Difference between subs and slaves

[the captians wench]

I get an enormous personal rush out of the knowledge that a partner could stop what I'm doing at any moment..... but chooses not to.

To me, that feels like a reinforcement of devotion and commitment, in the moment, every time.

(Of course, I don't want her to push herself past the point of physical or mental harm, but I don't think that's what you were suggesting.)

See this is the issue I have with safewords. I get so worried about dissapointing my partner that I almost refuse to use them. I will push myself past my breaking points with little more than a "this clamps are starting to get a bit much". I'll give clues like that, but usually that's past the point where I start thinking, "maybe I need to call a stop to this".

Honestly, I'm not sure it's devotion so much as stubborness. I'm determined to go to the point he wants to take me, and beyond in order to make him as happy as possible. Most of the time I find that they would have been happier if I had said something sooner about aproaching a limit.

The only time this isn't a factor is when I feel my sugar dropping. "Juice" is one word called as soon as the thought comes to my head, because I know, once I start thinking it, it's a very sudden downward spiral.

I've debated whether my thoughts on my use of safewords is related to the way they were presented to me, or if it's my own fabrication. While I don't recall anyone saying that using a safeword is a sign that I'm "less of a pyl" I did get that impression from people. Tho I also remember being told a number of times "If at any time you feel uncomfortable you are to remember your stoplights, because if you get hurt, and it's because you failed to call red, I'm going to be very angry". For some reason, this just made me want to refrain from using them all the more.

 

[nh23]

Absolutely, darlin. And I am so glad to see you happy like this.

As I am to see you and your family so happy.

I was just thinking the same thing about your post that Homburg quoted.

Thank You.

Keeping in line with Malin's general question earlier, how many of the non-M/s people here know M/s people well? Not a challenging question, just something I am interested in. Many times I've heard "I never met anyone in an M/s relationship before, so I didn't know what to expect. You guys are really normal." Much as nh23 was saying, she avoided the slave term because of misconceptions she had about slavery. How many people here are discussing slavery based on stuff they've seen in fanfic? How many M/s folks do you know well enough that you've seen them in the quiet moments outside of scenes?

Again, I stress that this is not a challenge. This is an honest question based on my personal experience that many people have some weird ideas of what M/s looks like day to day. There is weirdness out there, don't get me wrong, but, wow, it is not as freaky or extreme as some people seem to allude to.

You and v were the first couple I met in R/L that were in a M/s relationship. I was really shocked that I had so many misconceptions previous to that. Looking at how you guys live really changed my mind about a lot of things, along with our many talks as I've mentioned before.

 

[MasDom]

Very well expressed.

Absolutely fantastic post, MasDom. Spot on, man.

After reading your posts I thank you for your response. pet is right about all of you being so friendly. Breath of fresh air after spending so many years on CM, and it all being so oblivious.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Hi MIS, I didn't check back on this thread until now and only just read your post.

anyway, i thought id add my two cents in here. i am a 24/7 TPE slave in a M/s relationship that is currently LDR (thats almost too many acronyms for one sentence). its not by choice. its not online only. its just the way it is becuase of my family, medical issues, and where i go to school. when college is done for me it will no longer be LDR, but untill then we must be patient. and believe you me, patience isnt easy.

Firstly, congrats that you're planning to go from LDR to cohabiting in the future. I know LDR is frustrating as Master and I started off as LDR. I also think it's a brave woman who walks into an established marriage and carves herself a niche there. Kudos to you, Homburg and Milificent for that.

being a slave means Master comes first. how, might you ask, can you do that when you are many many hours away? how do you maintain his position as first priority in your life? the answer for me is more then just communication. its contact. availability. calling him throughout the day. sending letters. picture messages. texts. webcam up anytime im alone in my room and he is in his office where his computer is. keeping him fully involved in my life descisions, such as my medical issues.

I see that I trivialised LDR and I shouldn't have done. In this day and age it's more than possible to include a PYL in every aspect of your life. Master and I didn't really do this. On a personal level, I just didn't feel like I was 'his' full time until we lived together. While you'd be on his doorstep with your bags packed in a heartbeat were circumstances different, Master and I simply weren't ready to make that commitment to each other. Therein lies the difference and I should have realised that before I posted my last.

i am fond of saying that i am his, always and forver, anywhere. no matter where we are. even though i am not next to him i still wear his collar always, tmy slave ID number is strung on an anklet that has been attached aaround my ankle with no way of removing save breaking it, i have his initial hanging fron the naval piercing i got the day i submitted to him, his initial cut into my right thigh, and a scar on the back of my left knee from a dragon tail.

rituals are important in any relationship. LDR they become especially imprtant, as they help restablish my place daily (or however often that particular ritual takes place). for example, i have a bedtime that Master set, every night. the time varies depending on how early i have to be up the next day. every night i wash up, come back to my room, get naked, put on my leather ankle cuffs (right then left), kneel and switch my day collar for my leather one, out on my linked cuffs around my wrists, and he sings me to sleep.

Oh Hommie! You sing her to sleep? Awwwww

You badass.

Sorry. This is another thing that we don't really do. Master has no interest in managing things like this. I go to bed when my tasks are done and I'm tired (or he takes me there.) I guess our dynamics are different in a lot of ways.

the biggest reason its still possible is becuase i still listen. i still activly choose him over whatever else is in conflict. i still go out of my way to find ways to please him. this is not always easy, and not always intuitive, but it is just what i do its how i live. Master comes first, whether i am by his side or in NY.

I'm really pleased that everything is working out for you and I apologise if I offended you with my statement. Sometimes subjective experience clouds my opinions, just like it does everyone else.

I sit corrected.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

If you have limits, you are retaining power.
If you have a safeword, you are retaining power.

If you have neither, you have no power. This is why we call it Total Power Exchange. And when you give over all of your power, are you not more committed to your submission?

While I can understand the opinions of the other posters here, my personal transition from sub to slave was a revelation. At the time I rather naively imagined that it would be little more than renegotiating and seeking to serve as before. The ramifications of ceding every aspect of control - sexual, financial, personal, even emotional - are much further reaching.

It's one thing to give up a safeword. It's another to agree to obey absolutely (with a few caveats on common decency) and to own nothing. Master has emptied my bank account on one occasion and made other decisions that I disagree with and affect me personally. Because I chose my place, I support him and trust that he has our interests both as a couple and individuals at heart.

There is a lot more involved in TPE than taking more of a beating in the bedroom.

 

[Homburg]

Kudos to you, Homburg and Milificent for that.

Thank you. It has been rough in spots, but it is smoothing out. Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

Oh Hommie! You sing her to sleep? Awwwww

You badass.

Aw, geeze.

Yes, I do. When she was here for the long visit, the whole lot of us got sick. She got the worst of it, and I stayed with her the whole time (not all that onerous, as I was sick as a dog too), and she really needed sleep. So I decided to sing to her like I used to sing my youngest daughter to sleep as a baby. Since then, that song has become a great comfort to her. She asked me to sing to her after she had to go back to NY, and I did. It has become part of our nightly ritual.

Calling it a ritual is probably weird-sounding. It's not like a complex thing. She asks permission to put on collar and such, turns out the lights, and we talk a few minutes before I sing to her. It is a ritual in the sense that she ends each day the same way, and it centers her and helps her get to sleep. As crying herself to sleep used to be a not-altogether-uncommon occurrence in her previous relationship, this is a step I am happy to take.

Sorry. This is another thing that we don't really do. Master has no interest in managing things like this. I go to bed when my tasks are done and I'm tired (or he takes me there.) I guess our dynamics are different in a lot of ways.

We find that little things like this help keep the emotions solid and tangible. It helps mitigate the distance. I am not one for micromanagement at all, but I recognise that she rests easier when we take these steps. As night time is by far the hardest time for her, I will go the extra mile to soothe.

I'm really pleased that everything is working out for you and I apologise if I offended you with my statement. Sometimes subjective experience clouds my opinions, just like it does everyone else.

I sit corrected.

*hugs* I don't think anyone was offended at what you said, MIS included. She did not sound offended when I spoke to her on the phone about it. She asked me to make sure that she didn't come off as unhappy with your post. I didn't think so, so I had her post it. If she sounded irritated, please accept my apologies, as I did not catch it when she asked me to parse the post. She did not intend it that way.

 

[the captians wench]

I see that I trivialised LDR and I shouldn't have done. In this day and age it's more than possible to include a PYL in every aspect of your life. Master and I didn't really do this. On a personal level, I just didn't feel like I was 'his' full time until we lived together. While you'd be on his doorstep with your bags packed in a heartbeat were circumstances different, Master and I simply weren't ready to make that commitment to each other. Therein lies the difference and I should have realised that before I posted my last.

I can relate to some parts of this as well.

If I could I would be on the next flight to my love and wouldn't look back, how ever things are not that simple. While we agree that for us to have a "true" M/s relationship, that does not nessisarily mean living together, tho that is the most likely situation given the circumstances. Jounar and I both feel that for me to be considered a slave we would have to live a lot closer. At this point, it's just not possible for him to be involved in every aspect of my life. While I may think about him, and think about what he would most like me to do, actually contacting him and having a decition sent back to me in a timely mannor is just not always possible.

Jounar has a very distinct since of fairness. He feels that it isn't fair for me to go thru some of the more degrading and limit pushing thiings he would like to do with me, if he is not physically able to pick up the pieces afterwords. I respect his disition in this, and I can see his point, but this does not mean that we would have to live together, just seeing each other on a regular and frequient basis.

The commitment is there, and the longing to push our relationship forward is there, but the actual realization of these things just takes time.

But you make a point that I have been pondering on, on and off, for three years, and that is what we are really ready to commit to. Me, I know I was ready to hop a plane and serve at his feet for the rest of my life, after knowing him a total of 6 months. He on the other hand, while just as inthusiastic about the romantisism of the idea, just was not ready to make that kind of commitment. We did start on a path to lead me to being more his idea of what a slave is, but after a while we agreed that it just wouldn't work.

He still refurs to me as his property, but as he pointed out a few nights ago, that's as his submissive, not as his slave. He just doesn't feel it's fair to me to make me his slave when we are an 8 hour flight apart.

 

[intothewoods]

Complete agreement on both points. To slide it back a bit, and remove it from slave/submissive, I could make a similar comparison between bottoms and submissives, and I doubt that anyone would get their knickers in a wad. It's all points on the spectrum, and, as you said, commitment to submission is directly related to the scope of that submission.

I am not sure why people get hot over slave/submissive comparisons, but not submissive/bottom comparisons. Probably because so few folks here identify as bottoms. *shrug* Or because bottoms aren't so worried about it.

I actually know many people who get caught up in the bottom/submissive definition.

Keeping in line with Malin's general question earlier, how many of the non-M/s people here know M/s people well? Not a challenging question, just something I am interested in. Many times I've heard "I never met anyone in an M/s relationship before, so I didn't know what to expect. You guys are really normal." Much as nh23 was saying, she avoided the slave term because of misconceptions she had about slavery. How many people here are discussing slavery based on stuff they've seen in fanfic? How many M/s folks do you know well enough that you've seen them in the quiet moments outside of scenes?

Again, I stress that this is not a challenge. This is an honest question based on my personal experience that many people have some weird ideas of what M/s looks like day to day. There is weirdness out there, don't get me wrong, but, wow, it is not as freaky or extreme as some people seem to allude to.

I do know a variety of people who are in M/s relationships but, again, I'm always intrigued to meet 24-7 live in kinksters to see how or if their dynamic extends to the real world. And I did indeed think you and viv were quite normal, though I think that goes in line with deromanticizing M/s relationships, or at least not overly romanticizing them. I know some M/s couples who do not live together, and that looks quite different than those M/s couples who do. The majority of people I know who id as a master or slave are poly, and their M/s relationship is not their primary one. But I also know people for whom their primary, live in 24/7 relationship is M/s. It all just depends.

The longer I am in this lifestyle and thinking about these issues in terms of a long term relationship, the less important to me categories such as slave and submissive become. People grow and evolve. I want to evolve with my partner. For that reason, I feel not necessarily limited by a label, but not particularly concerned with one either.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

After reading your posts I thank you for your response. pet is right about all of you being so friendly. Breath of fresh air after spending so many years on CM, and it all being so oblivious.

Welcome to the Lit family, MasDom. I think you'll find us all pretty no nonsense and real (we even bicker like a real family), which is one of the downfalls to what I noticed on CM.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

...I wouldn't even begin to try to say that I'm better than other slaves or submissives. I'm sure there are people out there subs and slaves alike that would beat me in any pyl contest. *shrugs* It's just a bunch of us trying to say in our own experience what the differences are.

I am right with you here, NH, and as Daddy told me last night when I told him about the conversation here: "The only label that matters is that you are owned."

That I am

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, see, this is where I fall out with the sub/slave thing. It's the expectation on the part of most people that a slave is going to jump through flaming hoops 47 times a day just because Master tells her to. I mean, yeah, Master likes to beat his chest and let everybody think that he and super-slave keep surviving these constant tests of DEVOTION, but let's face it, if you're really so insecure that you have to have that level of hoop-jumping, do you really have any business with a slave?

I was serious a couple of pages back when I said that when I wore a collar, I circumvented the whole discussion by calling myself a pet. Pets have Masters, so that was the end of the discussion for me.

I was not a sub by any accepted definition. I'm too quick to tell someone where to shove it (including my old Master, by the way) for anyone to say I'm submissive. By the flaming-hoop-jumping definitions we're getting here, I wasn't a slave, either, even though he often called me one. He said something, and I generally did it. If it was stupid, I told him so. Would I have sawed both my legs off with a rusty spoon if he'd insisted? Yeah, probably, but it's not like he'd have ever asked, so the point is moot.

He knew I loved him. He knew I'd have done anything in the world for him. He didn't need it proven over and over and over again to him. As slave/pet/whatever the fuck you want to call it, I cleaned his house occasionally (more out of lack of anything better to do while he was at work), rubbed his feet pretty much every night, and had kinky sex with him a LOT. That was about the extent of it. No great feats of devotion, I suppose, to the outsider, but I loved him and wanted to make him happy, so I did it.

I have no desire to ever go there again, but it's a model that worked for me, and what I'm going to model any relationship I ever have with a pyl-type person after.

Maybe I'm just touchy and maudlin today. Yesterday was his birthday, and tomorrow would've been the two-year anniversary of my collaring. I even took my collar out yesterday and cleaned it until it shone and put it in a clean, dry place, so it wouldn't get mildewed again. (You can all refrain from the "get over it speeches"; that is part of what I was hoping to accomplish by doing what I did.) I wouldn't have even brought it up, but this thread is really bugging me. There is a sort of self-importance in a lot of the posts that piss me off. After what I've gone through and the love I have/had for him, don't you DARE insinuate that because I didn't jump through those flaming hoops that I wasn't devoted.

Hell, I don't know. I might feel differently about this next week. This is just a bad time for me to see this thread, I suppose. But I don't think you can accurately judge anyone's devotion by their behaviors. Again, devotion is not quantitative.

 

[ecstaticsub]

If a slave is supposedly more committed and devoted than a submissive, then is a Master more committed in a M/s relationship than a Dominant in a D/s relationship?

 

[ecstaticsub]

another thing...since I have no limits with my PYL that he hasn't already pre-set, therefor I am already doing everything and anything that he would want from me does that mean that I am not as committed or devoted to submission as a slave even though I am doing everything my PYL would want?


I would say that I am just as devoted and committed to the level of submission desired by my PYL as any slave is to the level of devotion and committment desired by their Master.

 

[BiBunny]

another thing...since I have no limits with my PYL that he hasn't already pre-set, therefor I am already doing everything and anything that he would want from me does that mean that I am not as committed or devoted to submission as a slave even though I am doing everything my PYL would want?


I would say that I am just as devoted and committed to the level of submission desired by my PYL as any slave is to the level of devotion and committment desired by their Master.

You said what I was getting at in far fewer words.

If what you do makes your PYL happy, then what business do any random people on the Internet have trying to gauge your level of devotion by your actions, your use or non-use of limits and safeword, or what you call yourself? Only the people in the relationship (and perhaps some of their closest friends) know what's in their hearts.

 

[intothewoods]

Oh, Bunny. I often relate to the way you feel. I totally get it. If I were really into hugs I'd say I just want to hug you. High five?

Many people have said it before - ultimately what matters is what the two people in the relationship feel. And what you feel about yourself. You are in the best position to determine what you want, what you are, etc.

 

[intothewoods]

You said what I was getting at in far fewer words.

If what you do makes your PYL happy, then what business do any random people on the Internet have trying to gauge your level of devotion by your actions, your use or non-use of limits and safeword, or what you call yourself? Only the people in the relationship (and perhaps some of their closest friends) know what's in their hearts.

Ha, cross-posted with you.

 

[BiBunny]

Oh, Bunny. I often relate to the way you feel. I totally get it. If I were really into hugs I'd say I just want to hug you. High five?

Many people have said it before - ultimately what matters is what the two people in the relationship feel. And what you feel about yourself. You are in the best position to determine what you want, what you are, etc.

*High five*

 

[ownedsubgal]

it's been very interesting (and refreshing!) to see how this often-argued topic has played out here. it's so pleasant to see people discuss and debate respectfully, really hearing one another and learning from each other. gives me the warm fuzzies, or maybe it's just my menses talking. lol

personally i've always gotten hung up on this idea that "submissive" and "slave" are terms that are automatically exclusive of each other. an owned submissive is a slave, but she is still a submissive (hence my nick). also, a slave needn't be submissive at all. of course, this all depends on how one defines the terms. i define submissive as a personality trait, one with a natural inclination to please and serve others. "slave" is a status, referring to one who is the property of another. so one can be one or the other, or both. being a slave has nothing imo to do with one's level of commitment, devotion, or any other such thing. it simply means that you are owned and therefore your life is in the control of another.

 

[BiBunny]

it's been very interesting (and refreshing!) to see how this often-argued topic has played out here. it's so pleasant to see people discuss and debate respectfully, really hearing one another and learning from each other. gives me the warm fuzzies, or maybe it's just my menses talking. lol

personally i've always gotten hung up on this idea that "submissive" and "slave" are terms that are automatically exclusive of each other. an owned submissive is a slave, but she is still a submissive (hence my nick). also, a slave needn't be submissive at all. of course, this all depends on how one defines the terms. i define submissive as a personality trait, one with a natural inclination to please and serve others. "slave" is a status, referring to one who is the property of another. so one can be one or the other, or both. being a slave has nothing imo to do with one's level of commitment, devotion, or any other such thing. it simply means that you are owned and therefore your life is in the control of another.

I was just telling nh that I think it's goofy to call yourself a slave if you don't have an owner and never have been owned. (Read: weird people on CollarMe.) I think it's kinda goofy to call yourself a Master or a Mistress if you don't have a slave. So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, 'specially that last line.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I was just telling nh that I think it's goofy to call yourself a slave if you don't have an owner and never have been owned. (Read: weird people on CollarMe.) I think it's kinda goofy to call yourself a Master or a Mistress if you don't have a slave. So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, 'specially that last line.

i think that's rather goofy as well, calling yourself a slave without being owned or having never been owned. as far as Master, that may not be so bad if you are say one who has mastered a particular craft/skill/etc. in a particular area and has gained much respect in a particular lifestyle community. but then again, that excuses others referring to you that way, it makes it no less goofy to call yourself that or to demand it of others.

 

[JMohegan]

Complete agreement on both points. To slide it back a bit, and remove it from slave/submissive, I could make a similar comparison between bottoms and submissives, and I doubt that anyone would get their knickers in a wad. It's all points on the spectrum, and, as you said, commitment to submission is directly related to the scope of that submission.

I am not sure why people get hot over slave/submissive comparisons, but not submissive/bottom comparisons. Probably because so few folks here identify as bottoms. *shrug* Or because bottoms aren't so worried about it.

I don't get my knickers in a wad about any of this, but I do call bullshit on generalized rankings of emotions or universal relationship goals by dynamics - regardless of the comparison made.

Instead of saying something like: "D/s makes communication much easier for me," all too often people make insupportable and outrageous generalizations, such as: "People in D/s relationships communicate better than vanilla people do."

Trust, communication, commitment, devotion, a deep and lasting bond. These are considered positive traits and desirable goals by most people in strong personal relationships of any flavor. The idea that the expression or attainment of these goals can be ranked by dynamic is asinine, because the strength and success of any union will be determined by the compatibility and efforts of the individuals in the relationship, not the flavor of the dynamic itself.

Perhaps one reason that submissive vs. slave discussions are frequently problematic is that this particular distinction is often defined as an increase in the possession of those positive traits and attainment of those desirable goals.

The way I see it, any bottom, submissive, slave, or curious non-kinkster, who allows him or herself to be tied up alone in a room with another person, is trusting the Top/Dom/whatever with his or her life.

Absolutely, though I would argue that anyone that lets someone tie them up and then that person leaves is not trusting their top with their life. they are trusting the whims of fate. That is some scary shit.

"Tied up alone in a room with another person" means Bob and Kate are in his basement, she's tied up, and there's no one else around.

 

[BiBunny]

i think that's rather goofy as well, calling yourself a slave without being owned or having never been owned. as far as Master, that may not be so bad if you are say one who has mastered a particular craft/skill/etc. in a particular area and has gained much respect in a particular lifestyle community. but then again, that excuses others referring to you that way, it makes it no less goofy to call yourself that or to demand it of others.

Right. Like I'm getting a master's degree, but I'm still not going to call myself Master of anything. Ok, well, I might say I'm a master of procrastination, but that's a little different.

 

[LadyC]

I find myself falling into this trap: too many names; too many damned labels.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

I find myself falling into this trap: too many names; too many damned labels.

I think we all do even if mostly because society places so many labels on us and teaches us to not only label ourselves, but label each other.

 

[JMohegan]

Keeping in line with Malin's general question earlier, how many of the non-M/s people here know M/s people well? Not a challenging question, just something I am interested in. Many times I've heard "I never met anyone in an M/s relationship before, so I didn't know what to expect. You guys are really normal." Much as nh23 was saying, she avoided the slave term because of misconceptions she had about slavery. How many people here are discussing slavery based on stuff they've seen in fanfic? How many M/s folks do you know well enough that you've seen them in the quiet moments outside of scenes?

Again, I stress that this is not a challenge. This is an honest question based on my personal experience that many people have some weird ideas of what M/s looks like day to day. There is weirdness out there, don't get me wrong, but, wow, it is not as freaky or extreme as some people seem to allude to.

I turned 50 in March, and have been talking to people who incorporate power and pain into their encounters or relationships for more than 30 years. Out of the thousands of discussions in which I've participated, I would agree that the most meaningful are those held in private. The tendency to posture in public is widespread indeed.

In the interest of saving time (which is short at the moment), I'll respond to your question with a cut & paste from one of my posts on DB's Ownership thread, as follows.



The property thing doesn't interest me personally, but I'll be happy to pass on some of what I've heard from hetero guys on this subject.

The most frequent reason given for ID'ing as a Master of owned property is what I'll call the "badass factor." From a BDSM cultural perspective, Masters are frequently granted more respect by peers, and further, there is often a tremendous amount of pressure on submissives in certain circles to be collared - as sort of the ultimate way of having arrived in the BDSM sense.

"The Master designation gives me exalted status in the community, makes her happy, turns her on, and does fit at least some aspects of our relationship, so why the hell not?" That seems to be the gist of it, for most of the guys I've talked to privately. What is achieved with the M/s ID (relative to regular D/s) is: perceived status in the community, and enhanced arousal and satisfaction within the relationship.


The second most frequent reason given for ID'ing as a Master of owned property is what I'll call the "ultimate control goal." The guy on Top wants to retain the right to exert either latent or active control over every aspect of his mate's life, as well as their interaction with one another. In many cases, there are significant areas in which latent control never becomes active - and the relationships therefore bear marked de facto resemblence to other unions that do not ID as M/s. But the sense of "well, I could if I wanted to...." brings added comfort and satisfaction to all.


Another reason given for wanting to own women as property is what I'll call "ultimate objectification", or "the chair thing." The guys I have spoken to who embrace this dynamic seek access to a woman whom they can use in whatever manner they please, whenever they choose to, without having their behavior constrained by the obligations of marriage or their choices limited by the fact that the quality of the relationship might suffer from her disappointment or other emotional reaction if they do X, Y, or Z.

This isn't to say that they don't prize or even care deeply for their "property". But they get off on treating her like I do the chair in my den. I may leave it for months at a time to hang out on the deck in the summer, invite friends over to use it at will, sell it when I'm ready to redecorate, etc. I don't expect my chair to complain, display emotional distress, or in any other way attempt to restrict my behavior with regard to any of those decisions - and the same expectation holds true as the goal for the human "property" in this dynamic. It may be difficult to understand why some women would want to be used this way, but there are in fact some who do.