Dominant - Love Involved

[lil_slave_rose]

Hey slave_rose, sorry I didn't reply to your post earlier. I saw that I was going to need to think about my reply and I didn't want to rush it.



Personally, I find the whole "submission as gift" idea to be extremely patronizing to the submissive. Then again, you're talking to a guy who thinks chauvinism and chivalry are euphemisms.

Let's take a look at a few examples from this thread:







How can you not find this idea that submissives are inherently vulnerable demeaning?

I certainly find the idea that dominants are any less vulnerable to be, as Netzach pointed out, objectifying.

I've had my heart crushed by subs on many, many occasions. I've been led into making some bad decisions by subs and there have been subs who have made me want to hang up my floggers for good.

I don't look at subs as any more helpless than doms at protecting their interests, they just have a different way of going about it.

Look, I have NO issue with using any of these ideas in play, at all. The way I work is not for everyone, but I am infinitely more comfortable in a relationship setting when we have FIRST established that we are both comfortable in who we are as individuals and what we have to offer the other. Once the mutual respect is established, then I don't mind becoming her god or having her as my slave. That way we can both spend time being human beings when we don't have the energy or inclination to be a character.

In fact, you may find that the more comfortable you become as a human being, the more you may begin to resemble the character you aspire to be. In a full, well-rounded and honest way, with a foundation that won't crack at the first introduction of real-world pressure.

I think the ideas are an interesting reflection on the BDSM dating world. While a submissive is not inherently a vulnerable thing, an 18 year old girl is pretty fucking vulnerable, particularly in relation to the 40+ year old man who is trying to convince her how much he values her "gift of submission".




Click me

Saying one is more or less valid is a little silly because that doesn't have any meaning. What seems to be the point of contention here is whether they can be discussed as parallels and I really do not think they can be, at all.

Someone who is experienced in real life BDSM might be terrible at maintaining a satisfying online experience, and someone with lots of online experience might be terrible at keeping a real life relationship together.

It's like an avid Counterstrike fan telling a SWAT officer that their is no difference in the "validity" of their experience. This may be somewhat true, as long as you recognize that you're probably better off with the first guy at your Lan party and the second guy if you've been taken hostage.

However, if the topic of discussion is a comparison on the advantages/disadvantages of the AK-47 vs. the M-16, I'd appreciate it if the Counterstrike player was humble enough to mention that his opinion is derived from an albeit very realistic video game.

No one is trying to say that the feelings you may have during an online or long distance relationship aren't real. I'm sure for many people, the feelings they share with their online lovers might come to be more real than what they feel for lovers that they live with. That's not the point.

We're not talking about how excited you get when Master's name lights up on your buddylist. We're talking about the challenges of a relationship, and the medium in which that relationship is conducted makes a TREMENDOUS and MEANINGFUL difference.

hey there Marquis. thank You for this Post. You really made sense to me, while i don't agree with everything that You've said, You've defiantly made me think more than any of the other posts on this thread. i think maybe the word 'gift' is being seen differently for most on here than it is seen to me. i don't see it as meaning that because my submission is a gift to Him that He then has to treat me like a princess so that i don't take back that gift. i just simply mean that it's something within me that i will not just give away to anyone...does that make sense? it's really hard to explain.

i am far from a weak person who 'needs to be taken care of' i've seen those types of submissives, the ones who find a Master to fulfill their every need and cater to their every whim because they are 'vulnerable' and they can't do things for themselves. if that works for them that's great, but it's just not what i'm looking for. i do agree that Dom's are just as vulnerable as submissives. they can get hurt just as bad. we all give alot in this type of relationship and i agree to say one takes a bigger risk than the other is quite silly. BUT if we are talking about physical harm, then i would have to say that the submissive does take a bigger risk. am i making sense? again thank You for taking the time to address my post. You did make perfect sense to me

 

[Netzach]

I think we all agree that the notion that by just "being" a sub you are "rare and amazing" is hogwash.

My own experience has been that since admitting to myself that I am a submissive, I've had a couple of low points that were more low than anything I've ever experienced after the ending of a vanilla relationship. For me, allowing that side of myself to be exposed made me, well, more vulnerable than I ever had been. When you are the sub, you give up the control and the power in the relationship - and to me, that's pretty scary. Whereas the Dominant taps into his or her strength, no? Then again, I can also see how for someone who has always identified as a sensitive individual, it would be particularly scary to admit to a sadistic streak.

In any case, I'm citing what I've felt, but for all I know, it's just the newness of this for me. Or other stresses going on in my life: the stakes are certainly higher at the moment. Or I'm just very needy and high-maintenance. I can cop to that. However, my experience that the lows of submission are so much lower than the lows in a vanilla situation makes FM's comments really resonate with me.

I've been on the bottom and on the top in relationships that end badly.

As bad as feeling exposed is, when you are the Dominant you are quite exposed AND you have the added burden of feeling like an idiot because you were supposed to be in control. So nobody talks about it. I certainly didn't.

When you are a submissive and it ends badly it plays into our collective fetishization of poor vulnerable subbie, so everyone talks about it. Ad infinitum.

 

[callinectes]

I've been on the bottom and on the top in relationships that end badly.

As bad as feeling exposed is, when you are the Dominant you are quite exposed AND you have the added burden of feeling like an idiot because you were supposed to be in control. So nobody talks about it. I certainly didn't.

When you are a submissive and it ends badly it plays into our collective fetishization of poor vulnerable subbie, so everyone talks about it. Ad infinitum.

Huh, I never thought of it that way Netz. For what it's worth, I've always felt no one person is responsible for a relationship ending badly (barring obvious circumstances). I certainly wouldn't consider the Dominant to be an idiot. Sure, you are supposed to be in control but you can only work with what you have, ya know? This goes back to the thread a while back on who is responsible for the success of a D/s relationship. IMHO, both parties are 100% responsible.

 

[intothewoods]

I've been on the bottom and on the top in relationships that end badly.

As bad as feeling exposed is, when you are the Dominant you are quite exposed AND you have the added burden of feeling like an idiot because you were supposed to be in control. So nobody talks about it. I certainly didn't.

I can see that would be hard.

When you are a submissive and it ends badly it plays into our collective fetishization of poor vulnerable subbie, so everyone talks about it. Ad infinitum.

Well, okay, but all the talking about it in the world didn't change how I was feeling. Not just shitty. Images of hurting myself popped into my ahead all the time. But almost cartoonish - not like, oh, I want to do this...But wtf - I had never in my life experienced anything like this. I have "my head on straight," as I think you said. The only thing I could figure is that after having all of these thoughts of D/s scenes, to have it suddenly end, my brain didn't know how what to do with the urges. Or something. I don't know - like I said, it's not necessarily the case that being submissive made me more vulnerable. But I was terrified to try again after that.

 

[Marquis]

I've been on the bottom and on the top in relationships that end badly.

As bad as feeling exposed is, when you are the Dominant you are quite exposed AND you have the added burden of feeling like an idiot because you were supposed to be in control. So nobody talks about it. I certainly didn't.

When you are a submissive and it ends badly it plays into our collective fetishization of poor vulnerable subbie, so everyone talks about it. Ad infinitum.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!!!!


It's funny 'cause it's true.

 

[FurryFury]

In general I'd say women are most vulnerable in relationships regardless of kink or lack thereof. This is a societal rule. It doesn't apply to every single person and it's just my opinion.

OTOH, woman are also very strong in ways they often don't recognize. While men may be more quiet about their relationship pains. The whole strong and silent archetype can be IMO very damaging to men and indeed to relationships.

When I care about someone and things go to hell I can put up with it but when there is a break it's different. Also when communication doesn't work I tend to feel helpless and hopeless.

Mind you I've never acted on it. As in, I've never actually tried to kill myself. However, I do go to a dark place. I tend to get depressed, imagine it is all my fault and hate myself. Suicide then becomes one of my favorite ideas. Is this because I'm a sub?

No. Not in my opinion. It could in part be because I have trouble truly loving and accepting my flaws and merits. It could be I put too much importance on other people and how they feel about me. It could be that it's part ego that makes me feel soooo responsible. I mean why am I the one at blame in my own mind?

In any case, I suspect I'd feel the same way no matter which "side of the whip" I was on.

People are vulnerable. Or they are closed off. Closed off people don't tend to form deep relationships with others. I'd personally hate to be that way.

But, overall I know this, I am a survivor. I can adapt endlessly. I always have something new to learn. This is what makes life interesting.

Fury

 

[Netzach]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!!!!


It's funny 'cause it's true.

I thought you might have some mileage here.

Re: callinectes, yeah I know I'm not an idiot, I know I'm a worthwhile human who got burned, but you *feel* like an idiot. You *feel* like everything you've set up has been ineffectual when you can't compel someone to obey something as simple as "stay".

And there's again, this immense peer pressure to *not let them see you sweat* at any cost. I don't think anyone is really understanding at what price this comes if they're still on about how much worse this is for submissive people...

 

[the captians wench]

I thought you might have some mileage here.

Re: callinectes, yeah I know I'm not an idiot, I know I'm a worthwhile human who got burned, but you *feel* like an idiot. You *feel* like everything you've set up has been ineffectual when you can't compel someone to obey something as simple as "stay".

And there's again, this immense peer pressure to *not let them see you sweat* at any cost. I don't think anyone is really understanding at what price this comes if they're still on about how much worse this is for submissive people...

I can totally get this.

I have a domly friend who's "taking a break from the scene" because he's had a couple of bad relationships in a row and his confidence is a little shot. We've talked a little bit about how any sort of show in lack of confidence when searching for a sub can lead to bad or no results. I think subs tend to but this god like persona on to domly types and if they flinch even slightly then all of a sudden they are not a true dom. Of course I'm sure there's some of this on the one dom to another level, but I don't have any experience with that kind of interaction.

So because this friend has had his confidence take a major hit he's droping out of the scene for a while until he can get his head back. But this kind of makes me wonder about the since that this makes. If you have the starts of depression forming would removing something important to you and your being be a good idea? Then again, can you really dom some one when you aren't feeling 100% in control of yourself, let alone some one else.....

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

.....

 

[callinectes]

I thought you might have some mileage here.

Re: callinectes, yeah I know I'm not an idiot, I know I'm a worthwhile human who got burned, but you *feel* like an idiot. You *feel* like everything you've set up has been ineffectual when you can't compel someone to obey something as simple as "stay".

And there's again, this immense peer pressure to *not let them see you sweat* at any cost. I don't think anyone is really understanding at what price this comes if they're still on about how much worse this is for submissive people...

I hear ya Netzach. I can imagine the pressure is enormous, it does seem Dominants are held (unfairly) to a different standard in that regard. I'm glad you pointed it out..it's something I will keep in mind.

 

[Marquis]

I thought you might have some mileage here.

Re: callinectes, yeah I know I'm not an idiot, I know I'm a worthwhile human who got burned, but you *feel* like an idiot. You *feel* like everything you've set up has been ineffectual when you can't compel someone to obey something as simple as "stay".

And there's again, this immense peer pressure to *not let them see you sweat* at any cost. I don't think anyone is really understanding at what price this comes if they're still on about how much worse this is for submissive people...

This shit needs to be in a book yo, for real.

 

[Marquis]

.....

Hey, I wish you hadn't edited this post, it was a good one.

 

[Marquis]

.....

OH SNAP!!!!

I just read your sig line and realized not only have I seen your avatar in person before, but I know the photographer! Lochai is a member of my local group.

 

[FurryFury]

Hey, I wish you hadn't edited this post, it was a good one.

*pouts*

I missed it.

Fury

 

[JMohegan]

I don't understand how we got to "vulnerability." Submission to a mere mortal is a risky endeavor. Like skydiving, battle, driving fast and gambling.

Yet I've never heard "increased vulnerability" applied to skydivers, marines, stock car drivers or high rollers. Yeah, you are liable to get hurt and burnt. So if anything encouraging people in this position to use their BRAINS and stay rational would be safety advice, not to crank on the romantic feelies full on.

But here's the bottom line.

Is a guy more likely to get in a girl's panties when talking about how special rare and amazing she is, or when he's telling her to be smart and calling her out on not being smart?

The bottom line indeed.

I once had a discussion on pushing limits with a D/s couple whom I had just met. The D mentioned a recent event in which he had commanded the s to strip in front of his friends. He described the incident with cloying language, including the explanation that pushing her limits was "helping her grow in submission."

I remember standing there, thinking - you've gotta be fucking kidding me.

But I waited until the D and I were alone before I asked him about the real reason behind the stripping incident, which he quickly acknowledged. He got off on the control, her embarrassment, the reaction of his friends, etc.

Having prompted him to state the obvious, I then asked him: What's up with the "grow in submission" euphemism thing?

With a smirk and a conspiratorial slap on my shoulder, he said: "They respond better to shit like that, dontcha know?"

Which brings us to -

In my experience there seems to be a very limited number of situations where you'll hear exhortations of the "giftness" of submission:

a) From an inexperienced dom or sub who is still, to some degree, having a hard time with the idea of D/s and desperately looking for a framework that makes it "ok"

b) From a manipulative or dishonest dom or sub, who should know better but panders to the understanding of their hopeful partner

c) After a really, and I mean a REALLY good blowjob

My observation is that a & b are nearly always true. Scratch the surface of the romanticized language and you'll either find a person who is struggling with guilt & confusion, or a guy trying to get what he wants the old-fashioned way - i.e., by feeding her a really "great" line.

As for to c - ha, ha!

All kidding aside, though, c prompts the observation that many couples exchange romantic words and overblown phrases at times of peak emotion or bliss. No problem.

But circling back to Netzach's analogy - there's a difference between the stuff you'd expect to hear the skydiver say after he makes a great landing, and the stuff he should be talking about when he's learning to use his gear.

 

[JMohegan]

As bad as feeling exposed is, when you are the Dominant you are quite exposed AND you have the added burden of feeling like an idiot because you were supposed to be in control. So nobody talks about it. I certainly didn't.

When you are a submissive and it ends badly it plays into our collective fetishization of poor vulnerable subbie, so everyone talks about it. Ad infinitum.

Re: callinectes, yeah I know I'm not an idiot, I know I'm a worthwhile human who got burned, but you *feel* like an idiot. You *feel* like everything you've set up has been ineffectual when you can't compel someone to obey something as simple as "stay".

And there's again, this immense peer pressure to *not let them see you sweat* at any cost. I don't think anyone is really understanding at what price this comes if they're still on about how much worse this is for submissive people...

This is all so incredibly true.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Apologies for mini hijack............

Hey, I wish you hadn't edited this post, it was a good one.

Thank you Marquis. I removed it because it felt self serving . More importantly it conflicted with rules from the former relationship. An amazing legacy now redundant still carried forward , old habits die hard irrespect of common sense and or alliance.

OH SNAP!!!!
I just read your sig line and realized not only have I seen your avatar in person before, but I know the photographer! Lochai is a member of my local group.

Cool guy Lochai, we have shared some correspondence. He lurks in Lit occasionally as well to the best of my knowledge. Possible you know esclave and her Master then.
This thread covers some of it.

 

[Marquis]

He lurks in Lit occasionally

Get the fuck outta here!

 

[CutieMouse]

Having prompted him to state the obvious, I then asked him: What's up with the "grow in submission" euphemism thing?

With a smirk and a conspiratorial slap on my shoulder, he said: "They respond better to shit like that, dontcha know?"

*Quietly thanks the gods, that within the first three conversations, the man she fell in Love with told her the "submission is a gift" line, is complete bullsh*t, and then backed up his statement with several logical arguments.*


Rebecca, you are an incredibly strong and graceful woman...

 

[callinectes]

When I first started reading about D/s I was all caught up in the "submission is a gift" thing. As somone above pointed out, if online resources are all you have at your disposal (which was the case for me) you are probably going to end up with that line of thinking. Now that I have been in a relationship for six months I am finally seeing that is BS. But it sure did take me a long time to figure it out. Obviously I am not a quick study at this D/s stuff. LOL Daddy and I have never talked about this gift business but I feel certain he would not be down with it.

 

[JMohegan]

When I first started reading about D/s I was all caught up in the "submission is a gift" thing. As somone above pointed out, if online resources are all you have at your disposal (which was the case for me) you are probably going to end up with that line of thinking. Now that I have been in a relationship for six months I am finally seeing that is BS. But it sure did take me a long time to figure it out. Obviously I am not a quick study at this D/s stuff. LOL Daddy and I have never talked about this gift business but I feel certain he would not be down with it.

No one is "a quick study at this D/s stuff".

Perhaps some would claim to be, but the boast belies the accuracy of the claim itself.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Rebecca, you are an incredibly strong and graceful woman...

Thank you Miss Cutie and here I was thinking my wording was cryptic enough as not to invite any such validation.....:smiles:

 

[CutieMouse]

Thank you Miss Cutie and here I was thinking my wording was cryptic enough as not to invite any such validation.....:smiles:

I'm pretty good at reading stuff through my own personal cryptic filter.

 

[Zinfandel]

I realize this issue is a few days old, but after reading this thread I wanted to comment on one thing, especially given that there are new posters showing up all the time.

For the record, I've never read any condescention into JM's posts. He has commented on issues in my own life that I have posted about, and I have appreciated his questions and comments. I have been impressed with his insight and commentary, and look forward to reading his thoughts on various topics - they often give me a different perspective from which to consider an issue.

I have not interacted with Netzach at all, but I feel the same way about her posts - they always come across to me as reasonable and rational.

The way I see it, it's all just conversation. No matter our situations, we can all benefit from the perspective of others, even if their position is 180 degrees from our own.

 

[sister76]

Well, I really hope my dom can do me right.

I am not a weak person in any way, unless in front of my man.

I have just learned about the sub/dom thing, but have always wanted it. I just really hope the one I have now is for real. It's kind of like a first love type of thing for me. I just feel like I will be disappointed somehow, although I have loved the experience more than anything in my whole life.

Who knows?!