Do Sadists Generally Preffer Submissives to Masochists?

[catalina_francisco]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...ons-in-Cronulla/2005/12/11/1134235936217.html


Catalina I live in Cronulla where the Race Riots took place on Sunday . There is no doubt in my mind from what I witnessed first hand they were racially motivated. I get teary for good reasons when I view the Australian Flag. On Sunday I felt shame. After the 4th consecutive day of helicopters 'buzzing' there was no peace to be found in our normal lovely Community. The people participating may well 'own' the beach but they travelled here to do so. Cronulla consists in major by the retired ,the elderly,young families, sea lovers and all within such of diverse and embraced ethnicity. Roads in and out were blocked, Police in full combat gear , Police Cars, Fire Brigade, Mobile Command Units ,Police on horse back for both crowd control and to permit ambulances in and out with victems of the violence that erupted. Yes its a fact that the two men that bashed the Volunteer Surf Lifesavers were of a Middle Eastern Heritage it does not condone however the conduct of the 'Australians' (ie 'white', tanned , drunk , ignorant, racist, swearing ....charming huh). Interesting to recall as well that all in Australia are infact immigrants with exception of the Aborigine (lets not go there shall we, wouldn't want to make people feel uncomfortable pfffffffffffffffffft)
Apologies to all for mini hijack, I have been upset over this for days and never would have dreamed of posting this on the Boards. Catalina drawing attention to events of recent days and the fact that for now I take no pride on my profile information 'southern beaches' for good reason currently I was unable to resist posting.

I hear you....LOL, I have done my part in educating this side of the world for the last 3+ years on just how our country treats it's indigenous people for real and how embedded in our culture that racism is and will remain as long as governments bury their head in the sand. For the most part, as would be expected, most over here do not realise just how bad it is and how it outstrips the US and the native American issue by miles in its depravity and cover up tactics. Oz gives a whole new meaning to D/s and SM when you look at the history that in reality has changed little except to be covered up more cleverly. The flag I use and honour when possible is the indigenous flag.....had a rubber one attached to my luggage which had made the trip back and forth several times, but lost it on the last trip....have to make a better one which I can attach more permanently.

Catalina

 

[Mr Wolf]

In the movie Joan Of Arc with Milla Jovanovitch; there's a scene at the beginning where the young Joan witnesses her sister being raped and murdered by a toothless, sweaty English soldier.I hate to admit it, but A. I don't know what war that was (100 Years War?) and B. it gave me a raging boner.

You are correct it was during the 100 Years War, 1415, if I remember my history correctly. Those were the days, no bloody lawyers roaming the battlefield asking if you wanted to claim compensation from the 'nasty' soldier who had just kicked your arse... As for Joan will perhaps that is what she was seeking when she decided to go to war??? Was she a closet Domme??? Perhaps a discussion for another day...

 

[Devil's Grin]

Catalina,

From the responses to Helene's initial question, it is clear that some sadists prefer non-masochistic submissives to masochists.

The flip side to the same question is the one I asked earlier on the thread: why would a non-masochistic sub voluntarily choose a sadist?

Well...it's a tricky question. Usually, a person wouldn't be in a relationship for very long if it didn't satisfy them in some way. So even if a person isn't very masocistic, in a literal, direct, "gets excited when he hurts me" kind of way, if they're in a relationship that has a strong sexually sadistic element to it, it is probably satisfying some deep psychological need for them.

Even most masochistic submissives usually have some point beyond which pain stops feeling good and just hurts, and yet, a lot of them have a desire or at least a willingness to go beyond that point some of the time, in the right situation. It's hard to explain.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Even most masochistic submissives usually have some point beyond which pain stops feeling good and just hurts, and yet, a lot of them have a desire or at least a willingness to go beyond that point some of the time, in the right situation. It's hard to explain.

Not that difficult.....it becomes a matter of the mind, the psychological aspects of masochism overtake the possible negative physical reactions so whereas to that point it was a fairly equal balance between physical and psychological pleasure overall, from there on the psyche wins out to compensate the loss of the physical and continue to make it pleasureable and/or desireable on some level.

Catalina

 

[Slutacus]

I used to wonder how much of my liking for pain was pure masochism and how much was emotional need. I never could come to any strong conclusions. But the other day I was weeding through my sex movie clip collection and watching my reactions. The really hard pain scenes got me the wettest (and I wouldn't think that would be so if my need was mostly emotional). I actually had to relieve myself twice during that period! (something of a record for someone on as many libido-inhibiting drugs as I am).

Not that this has anything to do with anything (LOL) but my favorite scene was the one where a guy (think it was "Brutal Master"--he's a minor, but very important player in the pain-movie biz) snubs a cigarette out on the submissive's anus. Her voice goes up and down the scale. Someday... if I get lucky, that will be me.

 

[Marquis]

I used to wonder how much of my liking for pain was pure masochism and how much was emotional need. I never could come to any strong conclusions. But the other day I was weeding through my sex movie clip collection and watching my reactions. The really hard pain scenes got me the wettest (and I wouldn't think that would be so if my need was mostly emotional). I actually had to relieve myself twice during that period! (something of a record for someone on as many libido-inhibiting drugs as I am).

Not that this has anything to do with anything (LOL) but my favorite scene was the one where a guy (think it was "Brutal Master"--he's a minor, but very important player in the pain-movie biz) snubs a cigarette out on the submissive's anus. Her voice goes up and down the scale. Someday... if I get lucky, that will be me.

woah! thats heavy.

 

[MechaBlade]

I'm going strictly by the dictionary here when I ask this.

If the term Sadist means to enjoy inflicting pain, emotionally or physically, would it be logical one would grow frusterated and maybe bored with the masochist? I mean, doesn't it feel like it defeats your purpose to hurt someone who WANTS to be hurt?

Do you think as a Sadist you are more inclined to be attracted to a submissive person instead because they yield to you out of the desire to please, not because they enjoy the pain aspect?

Better yet, do you ever find yourself preffering a dominant to either one of those just for the sheer thrill of the challenge and humiliation?

Heehee. I'm procrastinating a work project.

Firstly, I think submissive must be at least partly masochistic to be any kind of real sub.

But for me, finding a true masochist would be like an artist finding his muse. It's hard to be a dom sometimes because I always fear I'm going to cross the line. The further that line is, the more I can enjoy delivering pain.

 

[MechaBlade]

woah! thats heavy.

nice avatar, you lucky, lucky fuck.

 

[Caitlynne]

Firstly, I think submissive must be at least partly masochistic to be any kind of real sub.

So any kind of [real] submission has to include some form of masochism? Am I following you? I'd hate to misunderstand your meaning here. I do want to understand what a "real" submissive is all about.

Hummm, if I take your meaning right, I think I disagree with you.

Can a submissive and a masochist occupy the same body. You bet ya, and often do to varying degrees. But, I know masochists who aren't the least bit submissive, and I know submissives who aren't the least bit masochistic. Are sub's without any maso traits rare?? meh, I have no idea what the percentages are, I only know that they exist and their Master's are the one's that judge whether or not their submission is real or not.

I think that many of the dominant persuasion can't imagine the act of submission under any other circumstances other than painful, because it would be painful for them to ever submit. They'd suffer mentally and/or emotionally at least, even if not physically. That attitude skews the understanding of submissives quite a bit. They project that discomfort onto ALL submissives, and miss the entire motivation of a submissive as opposed to a masochist.

There is nothing inherently painful about submitting. It is a surrender of will, a desire to serve another, but not necessarily a surrender to the infliction of pain or the desire to suffer. This is an assumption I've seen before. Some people presuppose that the surrender is to be put on a rack and a sadist wails away at her. Or he humiliates her and she loves it. Or he mind fucks her and she loves that kind of pain. Something is gonna hurt, sometime, some place. He inflicts pain and she suffers sweetly. Which of course can and does happen [] BUT, that's not the only model of Dominance and submission, and to think it is .. well is narrow minded and short sighted IMO.

Now, YOU may not feel a submissive is real unless she is in part a masochist, but that is because YOU demand that as a part of her submission, not because she isn't real if she doesn't possess some masochism in some form or another. Another Dominant will have differerent requirements than you.

Which if fine BTW, you can demand anything you want from your submissive, but I'd be careful about labeling what is universally "real" submission and what isn't.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Firstly, I think submissive must be at least partly masochistic to be any kind of real sub.

This reminds me of the guy who told me this week all slaves deserve and have to be punished for no reason other than they are slaves.

Catalina

 

[Caitlynne]

This reminds me of the guy who told me this week all slaves deserve and have to be punished for no reason other than they are slaves.

Catalina

*snicker* I've been told that too... go figure

 

[Marquis]

Firstly, I think submissive must be at least partly masochistic to be any kind of real sub.

I'm with you 150%, old boy.

But for me, finding a true masochist would be like an artist finding his muse. It's hard to be a dom sometimes because I always fear I'm going to cross the line. The further that line is, the more I can enjoy delivering pain.

True again. I take a great deal of pleasure in pushing limits, but there has to be some basic cooperation to begin with. Of course, there is an upper limit as well, where a person can be so weathered even the most profane acts can seem mundane.

 

[Marquis]

nice avatar, you lucky, lucky fuck.

 

[catalina_francisco]

*snicker* I've been told that too... go figure

LOL, helps weed the 'real Doms' from those just hoping they can find someone gullible enough to believe their drivel....I did leave the conversation with F to read through though, without comment from me, and he felt the same and told him, thanks, but no thanks, we will keep looking.

Catalina

 

[alice_underneath]

Firstly, I think submissive must be at least partly masochistic to be any kind of real sub.

Do you also believe that a dominant PYL must be at least partly sadistic to be any kind of real dom?

 

[MechaBlade]

So any kind of [real] submission has to include some form of masochism? Am I following you? I'd hate to misunderstand your meaning here. I do want to understand what a "real" submissive is all about.

I think so. I say that real submission involves a sub more than simply submitting to commands but to receive either physical or at least emotional pain (e.g. humiliation). I doubt any sub could take that pain for long without being somewhat masochistic.

I actually think everyone has some masochism in them. Even I, a dominant, have a small bit of masochism. I think submissives must be more masochistic in order to do what they do and enjoy it.

I don't know, are there any dom/sub relationships where there is no humiliation and no pain, just "Fetch me my dinner and newspaper" domination?

This reminds me of the guy who told me this week all slaves deserve and have to be punished for no reason other than they are slaves.

Catalina

I generally only believe in punishing a slave for disobedience or hesitation. However, sometimes I just like to see her ass turn red, so I "punish" slaves when I feel like it.

True again. I take a great deal of pleasure in pushing limits, but there has to be some basic cooperation to begin with. Of course, there is an upper limit as well, where a person can be so weathered even the most profane acts can seem mundane.

Exactly. I would think non-masochists would not enjoy their limits being pushed. I can't imagine a person with no upper limits, although I could see where that would get boring. Still, I would enjoy a nice domming session with her just to see if I could break her. It would test my creativity.

Do you also believe that a dominant PYL must be at least partly sadistic to be any kind of real dom?

I'm not sure what PYL is, but yes. Real doms must enjoy seeing their slaves squirm. If he is not sadistic, then he must be at least apathetic to his slave receiving minor pain.

 

[graceanne]

I'm not sure what PYL is, but yes. Real doms must enjoy seeing their slaves squirm. If he is not sadistic, then he must be at least apathetic to his slave receiving minor pain.

PYL (pick your label) is a domme, master, top, sir . . .

pyl is a bottom, sub, slave, etc

 

[catalina_francisco]

I generally only believe in punishing a slave for disobedience or hesitation. However, sometimes I just like to see her ass turn red, so I "punish" slaves when I feel like it.

The beauty of our relationship is we don't need to play any games whereby we pretend to 'punish' to answer his sadistic mood or my masochistic needs. If he wants to give pain, he is free to do so openly and honestly without disguising it as anything else....if I need pain, I can express my need and he will choose whether to indulge it or not, but still we do not call it punishment as we acknowledge that SM is part of who we are and we are comfortable with that. If there is need for punishment, it happens and is called and responded to as punishment. The jerk I was talking to had this idea he had to call anything he did punishment and justify it by saying it was something all slaves needed for no reason other than they were a slave....that to me and F was someone who was not safe or secure in his own skin so he wasn't getting hold of mine.

Catalina

Catalina

 

[sincerely_helene]

I don't know, Mechablade. I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I have met a few of submissive personality who have subjected themselves to physical and/or emotional pain, simply to avoid conflict, or please another-- NOT because they enjoy being hurt in any regard.

On the flip side, I have met those with dominant personas who strive to protect those more submissive than themselves from being hurt. They are the furthest thing from Sadistic. What we are born as or evolve into is seperate from what we enjoy doing.

If you look up the term "submissive," in the dictionary, it directs you to the term "submit", which is defined as one who surrenders to other's authority. I don't think it outright states or even implies masochistic tendencies. Actually, quite the opposite, though I may be wrong. http://webster.com/dictionary/submit
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=submit


~Edit~ I was going to bring in politics and abusive relationships into the conversation, but that's another thread for another day.

 

[Slutacus]

On the flip side, I have met those with dominant personas who strive to protect those more submissive than themselves from being hurt. They are the furthest thing from Sadistic.

I've met this sort of dominant too, the ones with very strong protective urges and care for other people, known a couple of them quite well, and the ones I happened to knew well were also very sexually sadistic with their significant others. You may not have been implying this, but I don't think the two traits contradict each other. I don't know if I said it in this thread or not, but this is a repeat: sadism for some people is a very strong (and giving--although I'm not implying they don't get anything out of it!) expression of love.

The abusive relationships issue is a whole other can of worms and I'm glad you didn't bring it up here, but it sure deserves to be discussed (and re-discussed).

 

[Slutacus]

The jerk I was talking to had this idea he had to call anything he did punishment and justify it by saying it was something all slaves needed for no reason other than they were a slave....that to me and F was someone who was not safe or secure in his own skin so he wasn't getting hold of mine.

"The Jerk" also sounds like he's read too many fantasy-bdsm porn novels--and thought they were real because they were misfiled in the psychology section of his used bookstore! If I remember right, the idea that slaves "need punishment for no other reason than they are slaves" is expressed in most of the John Norman books.

It's actually a sexy idea to fantasize about, if you are masochistic, because, in a sense, masochistic people _do_ need and crave punishment simply because they are masochistic. Translating this into a real-life relationship, even a casual or temporary one, is bit tricky though. Requires lots of smarts on both sides, I think.

The word "punishment" is extremely loaded for many people. It's like a ticking bomb disguised as a birthday cake or a perfectly-done rib steak. Hot as hell, but very prone to misunderstanding. I am no exception. I crave punishment in all senses of that word at times, because I have an emotional masochistic streak as well as a physical one but it's very easy for me to flip-flop on it and consider it abuse.

 

[sincerely_helene]

I've met this sort of dominant too, the ones with very strong protective urges and care for other people, known a couple of them quite well, and the ones I happened to knew well were also very sexually sadistic with their significant others. You may not have been implying this, but I don't think the two traits contradict each other. I don't know if I said it in this thread or not, but this is a repeat: sadism for some people is a very strong (and giving--although I'm not implying they don't get anything out of it!) expression of love.

The abusive relationships issue is a whole other can of worms and I'm glad you didn't bring it up here, but it sure deserves to be discussed (and re-discussed).

Whoa?! I certainly don't mean to imply I feel that being dominant or submissive cannot possibly go hand in hand with being sadistic or masochistic. I should have made that clearer, maybe, but I don't recall ever stating anything that could be taken as such because there would be too much evidence against that arguement, quite frankly.

I'm only trying to open peoples minds to the idea that one's dominant/ submissive persona does not necessarily reflect whether or they are into either of those things. Too often the lack of seperation leads to assumptions which really bother me. I'm very sick of men assuming because I tend towards a more submissive nature that means I crave to be flogged or engage in anal penetration.

Not to say I wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't be for the reason that "I enjoy pain." Does that clear things up?

P.S. As per the last comment, I agree. Hence why it wasn't brought up in this thread.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's actually a sexy idea to fantasize about, if you are masochistic, because, in a sense, masochistic people _do_ need and crave punishment simply because they are masochistic.

I'm not sure I agree. I am what some seem to think of as an extreme masochist, but in no way do I crave or fantasise punishment...in fact to be punished means I have done something very wrong and displeasing, so that does not push my good feeling buttons. Pain on the other hand can have me dripping in a milisecond, and to go without too long can get me in quite an agitated and restless state, but feeding the masochistic need for pain is IMHO no where near punishment in terms of understanding or executing.

Catalina

 

[John Doe]

I wouldn't.

 

[Slutacus]

I'm not sure I agree. I am what some seem to think of as an extreme masochist, but in no way do I crave or fantasise punishment...in fact to be punished means I have done something very wrong and displeasing, so that does not push my good feeling buttons. Pain on the other hand can have me dripping in a milisecond, and to go without too long can get me in quite an agitated and restless state, but feeding the masochistic need for pain is IMHO no where near punishment in terms of understanding or executing.

Catalina

The word 'punishment' is such a trickster. In that paragraph you quoted I did mean punishment=pain, even though that wasn't clear, not punishment="you have been wrong and bad and so deserve this!"