Difference between subs and slaves

[subbie_333]

Wow, you people are civilized. Usually when i see this discussion, a fight breaks out and everybody has to be sent to their rooms

Geez, and, that was only 48 hours ago

 

[Homburg]

And this, friends, is why I have been on this thread. The sort of ignorance [personal info prohibited per our forum guidelines] is showing is why I said something. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about M/s. No, I'm not an expert, nor the premier example of it (I'm not even close, and my personal experience in M/s has been short, less than a year), but I am part of that spectrum. The problem comes when someone in M/s tries to dispel those misconceptions, and people in D/s relationships see it as a challenge.

Nothing _I_ say lessens the beauty of your relationship.
Nothing _I_ say lessens your submission.
Nothing _I_, or anyone else, says or does modifies in any way what you do.

My problem is that I don't see a judgemental issue with what I say. So, you are not as committed to your submission as a slave is to hers in _my_ eyes. And?
1) It is just my opinion. I'm not god. I'm not The BDSM Licensing Authority.
2) Saying that a submissive is somehow less than a slave because she is not as submissive is like saying that a woman with short hair is less of a woman than one with long hair. You are not somehow less because you are not a slave. I don't care how submissive you are. You aren't _my_ submissive, so all that matters to me is what sort of person you are.

The problem is that people see it that way. They decide that I'm declaring myself the BDSM Licensing Authority, or that I'm god and purveyor of That Which Is Real. Sorry, I have opinions. I state them strongly. It is how I am.

There is an issue of majority priviledge here as well. M/s people talk about M/s and we're suddenly waving the flag, saying we're better, and somehow dogging D/s relationships. D/s people talk about how great D/s is, wave the fuck outta that flag, pound the drum about how fringe/weird M/s is, and nobody calls them on it (except stupid assholes like me). And then we get told that we're waving the flag etc. I'm finding out why so many M/s folk won't get involved in these discussions. It ain't worth it.

Live your life how you want to live. Be secure enough in what you do that _my_ words won't affect you. Because my opinion has no material meaning in your life beyond what you let it have.

 

[Homburg]

My ex called me "slave" a lot. I tied him up and tortured him if he asked me to.

I would have called you a slave too, darlin.

And I know slaves that top their owners when told to. One of the sites I link to as a tutorial site in my ropeworks thread is run by a slave that learned ropework because his Mistress enjoys being tied up, and she trusts him to do it properly. He does beautiful work, and I love his site.

 

[BiBunny]

I would have called you a slave too, darlin.

I'm not sure why this makes me feel good, but it does.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not sure why this makes me feel good, but it does.

*waggles eyebrows*

Because I am the Purveyor of All That Is Real In BDSM. You have been validated from on high.

Rawr, you sexy thing.

 

[mjl2010]

Does it really matter what label is applied to yourself or your partner?

This issue has been discussed ad nausea um. Not even discussions elsewhere on Lit regarding semicolons and commas get as much space.

The real answer is, there are shades of D/s from nearly white to pure black. You could put the husband who occasionally spanks his wife before he fucks her as being D/s for the moment anyway. Then you go to the opposite end and you see a total exchange of power.

In the middle are those of you that call yourselves switches. You're certainly not a slave if you're a switch. You would never give up all power in a relationship.

Give it a rest already. In the time you people spent arguing over this, 500 children died in some desert African country. That matters. Not what you label yourself or someone else.

MJL

 

[intothewoods]

And this, friends, is why I have been on this thread. The sort of ignorance [personal info prohibited per our forum guidelines] is showing is why I said something. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about M/s. No, I'm not an expert, nor the premier example of it (I'm not even close, and my personal experience in M/s has been short, less than a year), but I am part of that spectrum. The problem comes when someone in M/s tries to dispel those misconceptions, and people in D/s relationships see it as a challenge.

Nothing _I_ say lessens the beauty of your relationship.
Nothing _I_ say lessens your submission.
Nothing _I_, or anyone else, says or does modifies in any way what you do.

My problem is that I don't see a judgemental issue with what I say. So, you are not as committed to your submission as a slave is to hers in _my_ eyes. And?
1) It is just my opinion. I'm not god. I'm not The BDSM Licensing Authority.
2) Saying that a submissive is somehow less than a slave because she is not as submissive is like saying that a woman with short hair is less of a woman than one with long hair. You are not somehow less because you are not a slave. I don't care how submissive you are. You aren't _my_ submissive, so all that matters to me is what sort of person you are.

The problem is that people see it that way. They decide that I'm declaring myself the BDSM Licensing Authority, or that I'm god and purveyor of That Which Is Real. Sorry, I have opinions. I state them strongly. It is how I am.

There is an issue of majority priviledge here as well. M/s people talk about M/s and we're suddenly waving the flag, saying we're better, and somehow dogging D/s relationships. D/s people talk about how great D/s is, wave the fuck outta that flag, pound the drum about how fringe/weird M/s is, and nobody calls them on it (except stupid assholes like me). And then we get told that we're waving the flag etc. I'm finding out why so many M/s folk won't get involved in these discussions. It ain't worth it.

Live your life how you want to live. Be secure enough in what you do that _my_ words won't affect you. Because my opinion has no material meaning in your life beyond what you let it have.

I'm hesitant to post a response since things seem to be cooling down, but I gotta say - just because some people took your comments personally doesn't mean that there weren't legitimate disagreements here. I don't think it's accurate to dismiss the entire discussion as either ignorance or people who thought, oh no, Homburg said my submission wasn't ______ enough!

You are free to wave a flag, not wave a flag, whatever. It's just your opinion. Just osg's opinion. Etc. etc. I just disagreed.

 

[Homburg]

I'm hesitant to post a response since things seem to be cooling down, but I gotta say - just because some people took your comments personally doesn't mean that there weren't legitimate disagreements here. I don't think it's accurate to dismiss the entire discussion as either ignorance or people who thought, oh no, Homburg said my submission wasn't ______ enough!

You are free to wave a flag, not wave a flag, whatever. It's just your opinion. Just osg's opinion. Etc. etc. I just disagreed.

Absolutely. I've just noticed a tendency to take things personally, so I wanted it dead clear. I'm as relevant as you let me be. That's all. And, no, it's not all ignorance. there's a whole lot of willful misreading in there too

 

[intothewoods]

Does it really matter what label is applied to yourself or your partner?

This issue has been discussed ad nausea um. Not even discussions elsewhere on Lit regarding semicolons and commas get as much space.

The real answer is, there are shades of D/s from nearly white to pure black. You could put the husband who occasionally spanks his wife before he fucks her as being D/s for the moment anyway. Then you go to the opposite end and you see a total exchange of power.

In the middle are those of you that call yourselves switches. You're certainly not a slave if you're a switch. You would never give up all power in a relationship.

Give it a rest already. In the time you people spent arguing over this, 500 children died in some desert African country. That matters. Not what you label yourself or someone else.

MJL

Oh, I hate kids. What else ya got?

 

[intothewoods]

Absolutely. I've just noticed a tendency to take things personally, so I wanted it dead clear. I'm as relevant as you let me be. That's all. And, no, it's not all ignorance. there's a whole lot of willful misreading in there too

Willful misreading? Damn. That's kinky.

 

[BiBunny]

In the middle are those of you that call yourselves switches. You're certainly not a slave if you're a switch. You would never give up all power in a relationship.

While "go fuck yourself" would be my immediate knee-jerk reaction to this comment, I think I'll stick with the milder "You might be surprised" instead, as I don't feel like this crap right now.

 

[Homburg]

Willful misreading? Damn. That's kinky.

I live on the wild side.

 

[JMohegan]

And this, friends, is why I have been on this thread. The sort of ignorance Chris is showing is why I said something. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about M/s. No, I'm not an expert, nor the premier example of it (I'm not even close, and my personal experience in M/s has been short, less than a year), but I am part of that spectrum. The problem comes when someone in M/s tries to dispel those misconceptions, and people in D/s relationships see it as a challenge.

Nothing _I_ say lessens the beauty of your relationship.
Nothing _I_ say lessens your submission.
Nothing _I_, or anyone else, says or does modifies in any way what you do.

My problem is that I don't see a judgemental issue with what I say. So, you are not as committed to your submission as a slave is to hers in _my_ eyes. And?
1) It is just my opinion. I'm not god. I'm not The BDSM Licensing Authority.
2) Saying that a submissive is somehow less than a slave because she is not as submissive is like saying that a woman with short hair is less of a woman than one with long hair. You are not somehow less because you are not a slave. I don't care how submissive you are. You aren't _my_ submissive, so all that matters to me is what sort of person you are.

The problem is that people see it that way. They decide that I'm declaring myself the BDSM Licensing Authority, or that I'm god and purveyor of That Which Is Real. Sorry, I have opinions. I state them strongly. It is how I am.

There is an issue of majority priviledge here as well. M/s people talk about M/s and we're suddenly waving the flag, saying we're better, and somehow dogging D/s relationships. D/s people talk about how great D/s is, wave the fuck outta that flag, pound the drum about how fringe/weird M/s is, and nobody calls them on it (except stupid assholes like me). And then we get told that we're waving the flag etc. I'm finding out why so many M/s folk won't get involved in these discussions. It ain't worth it.

Live your life how you want to live. Be secure enough in what you do that _my_ words won't affect you. Because my opinion has no material meaning in your life beyond what you let it have.

I have no idea what the fuck Chris is blathering on about, but I also don't understand why you're lumping other people in with his blathering.

I just called nh23 on her asshat comment relating to those who embrace objectification-style M/s. She subsequently clarified, and I'm cool with her response. I only point it out to you now in the hope that you'll put away the violin.

This isn't about D/s people vs. M/s people.

Homburg, the lengthy discussion of devotion and commitment was sparked when MTTI wrote: "The differences do not extend however to the devotion or commitment felt or expressed," and your response was to "completely disagree" (in this post.)

She said there was no difference in devotion or commitment, and you explicitly disagreed. After multiple pages and dozens of posts, you clarified that you don't believe there is necessarily a difference in devotion or total commitment.

No problem. Misunderstanding resolved.

Why did I object to your assertion, as I originally understood it in your initial response? Because I disagreed with your disagreement! You have opinions and "state them strongly." I do too.

It's just a discussion. That's all.

 

[Homburg]

I have no idea what the fuck Chris is blathering on about, but I also don't understand why you're lumping other people in with his blathering.

Because there are other people in the thread voicing misiniformation as well, though none in his blathering style, as you so aptly put it. Call me a lazy ass for not putting in an exception for the one or two who aren't running on rumour and supposition.

I just called nh23 on her asshat comment relating to those who embrace objectification-style M/s. She subsequently clarified, and I'm cool with her response. I only point it out to you now in the hope that you'll put away the violin.

This isn't about D/s people vs. M/s people.

Sure, JM. That single example certainly does invalidate my entire post. You are, of course, the only person posting here of note, and I was aiming my post solely at you, which is why I mentioned you by name.

Get down with your bad self.

 

[JMohegan]

Because there are other people in the thread voicing misiniformation as well, though none in his blathering style, as you so aptly put it. Call me a lazy ass for not putting in an exception for the one or two who aren't running on rumour and supposition.

Who else is voicing misinformation?

Come to think of it - given the number of people posting on this thread, it will be easier for you to name the "one or two who aren't running on rumour and supposition."

Care to name those two?

Sure, JM. That single example certainly does invalidate my entire post. You are, of course, the only person posting here of note, and I was aiming my post solely at you, which is why I mentioned you by name.

Get down with your bad self.

Obnoxious sarcasm is hardly conducive to a productive exchange.

Getting back to your previous comment -

"D/s people talk about how great D/s is, wave the fuck outta that flag, pound the drum about how fringe/weird M/s is, and nobody calls them on it (except stupid assholes like me)."

Demonstrably untrue. Not just on this thread, and not just because of me.

I see no cause for your violin.

 

[madetotakeit]

I state my opinions for the same reason I read everyone's opinions...to consider things from a different perspective. I have no thoughts of changing someone's mind, simply to say this is how it fits in my world. M/s and D/s are very much like art. I don't have to every piece that I see, but I should have the ability to appreciate it for what it is and what the artist was expressing. It is all subjective.

Live your life how you want to live. Be secure enough in what you do that _my_ words won't affect you. Because my opinion has no material meaning in your life beyond what you let it have.

This is true of what everyone has said on every topic on this board. No matter how strongly you may disagree with something that was said, the person expressing it has the right to do so. Does it affect you beyond what you allow it to? The key word there is allow. I try to keep my personal reaction to further explain my opinion. I don't negate someone because I disagree. I will never evolve if I only read reiterations of how I already think. Doesn't mean I will change my mind, but it gives me the opportunity to fine tune myself.

It's just a discussion. That's all.

People have reacted strongly to a simple statement of my beliefs. I certainly had no idea that what was said would spark pages of retorts. There are many posts that are enlightening personality conflicts aside. I have to say up to a point I have enjoyed this thread more than a certain one that occupied the board last weekend. All posts are valid regardless of whether you agree or not. Opinions should be allowed regardless of experience. People have a right to their perceptions as well as a right to voice their disagreement. To have a discussion it takes at least two viewpoints. Sometimes those will be the same. Sometimes those will differ greatly. But in the end as JMohegan said...it's just a discussion.

 

[Homburg]

Who else is voicing misinformation?

Come to think of it - given the number of people posting on this thread, it will be easier for you to name the "one or two who aren't running on rumour and supposition."

Care to name those two?

Not interested, Jack. Playing the name game just pisses people off. Ain't worth it.

Obnoxious sarcasm is hardly conducive to a productive exchange.

See the smiley? Introducing some levity. Lighten up, Francis.

I see no cause for your violin.

And I see no cause to take this thread, or you in this thread, seriously at this point. Again, it ain't worth it.

Cheers.

 

[ownedsubgal]

not that Homburg needs any defending, he's handled himself well imo...but i do understand what he means when he refers to people voicing misinformation about M/s. an opinion is one thing, but stating an absolute (esp. regarding a lifestyle/dynamic you're not even a part of) is something else altogether. in this thread and countless others, people often make those sort of statements about M/s. it can be extremely frustrating for those of us who live this way, feeling like we have to prove or defend ourselves. and as Homburg mentioned, that is why many M/s folks stay away from "mixed" lifestyle chats/boards/munches/etc. like this, because they just get tired of it. it's why my Master wouldn't be caught dead on a message board or at the local munch, because he is not one to explain himself or his beliefs to anyone. instead he chooses to limit himself to lifestyle interactions with those of like mind. and it's why sometimes even i have to take a break from these places every once in a while. understanding...acceptance...respect...very rarely result from these debates.

 

[EmpressFi]

not that Homburg needs any defending, he's handled himself well imo...but i do understand what he means when he refers to people voicing misinformation about M/s. an opinion is one thing, but stating an absolute (esp. regarding a lifestyle/dynamic you're not even a part of) is something else altogether. in this thread and countless others, people often make those sort of statements about M/s. it can be extremely frustrating for those of us who live this way, feeling like we have to prove or defend ourselves. and as Homburg mentioned, that is why many M/s folks stay away from "mixed" lifestyle chats/boards/munches/etc. like this, because they just get tired of it. it's why my Master wouldn't be caught dead on a message board or at the local munch, because he is not one to explain himself or his beliefs to anyone. instead he chooses to limit himself to lifestyle interactions with those of like mind. and it's why sometimes even i have to take a break from these places every once in a while. understanding...acceptance...respect...very rarely result from these debates.

That statement is true from this side too. That's probably why this conversation always turns into an argument. Because it is rare that you'll find someone who will post that someone can live differently than they do without it coming across as they're doing it "wrong".

 

[Homburg]

not that Homburg needs any defending, he's handled himself well imo...but i do understand what he means when he refers to people voicing misinformation about M/s. an opinion is one thing, but stating an absolute (esp. regarding a lifestyle/dynamic you're not even a part of) is something else altogether. in this thread and countless others, people often make those sort of statements about M/s. it can be extremely frustrating for those of us who live this way, feeling like we have to prove or defend ourselves. and as Homburg mentioned, that is why many M/s folks stay away from "mixed" lifestyle chats/boards/munches/etc. like this, because they just get tired of it. it's why my Master wouldn't be caught dead on a message board or at the local munch, because he is not one to explain himself or his beliefs to anyone. instead he chooses to limit himself to lifestyle interactions with those of like mind. and it's why sometimes even i have to take a break from these places every once in a while. understanding...acceptance...respect...very rarely result from these debates.

At this point, we're pretty lucky with the local munch group that we are part of. The president of the group is M/s, and the group is very M/s friendly. It is not overwhelmingly M/s though, and has a healthy mix. So far, it has been a really great group.

That said, munches are a little widgey for me, as they're too... shiny. Clean. I don't know how to describe it. We go to play parties when we want to see the educational demo, or just want to play in a more public setting. I am almost always the only person playing, and certainly the only one playing even remotely hard.

Other than that, honestly, I spend most of my time at the play parties hanging out with the group president and her slave. My initial thought would be simply because they're really cool people, but it honestly might be because we are of like mind. Something to think about. Thanks, osg.

 

[BiBunny]

That statement is true from this side too. That's probably why this conversation always turns into an argument. Because it is rare that you'll find someone who will post that someone can live differently than they do without it coming across as they're doing it "wrong".

Yeah, I was going to say that, too. I couldn't tell you how many times I've been told that because I switch, I can't possibly be "real." I mean, scroll up, and you'll see that. I get tired of that bullshit. Until you walk in my shoes, you have no fucking idea what my life is like.

 

[Homburg]

Yeah, I was going to say that, too. I couldn't tell you how many times I've been told that because I switch, I can't possibly be "real." I mean, scroll up, and you'll see that. I get tired of that bullshit. Until you walk in my shoes, you have no fucking idea what my life is like.

I'm as likely to be a switch for a day as I am a sub for a day. I honestly can't put myself in that headspace. I'll have to take your word for it, and experience it vicariously.

I will fully admit that while I understand switches conceptually, I don't really grok the idea. I've flirted with tops, bottoms, and switches, and switches still confuse me. Lke I said, I get it intellectually, but it fucks with my domdar something fierce

 

[BiBunny]

I'm as likely to be a switch for a day as I am a sub for a day. I honestly can't put myself in that headspace. I'll have to take your word for it, and experience it vicariously.

I will fully admit that while I understand switches conceptually, I don't really grok the idea. I've flirted with tops, bottoms, and switches, and switches still confuse me. Lke I said, I get it intellectually, but it fucks with my domdar something fierce

A lot of people don't get it. And I'm cool with that. I don't really get people who only do one or the other. But I'd never tell you that you weren't a "real" sadist because you've never been a masochist, to use a somewhat related example. Know what I mean?

Most people here don't really know anything about me aside from the posts I make. But a few folks, like you, do know a bit more about me and my relationships. When M/s people say others don't understand them and then turn around and tell me that MY devotion and MY sense of love, loyalty, and duty weren't "real," then that's pure hypocrisy. How the hell would they know, right?

Feel free to throw in whatever you like here about my personal life, LOL.

 

[Homburg]

A lot of people don't get it. And I'm cool with that. I don't really get people who only do one or the other. But I'd never tell you that you weren't a "real" sadist because you've never been a masochist, to use a somewhat related example. Know what I mean?

Well, I do have some maso tendencies in certain arenas, and I had some needleplay done on me!

And I can see why the non-switches would be confusing to you.

Most people here don't really know anything about me aside from the posts I make. But a few folks, like you, do know a bit more about me and my relationships. When M/s people say others don't understand them and then turn around and tell me that MY devotion and MY sense of love, loyalty, and duty weren't "real," then that's pure hypocrisy. How the hell would they know, right?

Feel free to throw in whatever you like here about my personal life, LOL.

I would say that he was in the right to call you his slave, as it made sense in the context of your dynamic. Your relationship was unconventional, sure, but all of our BDSM-y relationships are, by default. It's a complex thing, and I don't know that I can explain it, but I certainly won't gainsay it.

Not passing approval, by the way. Just agreeing.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Well i will jump into the fray without looking both ways first. i am a slave tho i fight it constantly because 1) its freaking frustrating not to get my way and 2) due to personal circumstances i can't live in the state of total surrender that i would like. i am learning to accept that i am more slave than sub and that for me it hasn't been a choice or anything i have "decided".

Because i am not really free to live a true M/s lifestyle my style of submission can look crazy and out of control. i try to protect myself by appearing very headstrong and sometimes even dominant because i wouldn't want anyone to know just how submissive i am. Some do know and of those that do most are not willing to exercise authority and with good reason really. i want extreme, i want total surrender and am only half capable of putting any kind of priority on the rest of my life. Who really wants that responsibility?

In that sense i guess i am just another mixed up submissive. i stumbled on an article a bit ago about something called a "High End Submissive". This article describes me to a large degree and was quite scary when i read it.

High End Submissive

My point tho was that for some, perhaps not all, i do not believe being sub or slave is a choice or decision, it is more an orientation, one that i also believe may change over time and perhaps depending on who you are with.