Disinterested Partners: The Flip Side

[Eilan]

What an amazing surprise when the marriage ended, (I, of course, being a "frigid bitch,") and I realized in the subsuquent relationship, that it wasn't that I loathed sex, just that I loathed sex with him.

And that I was very, very much NOT broken.

Thanks for contributing, Lyrical Fool.

Sometimes I wish that I'd discovered something like Lit long before things started to go south. It's nice being able to bounce ideas off of people.

I don’t know…and maybe someone could shed light…I wonder now if it was some form of punishment? WITHHOLDING the sex? I know it wasn’t consiously deliberate…but now I’m wondering…was there more to it?

Good question, and that's one reason why I started this thread. Just because I think there's often a lot more to these issues than we realize.

 

[Eilan]

A couple of questions that I think are appropriate for this thread:

--How does one go about determining when to keep quiet about something (and risk harboring resentment) and when to communicate (and risk hurting a partner's feelings)?

--Can a couple be considered happily married if one partner is sexually unfulfilled? (This is inspired by certain threads on other Lit boards.)

 

[bobsgirl]

--Can a couple be considered happily married if one partner is sexually unfulfilled? (This is inspired by certain threads on other Lit boards.)

Maybe in the short term, but believe me, if one of the partners is sexually unfulfilled, and both partners don't work to find a solution, then things get bad really fast.

Now if that "unfulfillment" isn't a problem for the one who is unfulfilled, then I suppose you could find a common ground for a reasonably happy marriage.

If one partner is unfulfilled and is fine with that, then wouldn't the other partner then also become unfulfilled, assuming they were in a loving marriage? Oy, things get complicated so fast around here...

 

[cloakedlover]

Well, how about pleasantly married?

I have been on both sides here, too. Unfortunately right now I am straddling the fence. I want it badly with him; but I only want it if it's great. How about that? I'm a little - oops, I mean WAY - over the mediocre sessions.

It seems he wants to please me, but doesn't really want to talk about how to go about it or where the research is at...and he has a real live doll to play with. Plus, there never seems to be enough time to really have a discussion or delve into serious practice. In all honesty maybe I haven't approached him the right way about it - so it's my fault too.

I, on the other hand, would love for him to take control of the situation and be proactive about various aspects of our marriage, including our sex life. But I do not want to come off as a nag or make him resent that I find things lacking. (This is the part where people likely begin to misinterpret and he could as well).

I really appreciate this thread - it is a very real concern and occurs throughout relationships for many different reasons. So many rash(that's really not the word I had in mind - but it'll have to do) observers would just say be done with it. Which is not always the answer.

I think others in or from similar situations would be well-served to contribute. I know I apparently need further education in this department and am not afraid to ask for advice.

 

[TBKahuna123]

--How does one go about determining when to keep quiet about something (and risk harboring resentment) and when to communicate (and risk hurting a partner's feelings)?

Easy, never keep quiet! I've never had a good experience where I've kept something bottled up from my wife. Yeah this has led to some hurt feelings, on both our parts, but those feelings fade quickly in the desire to work out the problem. This desire is only possible because we don't keep things from each other. I'm a firm believer in total openness.

--Can a couple be considered happily married if one partner is sexually unfulfilled? (This is inspired by certain threads on other Lit boards.)

Hmm....

I think this depends on a lot of factors. While a marriage may not be based upon sex(at least a healthy one), physical intimacy is a major part of any successful relationship. I could probably see living with a less than perfect sex life, as long as there was effort to keep the physical intimacy in the relationship. It would defintiely run the risk though of becoming a problem. Sexual desires aren't just a mental or physical thing, they're an instinctive trait. You can rechannel those desires into other forms of physical intimacy, but you can't supress them altogether.

It also bears the question, what is considered unfilfilled? I may have a real desire to sleep with two women, but my wife may be totally against the idea. So if our sex life is hot and wild, yet there is something I desire that she won't do, does that make me unfulfilled? Some guys might say yes, but to me that's selfish and shortsighted. Fulfillment doesn't come from the realization of all your fantasies, but from a true and satisfying connection with your partner. At least that's how I view it.

I could live without all my fantasies being fulfilled, but I couldn't live without that physical intimacy connection.

 

[Eilan]

Oy, things get complicated so fast around here...

I agree.

Easy, never keep quiet! I've never had a good experience where I've kept something bottled up from my wife. Yeah this has led to some hurt feelings, on both our parts, but those feelings fade quickly in the desire to work out the problem. This desire is only possible because we don't keep things from each other. I'm a firm believer in total openness.

The problem that I've had in the past is that when I haven't kept my mouth shut, I've caused hurt feelings. I'm sure some of that has to do with my, um, delivery at times. I've improved on this quite a bit, though.

Well, how about pleasantly married?

Good question. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I think with my ex and me, there were ways in which we started taking each other for granted both in and out of the bedroom. It's hard to say which came first in our marriage, but there was a point in which he was less attentive to my needs, and I was less enthusiastic about taking care of his.

 

[TBKahuna123]

It's hard to say which came first in our marriage, but there was a point in which he was less attentive to my needs, and I was less enthusiastic about taking care of his.

Ahhh but isn't this a product of not talking about it? It's a vicious circle.

I understand the fear of hurt feelings. I think it is to a point, inevitable when you are dealing with emotional issues between people who care about each other. But I think that if you set a precedence of openness, that you expect your partner to be as open with you as you are with them, that those hurt feelings fade very quickly when a resolution is reached. I know for my part I'm an oversensitive person, so I often have hurt feelings when my wife brings up a problem. That's my initial reaction, but as we talk things through those hurt feelings are replaced with a feeling of closeness when we reach a solution.

Plus usually when my feelings get hurt, it's because I know she's right.

 

[Eilan]

Ahhh but isn't this a product of not talking about it? It's a vicious circle.

Yeah. I'd stop overanalyzing it, but I'm not too keen on repeating the mistakes the second time around.

Of course, I'm probably making different mistakes now.

 

[silverwhisper]

eilan queried
how does one go about determining when to keep quiet about something (and risk harboring resentment) and when to communicate (and risk hurting a partner's feelings)?

that's a fine line that some people cavort right across w/ nary a second glance, IMX. i think that it's entirely situation-dependent. w/ minor things, i don't voice my reaction if i can see that it's merely a function of temporary stress (sleep deprivation, fatigue, frustration w/ something else being displaced, etc): i don't sweat the small stuff. for big stuff, i wait until 2 things have occurred: 1) i can discuss it calmly and rationally, and 2) i believe she's in a state where she's able to respond to it in the same way.

eilan queried
can a couple be considered happily married if one partner is sexually unfulfilled?

IMHO, no. is this partially b/c i'm a perv and a pig? quite possibly, and i'll own up to that now, but i'm a sexual creature, as are we all. sex is, for me, the second most intimate form of communication possible. if there's a problem in the sexual aspect of a relationship, i generally believe it's symptomatic of something else. to me, a healthy relationship has sex as a component, barring certain kind of medical conditions of course.

ed

 

[bobsgirl]

...
IMHO, no. is this partially b/c i'm a perv and a pig? quite possibly, and i'll own up to that now, but i'm a sexual creature, as are we all. sex is, for me, the second most intimate form of communication possible. if there's a problem in the sexual aspect of a relationship, i generally believe it's symptomatic of something else. to me, a healthy relationship has sex as a component, barring certain kind of medical conditions of course.

ed

I tend to have this point of view also. I would find marriage without sex to be very unsatisfactory. And I do have significant health issues. IMHO, some sort of sexual activity is always possible, even if it's not intercourse.

Then again, I could just be a perv too, and have no idea what I'm talking about...

 

[TBKahuna123]

Yeah. I'd stop overanalyzing it, but I'm not too keen on repeating the mistakes the second time around.

Of course, I'm probably making different mistakes now.

Only if you don't talk about things.

Seriously though, you may not make those same mistakes, but your husband is also a different creature from your ex, with different sensibilities and sensitivities. And you'll always make mistakes, it's inevitable. You'd thinkt hat after 12 years I'd have figured out everything I should and shouldn't do, but I still fuck up on a fairly regular basis and do something that upsets my wife. Sure my feelings get hurt when she brings it up and I get defensive, because that's my normal reaction to things like that, but as I said those feelings fade quickly when the issue is resolved.

The only time I really get pissed is when I make an honest effort to change something and she dwells on it, or when she brings up something she's kept quiet about for a long time. The two go hand in hand. My wife will sometimes bottle it up until she is so frustrated and then she doesn't ahve the patience to allow me the time needed to change a behavior that is bothering her because she's so frustrated. That is part of that vicious circle I talked about. Personally, I'd rather have the hurt feelings for an hour or two.

 

[Eilan]

Only if you don't talk about things.

Seriously though, you may not make those same mistakes, but your husband is also a different creature from your ex, with different sensibilities and sensitivities. And you'll always make mistakes, it's inevitable. You'd thinkt hat after 12 years I'd have figured out everything I should and shouldn't do, but I still fuck up on a fairly regular basis and do something that upsets my wife. Sure my feelings get hurt when she brings it up and I get defensive, because that's my normal reaction to things like that, but as I said those feelings fade quickly when the issue is resolved.

The only time I really get pissed is when I make an honest effort to change something and she dwells on it, or when she brings up something she's kept quiet about for a long time. The two go hand in hand. My wife will sometimes bottle it up until she is so frustrated and then she doesn't ahve the patience to allow me the time needed to change a behavior that is bothering her because she's so frustrated. That is part of that vicious circle I talked about. Personally, I'd rather have the hurt feelings for an hour or two.

Parts of your post are similar to another thread that I'm thinking about starting.

IMHO, no. is this partially b/c i'm a perv and a pig? quite possibly, and i'll own up to that now, but i'm a sexual creature, as are we all. sex is, for me, the second most intimate form of communication possible. if there's a problem in the sexual aspect of a relationship, i generally believe it's symptomatic of something else. to me, a healthy relationship has sex as a component, barring certain kind of medical conditions of course.

I'm inclined to agree with you and bobsgirl on this. And I definitely believe in the boldfaced part of your quote.

For temporary reasons, such as injury or illness, I think it's possible, but in the long-term, I'm not so sure.

 

[cloakedlover]

I guess I was reading "unfulfilled" in a different manner than no sex. However, both can be trying, perhaps even with equally devastating consequences.

I had made mention that I would prefer to not mess around with humdrum sex - but I should have clarified it further. If DH and I were actually working towards a sexual ephiphany through mutual focus and practice, that I would accept happily.

IMX one of the hardest things for people is to make themselves vulnerable to others, even their spouses, at times. The early part of our marriage was riddled with vocal snideness for whatever reason - we were strong-willed and defiantly independent. It took awhile for us to cross that bridge. Now I'm nervous mentioning things, which makes it difficult to get the response I desire. I'll have to be the one to bring it up and probably let him have some time to absorb it and see what develops. Truthfully, as long as I can broach the topic at an optimal and appropriate moment I should be able to stave of his feeling of inadequacy, I hope. I'll see and post back.

 

[TBKahuna123]

sex is, for me, the second most intimate form of communication possible. if there's a problem in the sexual aspect of a relationship, i generally believe it's symptomatic of something else. to me, a healthy relationship has sex as a component, barring certain kind of medical conditions of course.

ed

I will also agree with you on this. I think that very rarely does a purely sexual problem spill over into the other aspects of a marriage, but non-sexual tensions almost always manifest themselves in the bedroom.

 

[bobsgirl]

I was thinking about this this morning. If one of the partners is in one of those "dry spells", should they--okay, okay, *I*--engage in sexual activity if the biggest part of why is because I want to please my husband? I don't mean engage grudgingly--it would be with a willing spirit, but if we didn't have sex, I wouldn't miss it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I feel pretty much apathetic right now about sex (I know, I know, what the heck am I doing at Lit??) but does that mean my husband should "go without", for lack of a better term?

 

[TBKahuna123]

I was thinking about this this morning. If one of the partners is in one of those "dry spells", should they--okay, okay, *I*--engage in sexual activity if the biggest part of why is because I want to please my husband? I don't mean engage grudgingly--it would be with a willing spirit, but if we didn't have sex, I wouldn't miss it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I feel pretty much apathetic right now about sex (I know, I know, what the heck am I doing at Lit??) but does that mean my husband should "go without", for lack of a better term?

OK, I'm REALLY torn on this issue. If you can get yourself aroused and engage willingly and fully in sexual activity, I would say yes. I say that because that's what I would do if I were in that situation. Now keep in mind, I said if you can get yourself aroused and be willing to fully engage, not just give in and have sex. There's a difference between not craving sex and not wanting to have sex. One is an absence of arousal, the other is an aversion to arousal.

I would never want my wife to give in if she weren't in the mood. I won't engage if I'm not in the mood either, because I think that cheapens the experience and it certainly isn't satisfying. If however I could arouse myself, even if I didn't have the natural inclination to initiate sex, I would do so because I want her to be happy.

Did that make any sense? I know it's only a subtle difference, but at the same time I think it's a profound one.

 

[Eilan]

I guess I was reading "unfulfilled" in a different manner than no sex.

I think it's open to interpretation.

 

[flamesofdesire]

I was thinking about this this morning. If one of the partners is in one of those "dry spells", should they--okay, okay, *I*--engage in sexual activity if the biggest part of why is because I want to please my husband? I don't mean engage grudgingly--it would be with a willing spirit, but if we didn't have sex, I wouldn't miss it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I feel pretty much apathetic right now about sex (I know, I know, what the heck am I doing at Lit??) but does that mean my husband should "go without", for lack of a better term?

Hi, I know I'm new here, so I hope it's okay if I jump in on this conversation.
I had a period of time several years ago where I couldn't care less about sex, yet I would have sex with him at least once a week. It's not that it was repulsive or anything, I just didn't care about it and there was nothing great about it to make me desire more.
But I guess I felt that he shouldn't have to suffer a sexless marriage.
Marriage is giving of yourselves to the other, and I think a person should want to please the other unselfishly when they can.
I would never initiate sex, and I think he realized I wasn't real interested because he didn't push for it more than once a week or so.
I figured I can do it, and it will make him happy, so why not?

Now, I want sex again,(all the time) and I think I'm making him push the envelope on how many times he can do it in a week. So now it's his turn !

 

[bobsgirl]

OK, I'm REALLY torn on this issue. If you can get yourself aroused and engage willingly and fully in sexual activity, I would say yes. I say that because that's what I would do if I were in that situation. Now keep in mind, I said if you can get yourself aroused and be willing to fully engage, not just give in and have sex. There's a difference between not craving sex and not wanting to have sex. One is an absence of arousal, the other is an aversion to arousal.

I would never want my wife to give in if she weren't in the mood. I won't engage if I'm not in the mood either, because I think that cheapens the experience and it certainly isn't satisfying. If however I could arouse myself, even if I didn't have the natural inclination to initiate sex, I would do so because I want her to be happy.

Did that make any sense? I know it's only a subtle difference, but at the same time I think it's a profound one.

I agree, it's a subtle but huge difference. I'm feeling an apathy towards sex, not an aversion. I'd engage willingly (not sure if "aroused" is the right word. My enjoyment would come from his pleasure.) if HE would initiate, but his preference is for me to initiate most of the time. And I'm not real interested in initiating. To compound this we have a history of having a very hard time talking about the things that matter most. I don't know why we have so much trouble talking about sex, but we do.

And the longer the dry spell hangs on, the harder it is to get back into a satisfying routine for both of us.

 

[silverwhisper]

flamesofdesire: welcome to the thread. :>

bobsgirl: by "going without" what do you mean? no masturbation? or as much of that as he wants as long as nobody else is involved? or something else?

ed

 

[Eilan]

Hi, I know I'm new here, so I hope it's okay if I jump in on this conversation.
I had a period of time several years ago where I couldn't care less about sex, yet I would have sex with him at least once a week. It's not that it was repulsive or anything, I just didn't care about it and there was nothing great about it to make me desire more.
But I guess I felt that he shouldn't have to suffer a sexless marriage.
Marriage is giving of yourselves to the other, and I think a person should want to please the other unselfishly when they can.
I would never initiate sex, and I think he realized I wasn't real interested because he didn't push for it more than once a week or so.
I figured I can do it, and it will make him happy, so why not?

Now, I want sex again,(all the time) and I think I'm making him push the envelope on how many times he can do it in a week. So now it's his turn !

Welcome to the thread and to Lit, flamesofdesire.

What do you think brought about the change in attitude(?) or desire for you?

 

[bobsgirl]

Hi, I know I'm new here, so I hope it's okay if I jump in on this conversation.
I had a period of time several years ago where I couldn't care less about sex, yet I would have sex with him at least once a week. It's not that it was repulsive or anything, I just didn't care about it and there was nothing great about it to make me desire more.
But I guess I felt that he shouldn't have to suffer a sexless marriage.
Marriage is giving of yourselves to the other, and I think a person should want to please the other unselfishly when they can.
I would never initiate sex, and I think he realized I wasn't real interested because he didn't push for it more than once a week or so.
I figured I can do it, and it will make him happy, so why not?

Now, I want sex again,(all the time) and I think I'm making him push the envelope on how many times he can do it in a week. So now it's his turn !

Welcome to Lit, flames!

And you know what, this is precisely how I feel. You hit it right on. It gives me a little hope that you found it to be a temporary situation. I guess I just have to be patient.

 

[bobsgirl]

flamesofdesire: welcome to the thread. :>

bobsgirl: by "going without" what do you mean? no masturbation? or as much of that as he wants as long as nobody else is involved? or something else?

ed

Oh no, heavens no. Masturbation is welcomed and encouraged! But I look at the two activities (sex with a spouse and masturbation) as filling two different needs.

I was more concerned that he would start to feel like I was rejecting him. Which I'm not, at all.

 

[silverwhisper]

BG, can you pinpoint when your apathy kicked in? perhaps if you could do that, you might be able to figure out what's going on? maybe it's work? something else weighing on your mind? just the "blahs"?

ed

 

[cloakedlover]

There was one time around the 5th or 7th year of our marriage I had a serious dry spell for nearly a year or so. I'm sure he could tell me exact dates, in fact - jk. I didn't want any intercourse whatsoever. Ah, but masturbating was fine. In fact, I felt seriously guilty for just wanting to do it with myself and not with him - even though I've never been able to get a true orgasm out of gratifying myself - which makes it more like self gratificationless. How 'bout that - that's basically saying, "I don't want to do it with you, who can't make me cum; however, I want to do it by myself, though I can't make me cum." Great, seems a bit sadistic to me now.

I'll say SW makes a good point with uncovering the real issues. It may take some real time and effort to think through what's going on. Some issues may even be hard for you to extrapolate from others or even own up to. Just depends on the person.

TBK123: If you can get yourself aroused and engage willingly and fully in sexual activity, I would say yes. I say that because that's what I would do if I were in that situation.

Reminds of the old fake it 'til you feel it mantra. Back then I tried that method to get in the mood and work it, but it was VERY VERY difficult and I got a little resentful. But everyone responds in their own way. Finally, the dry spell ended when I got caught masturbating and he sort of got me back into the groove of things.

But at least you know it happens and people get past it.