Difference between subs and slaves

[MasDom]

I turned 50 in March, and have been talking to people who incorporate power and pain into their encounters or relationships for more than 30 years. Out of the thousands of discussions in which I've participated, I would agree that the most meaningful are those held in private. The tendency to posture in public is widespread indeed.

In the interest of saving time (which is short at the moment), I'll respond to your question with a cut & paste from one of my posts on DB's Ownership thread, as follows.



The property thing doesn't interest me personally, but I'll be happy to pass on some of what I've heard from hetero guys on this subject.

The most frequent reason given for ID'ing as a Master of owned property is what I'll call the "badass factor." From a BDSM cultural perspective, Masters are frequently granted more respect by peers, and further, there is often a tremendous amount of pressure on submissives in certain circles to be collared - as sort of the ultimate way of having arrived in the BDSM sense.

"The Master designation gives me exalted status in the community, makes her happy, turns her on, and does fit at least some aspects of our relationship, so why the hell not?" That seems to be the gist of it, for most of the guys I've talked to privately. What is achieved with the M/s ID (relative to regular D/s) is: perceived status in the community, and enhanced arousal and satisfaction within the relationship.


The second most frequent reason given for ID'ing as a Master of owned property is what I'll call the "ultimate control goal." The guy on Top wants to retain the right to exert either latent or active control over every aspect of his mate's life, as well as their interaction with one another. In many cases, there are significant areas in which latent control never becomes active - and the relationships therefore bear marked de facto resemblence to other unions that do not ID as M/s. But the sense of "well, I could if I wanted to...." brings added comfort and satisfaction to all.


Another reason given for wanting to own women as property is what I'll call "ultimate objectification", or "the chair thing." The guys I have spoken to who embrace this dynamic seek access to a woman whom they can use in whatever manner they please, whenever they choose to, without having their behavior constrained by the obligations of marriage or their choices limited by the fact that the quality of the relationship might suffer from her disappointment or other emotional reaction if they do X, Y, or Z.

This isn't to say that they don't prize or even care deeply for their "property". But they get off on treating her like I do the chair in my den. I may leave it for months at a time to hang out on the deck in the summer, invite friends over to use it at will, sell it when I'm ready to redecorate, etc. I don't expect my chair to complain, display emotional distress, or in any other way attempt to restrict my behavior with regard to any of those decisions - and the same expectation holds true as the goal for the human "property" in this dynamic. It may be difficult to understand why some women would want to be used this way, but there are in fact some who do.

And thats the mentality that makes it less meaningful in the first place....
Yes there are some confused people who definitely deserve the title asshat.
Their perceptions are those of the retarded and dimwitted, people who seek fantasy instead of realizing how fucking pathetic they really are as a human being.

Submission and slave hood is a basis of all the sincerity, and understanding that builds one into both their role and relationship. Not some off the top submissal of some ditzy bimbo to any cold holier then thou Dominant wanna be who thinks the role is an easy way to get laid.

The relationship is one of trust and understanding based on the existence of a stable relationship between people who felt thing through to their deepest passions and limits.

 

[BiBunny]

Fuck it. I don't have the energy for this today. I have never mentioned jumping through hoops or tests of devotion. Never said anything remotely close. Haven't said that slaves were more devoted to the relationship. Said fuck-all about budgets, careers, or any fucking thing other than discussing power and submission in the limited scope of comparing subs to slaves. Either I'm being obtuse or people are just hell-bent on seeing the message they want. Either way, I honestly don't have the necessary give a fuck right now.

My apologies for this rant. Today has basically shit on me from top to bottom and my care factor is exceedingly low. I think I used up what I had in my last round of replies. Y'all have fun talking about how there is no difference.

Never mind. Fuck it. Not going to say what I wanted to say because I'm really, really touchy right now and on a hair-trigger at the moment. But there's a reason hetero Doms grate on my nerves sometimes.

There's too much testosterone in this room. Where the fuck is Netzach?

 

[midwestyankee]

There's too much testosterone in this room. Where the fuck is Netzach?

She's in the other room talking about cheese with a couple of hetero doms.

 

[EmpressFi]

She's in the other room talking about cheese with a couple of hetero doms.

I was about to say she's in the other room talking about cheese and encouraging my Master to flirt

 

[BiBunny]

She's in the other room talking about cheese with a couple of hetero doms.

I was about to say she's in the other room talking about cheese and encouraging my Master to flirt

I just noticed that. I'm enjoying the back-and-forth.

 

[intothewoods]

I haven't read the entire thread so my comment may be irrelevant at this point..but I shall share it anyway.

Defining sub and slave are like trying to define the color red. As I drove home from work today I was behind three red vehicles. They were all different shades of red but they were distinctly red.

I don't understand this obsession with definitions or labels, they really serve no purpose.

Dude. This is what I keep saying. Not that there's no difference. But slave x is just as different from slave y as sub y.

Plus, sorry, but I still contend that a slave can always walk out the door. The other thing is that it's not as though my retention of a safeword is some huge point in my relationship. It's just as much the case that Mister Man is completely satisfied by spanking and boinking, and has no particular interest in amping up the volume. Well, not none. But it's not the highest priority in his life.

 

[intothewoods]

And thats the mentality that makes it less meaningful in the first place....
Yes there are some confused people who definitely deserve the title asshat.
Their perceptions are those of the retarded and dimwitted, people who seek fantasy instead of realizing how fucking pathetic they really are as a human being.

Submission and slave hood is a basis of all the sincerity, and understanding that builds one into both their role and relationship. Not some off the top submissal of some ditzy bimbo to any cold holier then thou Dominant wanna be who thinks the role is an easy way to get laid.

The relationship is one of trust and understanding based on the existence of a stable relationship between people who felt thing through to their deepest passions and limits.

Let's not lump the retarded in with asshats. Not really fair to the retarded.


p.s. my knickers ARE officially in a bunch.


Good night, folks! I'll be here all week.

 

[Bandit58]

If what you do makes your PYL happy, then what business do any random people on the Internet have trying to gauge your level of devotion by your actions, your use or non-use of limits and safeword, or what you call yourself? Only the people in the relationship (and perhaps some of their closest friends) know what's in their hearts.

I BiBunny!

Early on in our relationship, I started feeling insecure after reading some threads on collarme *duh how stupid was I* Sir set me straight, He told me that I make Him very happy, that I'm doing everything He asks of me (and more apparently) and that He loves me very much and that's all that matters. We have our little jokes about being kicked out of the "real BDSMers club".

 

[ownedsubgal]

I was wondering when somebody would bring that up and figured it would be either you or the evil critter known as bi-bunny.

i read that comment of itw, but really didn't want to get into that whole debate. but it's commonly believed (esp. by those who are not M/s and are averse to the idea of M/s in general) that all slaves have the option to "walk away" or to "take back their consent", and if you deny that such a thing is a possibility in your dynamic, you're either outright lying/posturing or living in some fairyworld. i've learned that if when one has such a belief, there's really not much i can do to change it. all i can do is share the reality of my world and relationship (and that of many other slaves btw), and reiterate that for us, terminating the relationship, walking away, taking back consent, etc., are just NOT options. despite the words printed in a law book.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Plus, sorry, but I still contend that a slave can always walk out the door.

That is your right to believe, but also be aware it is a belief you hold from your own perspective, your own limits, not necessarily the reality and belief shared by those who live it and in deciding to live it, fully comprehended and thought about the consequences before taking the final step of such a commitment. To me it is like people I have met who just before walking down the aisle remark that they can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out....to me that is not fully committing to the relationship as usually intended, it is already having one foot out the door ready to run while going through the motions of marriage and commitment for appearance sake...it rarely works when approached or viewed that way as at least one was not making a commitment in the first place.

Catalina

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

Catalina_Francisco: That is your right to believe, but also be aware it is a belief you hold from your own perspective, your own limits, not necessarily the reality and belief shared by those who live it and in deciding to live it, fully comprehended and thought about the consequences before taking the final step of such a commitment. To me it is like people I have met who just before walking down the aisle remark that they can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out....to me that is not fully committing to the relationship as usually intended, it is already having one foot out the door ready to run while going through the motions of marriage and commitment for appearance sake...it rarely works when approached or viewed that way as at least one was not making a commitment in the first place.


i read that comment of itw, but really didn't want to get into that whole debate. but it's commonly believed (esp. by those who are not M/s and are averse to the idea of M/s in general) that all slaves have the option to "walk away" or to "take back their consent", and if you deny that such a thing is a possibility in your dynamic, you're either outright lying/posturing or living in some fairyworld. i've learned that if when one has such a belief, there's really not much i can do to change it. all i can do is share the reality of my world and relationship (and that of many other slaves btw), and reiterate that for us, terminating the relationship, walking away, taking back consent, etc., are just NOT options. despite the words printed in a law book.

Very well said ladies. While I am not a slave yet, I am in training to become Daddy's slave. That said, he has reminded that I can't just walk away from him- he owns me- it's not something that I would even dream of. That however, goes back to level of committment from slave, in comparison to that of a submissive.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Very well said ladies. While I am not a slave yet, I am in training to become Daddy's slave. That said, he has reminded that I can't just walk away from him- he owns me- it's not something that I would even dream of. That however, goes back to level of committment from slave, in comparison to that of a submissive.

I guess I just don't like door mats.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

I guess I just don't like door mats.

Door mat? As in being a slave means you are? Thats just as preposterous a statement as feeling like you are jumping through hoops to please the person that owns you. It's not hoop jumping or being a doormat, its called committment and devotion- committment to the relationship and devotion to the person whose hands you have placed your mind, body and soul in.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Door mat? As in being a slave means you are? Thats just as preposterous a statement as feeling like you are jumping through hoops to please the person that owns you. It's not hoop jumping or being a doormat, its called committment and devotion- committment to the relationship and devotion to the person whose hands you have placed your mind, body and soul in.

First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

i read that comment of itw, but really didn't want to get into that whole debate. but it's commonly believed (esp. by those who are not M/s and are averse to the idea of M/s in general) that all slaves have the option to "walk away" or to "take back their consent", and if you deny that such a thing is a possibility in your dynamic, you're either outright lying/posturing or living in some fairyworld. i've learned that if when one has such a belief, there's really not much i can do to change it. all i can do is share the reality of my world and relationship (and that of many other slaves btw), and reiterate that for us, terminating the relationship, walking away, taking back consent, etc., are just NOT options. despite the words printed in a law book.

Even the case of mental and physical abuse? To the point of being afraid for you physical well being?

 

[ecstaticsub]

This has been a very interesting discussion and it has made me really ponder in my own mind about the differences, if any do exist.

I asked about whether they was a difference in committment/devotion with Masters vs Dominants for a reason.

I think in my mind it comes down to more a difference in a M/s relationship as a whole compared a D/s relationship as a whole. It's not my committment or devotion to submission, nor my Daddy's commitment or devotion to domination that makes me a submissive instead of a slave but more the entire all encompassing dynamics of a D/s relationship compared to a M/s relationship.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

This has been a very interesting discussion and it has made me really ponder in my own mind about the differences, if any do exist.

I asked about whether they was a difference in committment/devotion with Masters vs Dominants for a reason.

I think in my mind it comes down to more a difference in a M/s relationship as a whole compared a D/s relationship as a whole. It's not my committment or devotion to submission, nor my Daddy's commitment or devotion to domination that makes me a submissive instead of a slave but more the entire all encompassing dynamics of a D/s relationship compared to a M/s relationship.

What does it matter? You and Him have your own dynamic that fits you and you're happy with it. Why label it?

The thing that gets me is those who fall all over themselves to show that they as a pyl (or the PYL tries to show that their pyl is) "subbier than thou".

I'm not even into the idea of TPE, no matter how you define it because frankly, I know I'm human and may need my pyl to help me pull my head out of my ass. In my book, slave could never even think to do that.

 

[intothewoods]

That is your right to believe, but also be aware it is a belief you hold from your own perspective, your own limits, not necessarily the reality and belief shared by those who live it and in deciding to live it, fully comprehended and thought about the consequences before taking the final step of such a commitment. To me it is like people I have met who just before walking down the aisle remark that they can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out....to me that is not fully committing to the relationship as usually intended, it is already having one foot out the door ready to run while going through the motions of marriage and commitment for appearance sake...it rarely works when approached or viewed that way as at least one was not making a commitment in the first place.

Catalina

i read that comment of itw, but really didn't want to get into that whole debate. but it's commonly believed (esp. by those who are not M/s and are averse to the idea of M/s in general) that all slaves have the option to "walk away" or to "take back their consent", and if you deny that such a thing is a possibility in your dynamic, you're either outright lying/posturing or living in some fairyworld. i've learned that if when one has such a belief, there's really not much i can do to change it. all i can do is share the reality of my world and relationship (and that of many other slaves btw), and reiterate that for us, terminating the relationship, walking away, taking back consent, etc., are just NOT options. despite the words printed in a law book.

I don't think I actually disagree with either of you. I fully believe that seriously committed slaves, and those seriously committing to marriage for that matter, go in thinking this is a lifelong commitment, and one that cannot be taken back. My point is not that it's so easy, but that it is a commitment that is only as serious, real, iron-clad, whatever, as the indvividuals who make it.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

And, no, this is not dick-waving,

You've been dick-waving all along - you and mis posting to each other while she's there in Va, etc, etc. I know you are proud of her and knowing her as well I do, you have alot to be proud of. She is a very great woman and has accomplished alot - this is not about you and her so much as it about how much you flaunt it.
You signature file says she belongs to you, hers says she belongs to you - fine. Great, glad for you but damn man if you two are in such constant contact then why do you need to carry it on here?

and this is not saying that slaves are better than submissives. Just saying that a TPE is a much more serious commitment than a basic submission.

I disagree. Getting a pyl who is headstrong, intelligent and independent to submit is more of a challenge and more rewarding - you got the pyl to change their basic nature for YOU. Plus, it would be like having a wild animal (tiger for example) for a pet; may act docile and meek most of the time but can still turn on you. Just ask Seigfried (sp?) and Roy.

With a TPE, all of that is gone.

Neither of my girls have a safeword. Both voluntarily gave their safeword up, expressing the fact that they trust me to know when they have had to much. in at least one case, MIS wished bitterly for a safeword as she thought she'd reached her limit with a single-tail, and, when I continued, realised that she hadn't. She thanked me later for continuing, as the part that came after that point was truly remarkable for her.

And what if you become abusive to the point of where they were afraid for their physical well being?

The slaves I know have plenty of identity. I don't go in for the hard objectification thing though, so my girls have their own identities. I have told them many times that I do not want a drone, or a mindless yes-girl. If I want that, I'll get a dog.
<snip>

I'll paraphrase Evil_Geoff here. A good slave is like a cruise missile. You point her in a direction, give her a job, and let her do her job. In short, a good slave does not need to be micromanaged. She serves to the best of her ability because she wants to, and part of that is learning your needs in and out. I actually have less to worry about with viv as my slave than I did with her as my sub.

Do you not see the contradiction in that post? A cruise missile is a mindless drone. It carries out a set of simplified instructions and allows for no deviation. No mid-course correction due to changes in the tactical situation w/o outside interference. Even a so called guided missile needs some sort of outside source of direction.

 

[intothewoods]

I guess I just don't like door mats.

Well, that was constructive.



Look. The terms slave and submissive are both a label for individuals and relationships. In my mind, as the OP asked about the difference between a slave and a submissive, I was thinking in terms of the individual. A slave has no limits. A submissive typically does. Most people in an M/s relationship would not describe their relationship as "casual," even if in reality it might be (I'm referring to people who are collared within a day of meeting or something like that). In contrast, a D/s relationship may be in the context of marriage, living together, the occasional fuck buddy, the occasional play partner, dating, and on and on.

It's ridiculous to say a lifelong slave and a lifelong submissive are any more or less devoted to their partners. Are they more devoted to their submission? Eh, maybe. Again, depends on the individuals involved.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Well, that was constructive.



Look. The terms slave and submissive are both a label for individuals and relationships. In my mind, as the OP asked about the difference between a slave and a submissive, I was thinking in terms of the individual. A slave has no limits. A submissive typically does. Most people in an M/s relationship would not describe their relationship as "casual," even if in reality it might be (I'm referring to people who are collared within a day of meeting or something like that). In contrast, a D/s relationship may be in the context of marriage, living together, the occasional fuck buddy, the occasional play partner, dating, and on and on.

It's ridiculous to say a lifelong slave and a lifelong submissive are any more or less devoted to their partners. Are they more devoted to their submission? Eh, maybe. Again, depends on the individuals involved.

I'm just tired of all the "subbier than thou"s. PYLs and pyls posturing to adorn themselves or their pyls with the sub/slave of the year award is just making my stomach churn.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don't think I actually disagree with either of you. I fully believe that seriously committed slaves, and those seriously committing to marriage for that matter, go in thinking this is a lifelong commitment, and one that cannot be taken back. My point is not that it's so easy, but that it is a commitment that is only as serious, real, iron-clad, whatever, as the indvividuals who make it.

well imo it is about more than commitment. that is why i don't agree with the argument that a slave is more devoted or committed than one who is not owned, because that is not what defines the M/s dynamic in my book. for an Owner, it is about responsibility and control. understanding what it means to be responsible for another human being, and accepting that responsibility. but they also need the desire and means to actively control that person, to bend or force them to their will if necessary, to shape their destiny. for the slave, it is about acceptance. truly accepting way deep down that you are no longer your own person, and that you belong to another. and that path to acceptance can be a long and bloody one.

now, let's use the analogy of modern marriage. if i were unowned and taking vows of marriage, i would view it as a lifelong commitment, but that's just it...it'd be a commitment. a vow. a promise. in the back of my mind, i would recognize the right i would have to terminate the relationship (divorce) if things got just that bad. there would always be that "break glass in case of emergency" ax there.

now as a slave otoh, my commitment, my vows, my promises alone are not what keep me bound to the relationship. if they were, then there would be a little piece of me that would always see a way out. the reason that i can see no way out is because of my Master himself, his active control over me and my life, his unwillingness to release me for any reason, the measures he has taken (financially, legally, physically, etc.) to keep me tied to him and to make the idea of successfully leaving him seem about as realistic as me walking on the moon someday.

 

[ecstaticsub]

What does it matter? You and Him have your own dynamic that fits you and you're happy with it. Why label it?

The thing that gets me is those who fall all over themselves to show that they as a pyl (or the PYL tries to show that their pyl is) "subbier than thou".

I'm not even into the idea of TPE, no matter how you define it because frankly, I know I'm human and may need my pyl to help me pull my head out of my ass. In my book, slave could never even think to do that.

Chill out. I, certainly have never implied I was or wasn't "subbier than thou".

Whether I am a slave or submissive doesn't really matter to me. I was just making conversation

 

[ownedsubgal]

Even the case of mental and physical abuse? To the point of being afraid for you physical well being?

yes, in even in those cases. some folks find security and are better able to thrive in their submission and in the relationship when there is a way out, when there are caveats, when it is "i am his completely unless __" or "i would never leave him except if ___"....and for others like myself, we find that security and peace and are better able to grow when we know that the door is locked, barred, and soddered shut.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm just tired of all the "subbier than thou"s. PYLs and pyls posturing to adorn themselves or their pyls with the sub/slave of the year award is just making my stomach churn.

I hear you, but everyone gets tired of a lot of things around here. At the end of the day, it's not really anyone else's business how people want to live their lives. It's always a fine line on a message board, because many of us talk about our lives in pretty varying levels of intimate detail. I've got my ideas about right, wrong and who the hell cares, and so do most others. But you really can't let it bother you that much. It's a message board.

I was just saying the same thing at my local group's get together recently. Something I said to be funny eight zillion months ago apparently did not go over so well with someone. I don't even remember saying it. Do I want to be rude? No. I feel kinda shitty that I wasn't more careful about choosing my words. But ya know, at the end of the day, all I can do is say, sorry, be polite and move on. It's just a munch. It's just a message board. Whadya gonna do?