I first heard the term, I had this idea of micro managed, when to breath, when to piss vission. I will still openly admit that I do like the idea of it, but I've found it does not interest most of the PYLs that I've met. On first glance I thought that it was due to laziness and that I just get involved with lazy tops. But as I thought about it more, I can see why it's just not practical in most situations.

In order to live this type of relationship, the master of this type of slave would be taking on a second job, at the very least in the begining. Rutines would have to be established, aproved comunication tactics for when Master is in a meeting or some such would have to be worked out. It would take up a considerable amount of time, and I don't know that many people who would think that their toys should take that much effort to play with.

While I do look forward to having less and less choices made of my own free will, I no longer have delutions of living such a life as I once thought a slave should live.

Now I have come to believe, that it's more important for the master to be served as he likes than for the slave to be managed. If he does not like to balace th check book and pay the bills, why should he have to? He has a slave to do those tasks for him. She's not making any more discitions than what he has already decided for her.

At work, once my crew members are trained in how things are suposed to run, they run the show and I am there to oversee things. If they have a problem, or come across something they have not been trained to handle, I step in, address it, they learn, and we go back to me doing what is important for me to do and them doing the other tasks that need to be done. I don't have to sit there and tell them, "Okay a med coke gets 10 ice cubes. you put the lid on and walk your fingers around clockwize. Your smile should be 2 inches wide". I've told them what I expect, they do it, or they are delt with. This is kind of how I view slavery in a more practical world.

 

[Homburg]

I wouldn't be the only one who put you on ignore. You have no idea how many times I've had people say something to me about it.

Awesome. Glad to know that there are people out there with the sense to ignore me if I offend their sensibilities.

No, I am being neither snide nor sarcastic. That is honestly how I feel.

Did I want to kiss your ass? No, I wanted to bury the hatchett and if possible be friends again. Do I respect you as an individual? Yes. Do I agree with what you have to say all the time? No. Are the two mutual exclusive? No

And as for my character - I admitted my wrong doings and HAVE learned from them. And if we're going to start finger pointing, I can recall a time when your house wasn't in such good order, H.

Feel free. I made no secret of it. I was pretty damned up front about it, in fact.

Yeah, I've heard of them. a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose.” Your comparision still implies no free will.

Perhaps a better comparision would have been "A Girl Friday"? That, to me, would imply a task would be assigned and expected to be carried out by a specified time and the execution would be left to Friday's discretion unless specifically told to accomplish said task by checklist.

Didja see the part where I said I was paraphrasing Evil_Geoff, and was probably doing it badly? It wasn't my comparison, BM, but the core of it was the fire and forget concept. You don' tpay attention top your slave every minute of the day to make sure she isn't fucking up what she is supposed to do. That said, Girl Friday may well be a better example. *shrug*

A good slave does not need to be micromanaged, and that is probably the single biggest misconception out there. Why in blue blazes would I want to take on more work for myself when, by design, a slave is there to make my life easier?

MasDom, JM and Homburg - when did I ever give you permission (and why would you?) to call me by my given name on the open board? Granted it is not a state secret or something but I seriously consider that out of line. If I wanted everybody to know it, I would have either used it as my log in or put it somewhere obvious for all to see.

I was just riffing off your old user name. If that was your given name, using it as a user ID here is a less than brilliant idea. You don't want me to use it, I won't. I won't apologise, however, for calling you something that you called yourself openly a few months ago. _You_ gave people permission to call you that name by using it yourself.

 

[Homburg]

*snip*

At work, once my crew members are trained in how things are suposed to run, they run the show and I am there to oversee things. If they have a problem, or come across something they have not been trained to handle, I step in, address it, they learn, and we go back to me doing what is important for me to do and them doing the other tasks that need to be done. I don't have to sit there and tell them, "Okay a med coke gets 10 ice cubes. you put the lid on and walk your fingers around clockwize. Your smile should be 2 inches wide". I've told them what I expect, they do it, or they are delt with. This is kind of how I view slavery in a more practical world.

wenchie, darlin, you are perfectly correct. This is a very succinct and solid understanding of workable consensual slavery for many people. I'm there ar efolks out there that view it as a breath-in-breathe-out thing, but most M/s people that I know don't do that for the exact reasons you mention.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I'm there ar efolks out there that view it as a breath-in-breathe-out thing, but most M/s people that I know don't do that for the exact reasons you mention.

And I'll agree that I'm one of them.

 

[Homburg]

And I'll agree that I'm one of them.

Did wenchie's explanation help? Seriously, man, I would lose my mind if I had to micromanage. Job, kids, cats, hobbies, lifting, biking, and slaves that I need to micromanage? I wouldn't have time to think, let alone have any sort of life outside giving constant detailed instructions.

My gals have two rules, that's it. There are a few permutations on those rules, and some specific guidelines for certain situations, but that's it. two rules. If I had to take the time to come up with rules for every situation, I'd spend all my time futzing with rules. Screw that noise.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Did wenchie's explanation help? Seriously, man, I would lose my mind if I had to micromanage. Job, kids, cats, hobbies, lifting, biking, and slaves that I need to micromanage? I wouldn't have time to think, let alone have any sort of life outside giving constant detailed instructions.

It does.

I did read one thing that kind of bothered me.. where cat stated that even if sick she's expected to "perform" except when determined otherwise. Just not the way I think and operate but like its been said - to each their own.

 

[nh23]

It does.

I did read one thing that kind of bothered me.. where cat stated that even if sick she's expected to "perform" except when determined otherwise. Just not the way I think and operate but like its been said - to each their own.

All M's relationships don't operate like that. Some do some don't. It just depends on what works for them.

 

[nh23]

Did wenchie's explanation help? Seriously, man, I would lose my mind if I had to micromanage. Job, kids, cats, hobbies, lifting, biking, and slaves that I need to micromanage? I wouldn't have time to think, let alone have any sort of life outside giving constant detailed instructions.

My gals have two rules, that's it. There are a few permutations on those rules, and some specific guidelines for certain situations, but that's it. two rules. If I had to take the time to come up with rules for every situation, I'd spend all my time futzing with rules. Screw that noise.

*nods* Same for us. I have a few rules that are always there. I can't self harm anymore or cut anymore, I can't be given away to another Master, stuff like that. And the rules he sets are not just for me. Some of them are to give me security. Things he won't do to me. Just based on his own personal morals.

 

[BeachGurl2]

It's always interesting to me when this subject comes up just how heated some of the arguments can get. Why does the label make all that much difference to anyone beyond the people involved in the relationship anyway? If I know someone is an s-type, I know the general direction they are coming from. Same goes for the D-type. Doesn't matter to me where specifically within that s or D spectrum they come from. I just want to know the general direction so I have some idea where their thoughts/opinions/experience come from within the context of the discussion.

I get sick of "subbier than thou," too, but, the question of devotion notwithstanding, I don't think there's really much of anything to argue about here. We just have people who are in different kinds of relationships. . . I think we're essentially arguing over semantics.
<snip>
I'll call bullshit when I see it as quick as anybody here, but I have no reason to tell someone else they're doing it wrong. Do it like you want to; just don't expect me to necessarily do it that way, especially if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

My thoughts exactly. Every single person within the D/s and M/s spectrum defines each of these things completely differently. Sure, there are many similarities between some of the relationships here, both from subs and slaves. Just because someone calls themselves a sub doesn't negate that they could, in fact, be a slave, just as the opposite of that is true. But what different does it make anyway outside of their own relationship?

Live your life how you want to live. Be secure enough in what you do that _my_ words won't affect you. Because my opinion has no material meaning in your life beyond what you let it have.

I love this quote, Homburg. I get so tired of having people tell me that an opinion I hold about this lifestyle has made them feel like less of something in their own relationship. My personal beliefs really should have no bearing whatsoever on someone else's life or their own confidence within it. And while I never intend to hurt someone's feelings, my opinions are just that, my opinions. I have every right to them as anyone else does.

 

[Homburg]

It does.

I did read one thing that kind of bothered me.. where cat stated that even if sick she's expected to "perform" except when determined otherwise. Just not the way I think and operate but like its been said - to each their own.

Ever go to work sick? I can count the number of days I've missed due to illness in the past ten years on one hand. It's just how I am. I'm sure you've done the same. For that matter, did your mom get sick when you were a kid and still take care of you? (no offense if she did not, or if your mother was not around, this is just a common example most people can get) When viv gets sick, if she isn't completely laid out, she still takes care of the kids, M/s or not. I have to work, and I can't afford to take a day off and take care of the kids because she has a cold. If she's flat on her back I would, but not just because she is feeling bad. When you take on a duty, you do your level best to uphold that duty.

That said, when one of my gals is wrecked, I take care of her. that is how it works.

 

[Homburg]

I love this quote, Homburg. I get so tired of having people tell me that an opinion I hold about this lifestyle has made them feel like less of something in their own relationship. My personal beliefs really should have no bearing whatsoever on someone else's life or their own confidence within it. And while I never intend to hurt someone's feelings, my opinions are just that, my opinions. I have every right to them as anyone else does.

I had a chat with a good friend of mine from this board. She told me how posts like I've made here used to have her going to her D for reassurance that she was doing things the right way. I honestly would never have thought of such a thing, as it is just not how I am. Something posted here on lit or elsewhere may cause me to question my stance or how I do something, but I am not going to need reassurance. It's just not how I'm built. Because of this, I have trouble even conceiving of such things in other people.

I'm thinking of putting that line in my sig. Course my sig is getting bloody huge as is...

 

[MasDom]

You have no knowledge of the reason why I changed my handle, so I suggest you stick with what you do know. and when I did change it, I made NO secret about the fact that I did.


I don't pretend to know everything about everything like some of the people on this board. Where I don't know about the topic usually lurk and learn. I am, however, allowed an opinion and when I feel then need to speak up and let my voice be heard, I will.

I had no idea it was so taboo to use your given name, it was in your last screen name, so I didn't think anything of it. But I keep my personal say in this, and maintain my opinion that you are an asshat.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I had a chat with a good friend of mine from this board. She told me how posts like I've made here used to have her going to her D for reassurance that she was doing things the right way. I honestly would never have thought of such a thing, as it is just not how I am. Something posted here on lit or elsewhere may cause me to question my stance or how I do something, but I am not going to need reassurance. It's just not how I'm built. Because of this, I have trouble even conceiving of such things in other people.

I'm thinking of putting that lin ein my sig. Course my sig is getting bloody huge as is...

I admit that in my early days here, I did take a few comments personally. But I quickly realized just how silly that is. I am who I am and I do what works for me. I wish that others felt the same way. I feel badly when someone tells me I've hurt their feelings because of an opinion I hold, but really, that isn't about me or my opinions, it's about them and their own insecurities.

And I thought of stealing it for my own sig line, too.

 

[Homburg]

I admit that in my early days here, I did take a few comments personally. But I quickly realized just how silly that is. I am who I am and I do what works for me. I wish that others felt the same way. I feel badly when someone tells me I've hurt their feelings because of an opinion I hold, but really, that isn't about me or my opinions, it's about them and their own insecurities.

And I thought of stealing it for my own sig line, too.

Feel free

And I agree with you on your take here.