Do Sadists Generally Preffer Submissives to Masochists?

[AngelicAssassin]

Man, that sure looks like fun.

Right up to the point you come around a corner and find power lines strung across the river.

i've done this in a pigboat as well with Ranger candidates out of Benning, cargo doors open, and smiling at the whooping, laughing, and sometimes screaming from the occupants.

Take them to the edge, nudge, then hold on tight and don't let go.

 

[John Doe]

I wouldn't.

I'll clarify that.

What I mean is, I wouldn't necessarily prefer someone non-masochistic, although that would be fun too.

 

[cati]

My two cents.

The only reason I can see to whipping a slave just because he/she is a slave is to remind them of their position. I've only met one online "whacked out Dom" who mentioned that this is something he would do should I have become his slave.
This type of behaviour is purely sadistic.

I have come to understand too, that a true sadist prefers to play with a partner who is purely masochistic (pain slut). I'm not sure that they are concerned with how the maso. bottom feels or if she even enjoys the pain. The sadist wants only to have his psychological needs met and that is by inflicting pain on another.
Most sadists take their "game" very seriously. A non-masochistic submissive would be treading on dangerous ground, should she decide to "bottom" to such a Dominant. Of course he could decide to be gentle with her, but then what's the point?
___________________________

I personally believe that to be truly submissive to one's Dominant one has to be a masochist in some form or another, esp in a TPE relationship.
While emotional masochism in BDSM terms is defined as involvement in humiliation or degradation, I feel emotional masochism goes far deeper than that.
From a "vanilla" Counsellor's perspective... allowing ones partner to Dominate and control the relationship is considered emotional abuse. Ok then, what does that say about us? Is anyone going to admit that they are in a so called abusive relationship by society's standards? Or should we not compare our two worlds?

 

[cati]

I found the answer to my own question and that is our credo "Safe, Sane and Consensual. In a abusive and I use the term lightly, relationship there is no consent. Not that I'm saying we consent to any sort of abuse.
Any thoughts?

 

[Kajira Callista]

I found the answer to my own question and that is our credo "Safe, Sane and Consensual. In a abusive and I use the term lightly, relationship there is no consent. Not that I'm saying we consent to any sort of abuse.
Any thoughts?

that is exactly what we do.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Cati:
"I have come to understand too, that a true sadist prefers to play with a partner who is purely masochistic (pain slut). I'm not sure that they are concerned with how the maso. bottom feels or if she even enjoys the pain. The sadist wants only to have his psychological needs met and that is by inflicting pain on another."

You don't believe, then, that it might feed into a Sadist's desires to inflict pain on on someone who might not be as eager to endure pain (be it physical or emotional,) as the masochist?

I have always thought that was what appealed to people like Hitler, and other such historical figures.

Cati:
"I personally believe that to be truly submissive to one's Dominant one has to be a masochist in some form or another, esp in a TPE relationship.
While emotional masochism in BDSM terms is defined as involvement in humiliation or degradation, I feel emotional masochism goes far deeper than that."

I find your first sentence here particularly confusing. Maybe it is the wording, but it seems to imply that Dominants are all Sadists, and Submissives are all Masochists. Am I following you? I would hate to misinterpret, but if this is what you are stating, I strongly disagree. Many vanillas are involved in a d/s relationship and not even conscious of it. I would personally see my ideal mate as a take charge, strong, confident, protective dominant person, but the kink/sado-maso aspect doesn't even enter into the equation in my search. Further, I think it would be great to meet a dominant who could lure me away from my tendencies to end up with emotionally sadistic partners.

I wholeheartedly agree with your mindset with regards to the emotional aspect, though. It does indeed go much deeper.

An aside: Many of the posts here impress upon the importance of SSC, and I do definetly think that is a topic of great merrit. However, I just want to make clear the intent of this thread was to explore the mindset of the Sadist and his connection with the submissive vs. the masochist-- it was never about me attempting to promote rape or abuse. A submissive may not always necessarily enjoy pain, but they are still consenting to take part in it for the pleasure of their partner.

I know that it is hard to resist hopping on the ethics bandwagon with such a touchy subject, but I'm not speaking of what's right or wrong here... simply just "what is." And I have very much appreciated all the feedback I have recieved to date.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You don't believe, then, that it might feed into a Sadist's desires to inflict pain on on someone who might not be as eager to endure pain (be it physical or emotional,) as the masochist?

I have always thought that was what appealed to people like Hitler, and other such historical figures.

This has been something discussed here before whereby there is a confusion between clinical sadist and D/s sadist...the general consensus is they are two different entities. Both enjoy inflicting pain, but the D/s variety usually prefers a willing victim who derives something from the experience as opposed to one held by force and against their will. IME the D/s variety can derive pleasure from inflicting pain beyond what the masochist/submissive was prepared for, but it ceases to be pleasureable and guilt free for them if it becomes abusive as in crossing the boundaries of consensual and acceptable to the one they are inflicting their art on. While the one in their hands may not enjoy what they do on a pain level, there is an acceptance, often a giving, and in that the knowledge it is feeding something within the submissive.

The clinical sadist on the other hand often loves nothing more than to know they are hurting someone non-consensually, and beyond what they can endure and/or survive safely. I once had an experience with one who I think fits this tag, and it was only when I pretended to enjoy what he was doing that he stopped in disgust and anger and left me alone.

Catalina

 

[sincerely_helene]

This has been something discussed here before whereby there is a confusion between clinical sadist and D/s sadist...the general consensus is they are two different entities. Both enjoy inflicting pain, but the D/s variety usually prefers a willing victim who derives something from the experience as opposed to one held by force and against their will. IME the D/s variety can derive pleasure from inflicting pain beyond what the masochist/submissive was prepared for, but it ceases to be pleasureable and guilt free for them if it becomes abusive as in crossing the boundaries of consensual and acceptable to the one they are inflicting their art on. While the one in their hands may not enjoy what they do on a pain level, there is an acceptance, often a giving, and in that the knowledge it is feeding something within the submissive.

The clinical sadist on the other hand often loves nothing more than to know they are hurting someone non-consensually, and beyond what they can endure and/or survive safely. I once had an experience with one who I think fits this tag, and it was only when I pretended to enjoy what he was doing that he stopped in disgust and anger and left me alone.

Catalina

Ah. I was speaking of Sadists in general.

I can't help but wonder if the Marquis is spinning in his grave and rolling his eyes at us right now, though.

 

[cati]

helene...

I deliberately used the phrase "in my personal opinion" for a reason. It's just the conclusion that I have drawn. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true and is definitely open to discussion.

I stated submissive in a "total power exchange" situation.

I agree, that it may have been my wording, but as you can see I didn't say anything about Dominants being sadists. Since I am not a Dom, I can only offer an opinion from a submissive's perspective.

You stated that many vanilla couples practice D/s without being "concious" of it, I absolutely agree with you, just as it is possible for someone to carry a masochistic trait that they are unaware of.

One can be a sadist by varying degrees and of course the same thing applies for masochists.

What is the difference between one who "takes the pain" for their partner's sake or one who actually enjoys the pain?
Giving one's consent doesn't make a person any less of a masochist.

Who might be more "masochistic" a sub or slave?
____________________

catalina, I have to ask... isn't the clinical sadist and the BDSM lifestyle sadist both modelled after de Sade? Aren't we merely twisting the definition to suite ourselves?

 

[sincerely_helene]

<snip>

I agree, that it may have been my wording, but as you can see I didn't say anything about Dominants being sadists. Since I am not a Dom, I can only offer an opinion from a submissive's perspective.

This was the sentence that lead me astray: "I personally believe that to be truly submissive to one's Dominant one has to be a masochist in some form or another, esp in a TPE relationship."

I might have been reading too much into what was written, but you certainly were stating that you feel submissives must be masochists, no? I'm only trying to understand where you were coming from with that statement.

I enjoy reading your insight very much, and I'm not at all trying to insult you or your obvious intellegence. You offer a fresh perspective I would very much like to grasp.

Edit~ Cati- You seem to have edited your post a few times since
my reply. I can't keep up anymore, though do agree with your comment regarding various definitions.

 

[cati]

hi helene...*s

Thanks for the compliment sis. I just read alot, if only for the sake of understanding myself better. I think what I'm trying to say is this... in a TPE one gives up their personal power and gives total control of the relationship to one's Dominant. For a submissive to do that fully and completely, she/he may be conciously/unconciously opening themselves up to some form of abuse.
Now the alleged abuse may be be mild or severe, emotional, verbal, spiritual (psychological) or physical.
I use the term "abuse" here in relation to masochism. What some here seem to imply is that the difference lies in our "giving consent". It also suggests that because we are involved in a BDSM lifestyle clinical definitions no longer apply.

Maybe thats where my post became a little muddied.
Please note: What I have said here is just food for thought and discussion, nothing else.
chuckles.... sorry I do love that edit button. I keep thinking of new things as I go along. Gotta be abetter way of doing things *s

 

[sincerely_helene]

hi helene...*s

Thanks for the compliment sis. I just read alot, if only for the sake of understanding myself better. I think what I'm trying to say is this... in a TPE one gives up their personal power and gives total control of the relationship to one's Dominant. For a submissive to do that fully and completely, she/he may be conciously/unconciously opening themselves up to some form of abuse.
Now the alleged abuse may be be mild or severe, emotional, verbal, spiritual (psychological) or physical.
I use the term "abuse" here in relation to masochism. What some here seem to imply is that the difference lies in our "giving consent". It also suggests that because we are involved in a BDSM lifestyle clinical definitions no longer apply.

Maybe thats where my post became a little muddied.
Please note: What I have said here is just food for thought and discussion, nothing else.
chuckles.... sorry I do love that edit button. I keep thinking of new things as I go along. Gotta be abetter way of doing things *s

No worries on the edit thing. I'm guilty of that myself, from time to time.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting and nostalgic bump?

 

[catalina_francisco]

helene...


catalina, I have to ask... isn't the clinical sadist and the BDSM lifestyle sadist both modelled after de Sade? Aren't we merely twisting the definition to suite ourselves?

I guess it depends from where you base your definition and draw your information. Sadism, both sexual and otherwise has been documented as being around in literature, history and life, long before de Sade existed...in later times he has become the popular reference point because most know his name and at least a vague idea of who he was, but by no means do I see him as the creator of such pursuits or the one to whom everything can be traced back to.

Catalina