FemDom, Tantric Ritual and Kali

[Arkhilokhus]

And then one night a very real surge of energy entered me. It rose from the base of my spine, shot up my back and hit my skull with incredible force. I could see colors and forms like a waterfall raining down around me. And I felt my mother's presence, as my body realigned itself. I could feel subtle shifts in every muscle and joint, and I knew I was being healed at some fundamental level.

This is a textbook description of the Kundalini experience (the Lesser Kan and Li for those Taoists following at home ), at least as I've heard it described numerous other times in several different contexts.

I may have more later, but I must dash. ::sigh::

I love this thread, and everyone posting in it!

 

[eastern sun]

This is a textbook description of the Kundalini experience (the Lesser Kan and Li for those Taoists following at home ), at least as I've heard it described numerous other times in several different contexts.

I may have more later, but I must dash. ::sigh::

I love this thread, and everyone posting in it!

Yes, that's how I interpreted it too. Since it happened I have been able to manifest things very easily, which can be good or bad depending on the clarity of my intention. I feel like I must be very diligent and focussed or I can wreak havoc.

I want to find a teacher who can help me understand this experience, and what to do next, but don't even know where to begin to look. Or how to talk about it in more conventional spiritual communities given its BDSM roots.

I also feel sometimes like I'm full of shit, dancing in a full-blown fantasy, and need to shelve the esoteric for the mundane in order to stay grounded and stable.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

....

i'm a little dissapointed you didn't bother to translate my french joke.

Its probably horrible grammar, as I got Babel fish to do it for me;



"my love; the bathroom is down the hall to the right"

I have been known to call people "mon vieille asperge", which sounds all sexy until you realize that it means "my old asparagus."

EVerything sounds sexy in french. N'est-ce pas?

Only if you promise to speak French to me all the while.

ahem.

[domme in a Mood today]

I don't remember subs having the inherent right to make dommes promise things.

[/excessively toppy]

that said, I can easily promise to do everything in my power to push every one of your buttons, just as soon as I know where they are. I'm like that.

*whew* I know all this flirting is a bit off topic, but I think an occasional little breather from all the high-level conceptual discussion is a good thing in this case.

This is a textbook description of the Kundalini experience (the Lesser Kan and Li for those Taoists following at home ), at least as I've heard it described numerous other times in several different contexts.

I may have more later, but I must dash. ::sigh::

I love this thread, and everyone posting in it!

Yeah. *sigh* major collective crush.

You're right. That's classic. And if you have read much of easternsun's work, it will be obvious that she's highly evolved and a natural for this sort of endeavor.

Yes, that's how I interpreted it too. Since it happened I have been able to manifest things very easily, which can be good or bad depending on the clarity of my intention. I feel like I must be very diligent and focussed or I can wreak havoc.

I want to find a teacher who can help me understand this experience, and what to do next, but don't even know where to begin to look. Or how to talk about it in more conventional spiritual communities given its BDSM roots.

I also feel sometimes like I'm full of shit, dancing in a full-blown fantasy, and need to shelve the esoteric for the mundane in order to stay grounded and stable.

Well there's a reasonable book to start with that would help explain some of that experience, and that's Genevieve Lewis Paulson's Kundalini and the Chakras.

At the bottom line, though, that experience is between you and your very individual Goddess. I am hesitant to put my own interpretation all over it, except to say, "you're absolutely right; the Goddess was there."

As to the mundane versus the spiritual, there's an interesting analog in the way many of the early Dakinis are portrayed. They are not Brahmins, going round pompously presenting themselves as Teachers and Gurus. They are often not even known by their names, but rather by their occupations, which are thoroughly mundane: the Arrow Maker. The Pig-Herder. The Wine-Maker. They're lower caste regular people, these teachers. Courtesans, restaurant owners, that sort of thing.

The assumption (which is a bottom line idea within the Tantric sects) is that they are using their everyday tasks to create a context for their own enlightenment, and that sexual teachings are only a part of that, another way to use mundane experience to create illumination. The wine-maker was frustrated by the fact that in the traditional view, only Brahmins had the luxury to become enlightened, since they could sit around and meditate all day. The rest of us, of course, have to make a living. A travelling Yogi suggested that she meditate on the nature of her task, and how it reflected the essential concepts she wanted to pursue. And Bob's yer uncle, she found illumination in wine making and shortly thereafter became an acknowledged Dakini.

The comparison is obvious, and of course all over Zen Buddhism as well. Illumination comes from complete attendance to the simple tasks, without distraction: chop wood. Carry water. Feed the kids. Make the tea.

There is nothing incompatible between the mundane and the mysteries. In fact, in the most mundane things (cooking, herding pigs, making arrows, fucking) is where the most immediate potential lies for illumination.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

Yes, that's how I interpreted it too. Since it happened I have been able to manifest things very easily, which can be good or bad depending on the clarity of my intention. I feel like I must be very diligent and focussed or I can wreak havoc.

I want to find a teacher who can help me understand this experience, and what to do next, but don't even know where to begin to look. Or how to talk about it in more conventional spiritual communities given its BDSM roots.

I can only suggest Glenn Morris' books: Path Notes of an American Ninja Master, Sgadow Strategies of an American Ninja Master, and Martial Arts Madness. Morris is a psychologist and student of Budokan Taijutsu, which used to be called Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu (it's actually an amalgam of nine different ninjutsu and bujutsu schools). As the titles indicate, it basically details his martial art experiences, but he does include a good bit of detail on his experience with Kundalini, as well as those of his students, many of whom he guided through that particular ordeal. He does talk about issues of energy balance and control, ex post facto, which you might find valuable. However, it's all sprinkled through his work, so it might be abit like wondering through one of those wonderful used book stores, never knowing exactly what you'll find.

ahem.

[domme in a Mood today]

I don't remember subs having the inherent right to make dommes promise things.

[/excessively toppy]

Oh, my. You're quite right; please allow me to rephrase.

If it pleases you, My Lady, I would very much enjoy hearing you speak to me in French while you generously instruct me in the proper use of the male ass, as well as during any service I could provide to you.

*whew* I know all this flirting is a bit off topic, but I think an occasional little breather from all the high-level conceptual discussion is a good thing in this case.

I do hope no one is annoyed or put off by it, but I quite enjoy the symposium atmosphere that's starting to develop. It's very appropriate considering the subject matter, imo. And, after all, it's not for no reason that Aphrodite is called "laughter loving"!

You're right. That's classic. And if you have read much of easternsun's work, it will be obvious that she's highly evolved and a natural for this sort of endeavor.

*bites lip, fidgeting for about ten minutes while muttering, "I don't need to quibble about every little thing" over and over until he blurts out* Okay, I'm really, really sorry, but I hate the use of "evolved". Species evolve, individuals develop.

I know, I'm awful and annoying. I can't help it - have pity on me.

*crawls under the nearest rock*

 

[eastern sun]

Well there's a reasonable book to start with that would help explain some of that experience, and that's Genevieve Lewis Paulson's Kundalini and the Chakras.

At the bottom line, though, that experience is between you and your very individual Goddess. I am hesitant to put my own interpretation all over it, except to say, "you're absolutely right; the Goddess was there."

As to the mundane versus the spiritual, there's an interesting analog in the way many of the early Dakinis are portrayed. They are not Brahmins, going round pompously presenting themselves as Teachers and Gurus. They are often not even known by their names, but rather by their occupations, which are thoroughly mundane: the Arrow Maker. The Pig-Herder. The Wine-Maker. They're lower caste regular people, these teachers. Courtesans, restaurant owners, that sort of thing.

The assumption (which is a bottom line idea within the Tantric sects) is that they are using their everyday tasks to create a context for their own enlightenment, and that sexual teachings are only a part of that, another way to use mundane experience to create illumination. The wine-maker was frustrated by the fact that in the traditional view, only Brahmins had the luxury to become enlightened, since they could sit around and meditate all day. The rest of us, of course, have to make a living. A travelling Yogi suggested that she meditate on the nature of her task, and how it reflected the essential concepts she wanted to pursue. And Bob's yer uncle, she found illumination in wine making and shortly thereafter became an acknowledged Dakini.

The comparison is obvious, and of course all over Zen Buddhism as well. Illumination comes from complete attendance to the simple tasks, without distraction: chop wood. Carry water. Feed the kids. Make the tea.

There is nothing incompatible between the mundane and the mysteries. In fact, in the most mundane things (cooking, herding pigs, making arrows, fucking) is where the most immediate potential lies for illumination.

Thank you, bijou. You are right. This is my take on it too.

How come the great spiritual masters - the ones who started out in worldly endeavors - got a pass on leaving their responsibilities behind?

 

[Homburg]

How come the great spiritual masters - the ones who started out in worldly endeavors - got a pass on leaving their responsibilities behind?

They were men.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

I tend to think of development as physical. Ideas, spiritual beliefs, spititual practices develop through our youth, when we continuously learn and add to them, and evolve over the course of experience, by which the belief is not wholly changed, but refined.

sooo.... i disagree, but don't wholly care.

It's just semantics.

on reflection i disagree with this load of crap also.

Well, perhaps you'll indulge me while I explain my reasoning, and you can tell me where you think I've gone wrong or fallen into mere hairsplitting?

Evolution is the process by which a species, through random mutation, gradually, over many generations, transforms into another distinct species. The individuals do not change in that way; they are either born with the mutation or not.

Individuals do change, however, but only in ways that they have the existing potential to do so. An acorn nut cannot become a pine tree.

Consequently, I want to draw a distinction between change rooted in potential and the sort of transformation that genuinely changes the individual. This is why I think it's important, because I do believe in transformation. In fact, I would say that is a sine qua non of spirituality (one reason why I don't consider most of what we've been discussing to be spiritual). But I go back to Bijou and her statement that you cannot become something you're not already, at least potentially. That's not change, not in any essential way. It may be deep and meaningful and purifying, and often is, but it's more becoming what you already are.

 

[SlaveNano]

i really really want to talk about my few experiences with fairie magic...

i'm not sure this is the thread for it. (there may not be a thread for it)


In the interest of not derailing the thread further from the original (and very fascinating) subject... i'm gonna go play video games instead.

I'm intrigued. Do tell us more.

Still following this thread and just about hanging on in there! Respect for the quality and erudition of all the posts here.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

Eastern sun, I was wondering if I could bring up something you said in your thread. You mentioned that there were times when your husband would simply tell you to get him off, and that you found it difficult to operate without a sort of structure to help you. I was wondering if something like that might be a form of men leading women in a sort of initiatory way. What I'm getting from your description is an image of your husband acting in a strongly Sivan way, and stressing you to incarnate Sakti in response. Does that fit in with your experience at all?

More generally, I just happened to recall something I thought was germane to the discussion. Early on in my therapy, I employed a Jungian technique of imagining that a particular complex, in my case the anima, was before me and speaking to her. When i did so, I imagined a dark haired goddess in flowing dark robes, and asked her what she wanted. I was in the beginning stages of getting reacquainted with her, and thought that a good way to start. The image transformed into a wizened hag with a hateful glare, who exclaimed gleefully, "I want you to SUFFER!"

Well, I was rather disconcerted. Knowing that this was a part of myself I had strongly suppressed for many years and not treated well, I concluded that she hated me (this was also a period where any attempt at masturbation was met with strong images of, and this sounds ridiculous but was frightening then, giant vaginae with rows of sharp teeth and intense feelings of fear and nausea).

However, when I brought the experience to my therapist, she had a different interpretation. She noted that suffering is part of the creative process, especially in the sense of giving birth, and that accepting that suffering and moving through it is both necessary and something I tend to avoid. It was when I started to do that, to allow myself to suffer, that I really began to become friends with my anima again.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Oh, my. You're quite right; please allow me to rephrase.

If it pleases you, My Lady, I would very much enjoy hearing you speak to me in French while you generously instruct me in the proper use of the male ass, as well as during any service I could provide to you.

Mais bien sur, cheri. Il me satisfait pour tu offrir ce petit cadeau, tandis que je tu montre votre utilite vrais.

*bites lip, fidgeting for about ten minutes while muttering, "I don't need to quibble about every little thing" over and over until he blurts out* Okay, I'm really, really sorry, but I hate the use of "evolved". Species evolve, individuals develop.

I know, I'm awful and annoying. I can't help it - have pity on me.

*crawls under the nearest rock*

No no, sugarplum. I love a smartass sub, especially when he's right, since it inspires defensiveness in me, which I can then refine into punitive amusement.

They were men.

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it.

Don't forget, they also generally had wealth. Either from family, from being skilled at soliciting donations, or from noble patronage.

Meh. Writers did it too. Chaucer wouldn't have made it without the payoffs for writing little fawning poems to rich people.

i really really want to talk about my few experiences with fairie magic...

i'm not sure this is the thread for it. (there may not be a thread for it)

If not here, where? And if not you, who? go to it, doll. I certainly didn't set this thing up with any real rules.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

Mais bien sur, cheri. Il me satisfait pour tu offrir ce petit cadeau, tandis que je tu montre votre utilite vrais.

How lovely! I have no idea what you're saying, having no French and only a little Latin, and I refuse to push something so beautiful through the butchery of an online translater.

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it.

Don't forget, they also generally had wealth. Either from family, from being skilled at soliciting donations, or from noble patronage.

Meh. Writers did it too. Chaucer wouldn't have made it without the payoffs for writing little fawning poems to rich people.

Also, men were generally in positions of authority in religious structures. Sure, there were the Julians of Norwich, but they generally weren't in the position to teach the way, say, a Meister Eckart was. So we don't know them, or much about them. Exceptions abound, of course (St. Teresa of Avila especially comes to mind) but I think it holds as a general rule.

 

[eastern sun]

. . . . . . . . . . .

 

[eastern sun]

Eastern sun, I was wondering if I could bring up something you said in your thread. You mentioned that there were times when your husband would simply tell you to get him off, and that you found it difficult to operate without a sort of structure to help you. I was wondering if something like that might be a form of men leading women in a sort of initiatory way. What I'm getting from your description is an image of your husband acting in a strongly Sivan way, and stressing you to incarnate Sakti in response. Does that fit in with your experience at all?

He is not remotely interested in this aspect of my internal experience. He would rather I incarnate the image of his desires, so I usually keep this to myself.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

How lovely! I have no idea what you're saying, having no French and only a little Latin, and I refuse to push something so beautiful through the butchery of an online translater.

Loosely translated, it means, But of course, darling. i'm happy to offer you that little gift, while I show you what you're for...

*snip*



ask her why she calls you sugarplum?







(it's because you've been dancing in her head)

Okay, well there's that too.

And it's also in my private lexicon as a nice little epithet for a certain part of the male anatomy of which I am immensely fond.

For starters; i'm a bit of an attention whore.

i define myself that way as well, but watch this cool trick I came up with:

A whore gives it away for free, right? Loves it so much he or she offers it round to any and all takers. So an attention whore gives attention away for free.

Within that context, you just come to me if you want attention, and I'll give you some. Hell, that's what my bistro is all about.

One thing that occured to me though. My own disposition colors most (but not all) spirits i encounter as some type of fairie or another. So even if Shiva, or Kali, or one of the other Goddeses mentioned came to visit me in some way, i would likely still call them a "Fairy Queen" of one stripe or another.

I'm trying to imagine what Kali might do if you called Her a fairy queen.

*giggling*

I bet it wouldn't be pretty.

In a conversation i had with one of my former mistresses, she pressed me to define the difference between fairies and ghosts. To me, a ghost is a "spirit thingie" that regrets dying, while a fairie was never born.

beyond that, i prefer not to put too strict a definition on such things that i cannot personally quantify, be they an abstract idea or daily nuisance.

okmovietimebye.

The category of "fairy" is pretty huge. Most of the itsy bitsy things that people think of as fairies are what I might call elementals. And yes, I wouldn't consider them related to humans or aspects of dead humans.

Wish I had more time but today is horribly wonderfully busy. I'm thinking I may hijack this again tomorrow and talk subtle anatomy.

 

[Shankara20]

"my old asparagus."

served with hollandaise and fresh roasted red pepper if you please...



Why the hell am I just finding this thread???

I ride a very large motorcycle I purchased in 1994 that I call Kali - because she can kill me at any moment.

The first two genital piercings I ever received in 1999 were hafada's I dedicated to Mother Goddess while I was sill a bottom.

I am walking out the door and will not return until Monday night.

Why the hell am I just finding this thread???

 

[Homburg]

served with hollandaise and fresh roasted red pepper if you please...



Why the hell am I just finding this thread???

I ride a very large motorcycle I purchased in 1994 that I call Kali - because she can kill me at any moment.

The first two genital piercings I ever received in 1999 were hafada's I dedicated to Mother Goddess while I was sill a bottom.

I am walking out the door and will not return until Monday night.

Why the hell am I just finding this thread???

I've been wondering where you were. I figured you were staying otu of it for personal reasons.

 

[Homburg]

oops! Shiva is a HE.

shows how much i know.

At least shiva is peaceful enough to laugh off being called a "fairy queen"... right?

Siva is not all that peaceful. In the Trimurtic view, he represents destruction. It is the destruction that precedes rebirth, such a wildfire sweeping a plain to allow for new growth, but it is still destruction. In some texts, he is a retake of Rudra, the Vedic storm god, and a right bastard. He is Siva the archer, the one who kills the darkness.

He's pretty damned fierce and warrior-like in many incarnations. Kali gets to see a different side of him, I guess. Parallels the experience of many here, no?

Though, all that said, Siva is so popular, and Hinduism so unfocused, that you can find a Siva to represent pretty much anything. So you'll find a peaceful, mellow Siva in there. And you will also find a hermaphrodite Siva too. So I guess, in at least that aspect, you're half right.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

*snip*

*snip*


on further reflection i'll bet Kali would be much more the type interested in suplication than "friendship and understanding."

Things like that are not fun to deal with.

On the contrary, supplication can be wonderful. Kneeling, one hand on her knee, looking up with pleading eyes... *sighs*

 

[unpredictablebijou]

t


In any case, thank you Bijou, for offering your... services.

BTW; sluts offer it for free, whores get paid (i know the difference well)

Attention slut has a nice ring to it though, perhaps i'll call myself that henceforth, enless i should get famous or something...

good night.

ahem.
[glaring in a domly way]

I am starting to think I need to get more officially dommy. It quite shocks me, the amount of semantic argument I'm getting from the ostensible subs around here.

How bout this. Y'all wanna argue grammar and terminology, that's fine, but you need to address me as "Most Honorable Thrice-Revered Empress Mistress Lady bijou The Leather Queen of Kansas" before you do so.

And I've had this slut-whore dialogue before. By dictionary definition, a whore is indeed someone who has sex for money. And a slut is one who has sex for free. However, as soon as you use the term "attention whore" you have violated the dictionary definition anyway, and you're using the word to mean someone who wants attention and will do anything to get it, not someone who will give attention in exchange for money. Right? Hell, I didn't invent the phrase attention whore. I merely modified it to be more beautiful. So don't play semantics with me, youngster, cause I spent a shitload of meaningless money on the equivalent of two B.A.s in English and linguistics, and I leap energetically at the chance to use my completely pointless education.

I cite Noam Chomsky here, as well. Language is organic, constantly shifting, and defined within the context of communication. If you understood my meaning, and if we have communicated effectively, then by definition my grammar is correct. That goes for the whole sex/gender thing as well, Mr. Smartass Arkhilokus.

harrumph.

/all toppy.
Can't act like I'm serious for any longer than that. heh.

 

[Homburg]

"Most Honorable Thrice-Revered Empress Mistress Lady bijou The Leather Queen of Kansas"

You forgot to put "cute" somewhere in there, Sadie.



(ETA: The implicit irony of this post is hopefully clear. If not, consider yourselves informed.)

 

[unpredictablebijou]

On the contrary, supplication can be wonderful. Kneeling, one hand on her knee, looking up with pleading eyes... *sighs*

Rawr.

So since we're apparently all going to get interviewed by a bright-eyed college student any minute, let's talk ritual.

Two kinds, for a starter. There is ritual in the general sense: a set of activities that is repeated, possibly standardized, in order to create a particular state, set or setting. "Bedtime rituals" for children, or a Sunday morning sex-and-pastry ritual. (big fan of that one.)

The other sort we might consider as "religious ritual." It contains the former definition, but adds some sort of cosmology, or focus on spirituality, or something. I'm just brainstorming here, alright?

So there are 'collaring' rituals, for example. Ceremonies, designed to codify and affirm a relationship. I suspect most of those do not have a religious aspect to them as such, although there may be exceptions.

And then there are the rituals like the ones that SlaveNano has generously shared in here, and in his stories. Definite religious overtones, deliberately transformative at a spiritual and cosmological level. Clearly more than just a set of organized behaviors.

Am I splitting hairs in differentiating between "spiritual and transformative" ritual and "mundane" ones? Are they all on the same scale?

More personally, can we share some ideas about BDSM rituals in here? Can we invent some, beyond the Kali rite in the original essay? If you were framing that rite, for example, a mystery play concerning Sakti in her aspect as Kali, and Siva as her transformed slave and playtoy, in a ritualized context, what would you do? Would you have an invocation prayer? A form of communion for the congregation? Hymns? Deacons or deaconesses? Perform baptisms?

And would there be meaning in writing some more individual rites as well, again compared perhaps to some of the things that SlaveNano has shared? (darling Nano, allow me to thank you again for being so descriptive; it has helped a lot).

What's Leather Church like for you, in your best daydreams? And what meaning does it have, if any?

 

[SlaveNano]

Rawr.

More personally, can we share some ideas about BDSM rituals in here? Can we invent some, beyond the Kali rite in the original essay? If you were framing that rite, for example, a mystery play concerning Sakti in her aspect as Kali, and Siva as her transformed slave and playtoy, in a ritualized context, what would you do? Would you have an invocation prayer? A form of communion for the congregation? Hymns? Deacons or deaconesses? Perform baptisms?

That sounds like a fun challenge. Unfortunately, its my bed time now and I'm not quite up for it. And then I'm away for a couple days. When I get back perhaps I'll turn my attention to coming up with something. Remember I'm in the UK, you guys are just getting going when its way past my bedtime! Then, when I look again there's another dozen post knocking around with all these interesting ideas. I have trouble keeping up with you!

 

[unpredictablebijou]

You forgot to put "cute" somewhere in there, Sadie.



(ETA: The implicit irony of this post is hopefully clear. If not, consider yourselves informed.)

LMAO!

 

[Arkhilokhus]

Am I splitting hairs in differentiating between "spiritual and transformative" ritual and "mundane" ones? Are they all on the same scale?

I'm still smarting from being called an "obstensible sub", so I'll avoid asking about precise definitions of "religious". Instead, I'll mention that there are no religious acts per se, but religious meanings invested into particular acts. Hence the particular subjectivity of religious ritual.

I think of eastern sun, whose husband doesn't see any spiritual meaning in his acts, yet she obviously does (please correct me if I misspeak, ES).

Having said that, it does seem like there would be particular techniques for encouraging participants to see the ritual in religious or spiritual or transformative terms. SlaveNano's Goddess is obviously skilled at doing just that, and I wonder how much of her rituals would be effective for someone else. I have a suspicion much of what she does is tailored to his personal psychology (again, feel free to correct me).

I think I'll stop here for now, and give some thought to your other questions.

 

[Homburg]

LMAO!

I figured you'd enjoy that. Glad to see I'm not off. Well, no more off than usual at least.